American Frigates

[Diamondback]

Between the Naval Action forum (they stole my Stretching Sculpts content here, so I feel fair-game returning the favor) and a few other places, I've started putting together data and drawings trying to see if we can cluster enough ships together to rate a sculpt each of 24's, 28's, 32's and 18-pdr's. We know we need a mainline version of Constitution...

So we'll start with the 32's and Mediums, since there's less to work with. I'm including the 12pdr 28 Virginia, since she was the size of a 12pdr 32, and same with Providence and sister Trumbull.

12pdr 32's in actual rate or "de facto," interestingly most of these uprated to 12pdr 36's:
1776 Hancock 41.63x10.82, 24x12# + 10x6# (becomes 1778 HMS Iris, 1781 FNS Iris)
1776 Raleigh 40.06x10.49, 26x12# + 6x12# (becomes 1778 HMS Raleigh, QD/FC downgraded to 6#)
1776 Randolph 40.46x10.52, 26x12# + 10x6#
1776 Warren 40.26x10.49, 12x18# & 14x12# + 8x9#
1776 Providence 38.57x10.26, 26x12 + 6x6# (becomes HMS Providence)
1776 Trumbull - no hull data but similar to Providence, 24x12# + 6x6#
1776 Virginia 38.49x10.62, 24x9# + 4x9# (becomes HMS Virginia, refit as 26x12/6x6 32-gunner)
1799 Essex 42.24x11.37, 26x12# + 10x6#
1800 New York 44.32x11.61, 26x18# + 20(?)x32#crde
1799 Adams 34.44x10.36, 24x12# + 4x6#
1799 General Greene 37.87x10.57, 24x12# + 6x6#
1799 John Adams 38.94x10.13, 24x12# + 6x24#crde
1799 Boston 40.84x10.52, 24x12# + 8x9#
My gut would say if the plans come out sufficiently similar, we could approximate all of these except Adams with one sculpt and then differentiate them via maneuver decks and log stats. Adams is closer to the size of a USN nominal-24, so again assuming the profiles fit I would slide her onto that sculpt with buffed stats. Confederacy is not discussed here despite her 12# battery because she was the size of an 18pdr and sister Alliance carried 18's, so she goes with her sister and gets a stat nerf. New York is a bit bigger than the others, about the size of a Concorde or a Mahonesa. IF these all fit as a "cluster," this gives us an even dozen US-flag ships or 6 SKU's, plus 4 more British ships for 2 SKU's.





Allen's redrawing of 1800 New York appears very similar to Philadelphia

1799 Boston


Alliance 46.02x10.97, 28x18#
Confederacy (becomes HMS Confederate) 47.17x11.28, 26x12# (probably just loaded whatever they could get, like Warren's mixed UD battery)
Constellation 49.99x12.5,
Congress 49.99x12.5
Philadelphia 47.85x11.89
Chesapeake (becomes HMS Chesapeake) 46.33x12.47

Based on what we see here, my thought would be to cluster all six of these hulls onto one sculpt and differentiate them in the gun lines. This would give us 8 ships or 4 double-sided SKU's. So this would hit four major American groups with just two sculpts... what's the verdict of those more knowledgeable and with better eyes--is this something worth including as I update my Proposed Roadmap for Ares, or is it back to the drawing board?

[Bligh]

Thanks for this comprehensive look at the posibilities for this group of ships. I can't help but think that your approach is correct. Ares are far more likely to listen if we propose something with the least amount of nit picking on our part and a general sculpt for a group of ships without us being too pernickety may well work. Cards are much easy and cheaper to adjust than sculpts. I think one reason we did not get better reception with Wings was that there were as many different suggestions for new sculpts as ther were members.

Rob.

[Dobbs]

What about using the Constitution with modified stats for the 1781 South Carolina?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indien_(1778)

[Diamondback]

Dobbs, that's on the table as an option, but I'd really prefer to see a blueprint first--24-pounders were planned for a followup post (which just got turned into this one), as were 9-pounder 24's-and-smaller (a future one).

Problem with a Mainline Humphreys Superfrigate is between President, United States, Guerriere, Java and South Carolina that only gives us two and a half SKU's, and HMS President gives us a half-SKU that can't be paired with any of the others unless we slipstream the experimental British 24pdr's HMS Leander and/or HMS Newcastle.

[Dobbs]

What about Pomone?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fren..._Pomone_(1787)

She seems longer than Constitution, which is good for the mini.

Endymion or her sisters might be a possibility too?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endymion-class_frigate

[Diamondback]

Possible, but I'm really hoping to get Pomone and the Endymions their own separate sculpt. :) Here again, we need two names per flag even though I'm going to suggest breaking that rule by doing Essex with both 1799 and 1812 versions like we did with "historical and What-If" Bonhomme Richard.

[Diamondback]

The 24's--no plans except 1777 Boston, but I'll add any I find here and welcome any help. I'm skeptical of the short lengths and high length/beam ratios for Deane and Connecticut, so I'm breaking them out with the no-data ships.



"Knowns"
24 1776 Delaware/1777 HMS Delaware 35.67x10.02 22x12#
24 1777 Boston/1780 HMS Charlestown 34.82x9.75 24x12
24 1778 Deane 96'nd [keel? Boston keel is 94'] x 32' 24x12
24 1798 Ganges 35.46x9.55
24 1798 George Washington 32.92x9.91
24 1799 Connecticut 93'nd [keel? Boston keel is 94'] x 31'
The steeper "banana curve" of Boston's topline looks rather odd compared to normal US practice, almost like a throwback to earlier times in Europe

"Unknowns"
24 1798 Merrimack NO DATA
24 1798 Portsmouth NO DATA
For a battery of 24x12# I would expect Deane to be in the ballpark of Boston's size, so I'm wondering if her length and Connecticut's aren't keel. EDIT: Boston's keel was 94' and beam 32', so I would guess Deane and Connecticut to be pretty close in size. I'd also say in game-package terms 1799 Adams should cluster here rather than with the 12pdr 32's.

[Bligh]

The 24's--no plans except 1777 Boston, but I'll add any I find here and welcome any help. I'm skeptical of the short lengths and high length/beam ratios for Deane and Connecticut, so I'm breaking them out with the no-data ships.




The steeper "banana curve" of Boston's topline looks rather odd compared to normal US practice, almost like a throwback to earlier times in Europe

Rather an attractive change though, DB and it does give some variety.
Rob.

[Naharaht]

A long time ago there was a company called Micro Matrix, which produced 1/1000th scale metal sailing ship kits. They appear for sale on eBay on rare occasions. There were some American ships in their range. I do not know whether it would be worthwhile trying to track down what happened to the company.

[Bligh]

Cheers Dave.
I will look into it.
Rob.

[Bligh]

Apparently the manufacturers who were formerly Micro Matrix are know known as the Little Ship Company trading in Wargame Model Ships at 1-2400 scale. They are available through Stonewall Figures, who only seem to be stocking modern ships anyway.

Rob.

[Naharaht]

I wonder what happened to their 1:1000 scale moulds.

[Bligh]

If they have been junked it will be a great pity Dave.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

If they have been junked it will be a great pity Dave.
Rob.

Indeed. I'm tempted to suggest that, if the tooling still exists, maybe Ares should reach out to them about licensing their engineering designs--why reinvent the wheel if you can adapt something satisfactory and preexisting?

[Bligh]

Another excellent idea DB.
Rob.

[Naharaht]

If the moulds have gone, I suppose that it might be possible to 3D laser scan the remaining models and then 3D print them.

[Bligh]

Do you think that would be feasible Dave?
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Suggestion... given that President was found to be weaker of hull than her sisters even with Live Oak, I would propose to give her an extra box but reduced burthen compared to Constitution or United States--still should be stronger than a European 18-pdr 44 or even the few Euro 24-pdr's, but not as good as her four sisters.

[Naharaht]

Do you think that would be feasible Dave?
Rob.

I do not know, Rob. I do not know anyone with that sort of equipment. Would any of our expert model makers know?

[Diamondback]

As far as I know, 3d scanning equipment is still very expensive tech, not yet on the home or even "pro-sumer" market.

[Bligh]

Thanks DB. I guess that knocks whatever slim chance we had on the head there then.
Rob.

[TexaS]

If you scan something and then print it scale doesn't really matter of the original.
Basically you could scan any ship in any scale and then you'd have to construct masts for the printer and scale. I'm pretty sure you'd have to do that anyway as there's big difference between casting a metal mast/sail and 3D-printing. There's even differences between different ways of 3D-printing stuff.

[Bligh]

Do you have any contacts who do scanning Jonas?
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Addiional draughts, possibly available from Smithsonian, found in Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy:
South Carolina - plate IV
1748 HMS Boston 24 - p. 43
USS New York 36 - plan 10

[TexaS]

No Rob. Sorry. Only people with printers.

[Diamondback]

Paint and markings from Chapelle's History of the American Sailing Navy:

It is rather curious that the painting of the ships of the Navy was left to the commander's taste for a very long period; at least no regulations concerning this have been found prior to the '30's. In the War of 1812, the American frigates were usually black, with a bright yellow streak along the gun ports, British fashion. This streak was usually as wide as the ports were high. The 74's had three such streaks if spar-decked, and two if the spar-deck waist was unarmed. Some vessels also had a narrow band on the mouldings, below the upper deck ports. Some frigates had rather wide yellow bands, reaching from a line about the height of the main deck to a couple of inches above the main-deck gun ports. During the War of 1812, the bands were extended forward on the cutwater. The port covers were often the same color as the band, and not checkerboarded in the Nelson style. The guns and port sills were black, tompions white, black, or red. About 1825, the yellow streaks or bands became very light in color and gradually they became white. Small craft, schooners, and brigs, began to use streaks that were only half the depth of the ports; these had their lower edge at port-sill height and ran the whole length of the hull, out onto the cutwater. The inside of the bulwarks, from waterways to rail, was usually red or brown, until the late '30's, when white became common. Decks were left "bright" and holystoned in the Navy throughout the sailing-ship period. Deck furniture and the sills of deck structures were red, but later, when bulwarks became white, they were painted the same color. Mastheads, bowsprit, and royal masts in small vessels were painted black; the lower masts and topmasts of large ships were black until well into the '30's, when white was used. Billetheads were yellow, or green and white. Finally, about 1840, the billets were often painted white without gilding. By 1836 some of the small men-of-war, schooners and brigantines, began to omit the port band entirely, retaining only a yellow or white moulding line in some; in others the side was wholly black.

And some data that will help with making a ship-sloop sculpt work, same source:
Doughty was given complete freedom in the designs of the new ships, apparently, as the scanty correspondence indicates that no extensive directions were given him. It is highly probable that the designs of the sloops were intended to be improvements of the earlier Wasp and Hornet, of increased size and power. As a result, the two sloop designs of 1813 were on the same dimensions—117' 11'' between perpendiculars, 31' 6" moulded beam, and 14' 6" depth of hold—but were not of the same model. The Argus, Erie, and Ontario drew 4' 8'' more water at the sternpost than at the stem, while Wasp, Peacock, and Frolic had a difference of but i' 9''. As designed, the two classes had the same appearance above the water, except that the Argus class had no quarter galleries or quarter badges.

Implication: Wasp (I), Hornet, Erie, Ontario, Wasp (II), Peacock and Frolic can all share a sculpt. Gives us HMS Peacock (ex- old Wasp) and HMS Florida as reflags, four SKU's with an odd-man-out. Argus was burned on the stocks unfinished so doesn't count.

[Bligh]

Very useful DB thanks.
I have printed this off for my records. i can see from that my white masts will have to go black for starters. I'm just glad I only have six American ships thus far!
Rob.

[Dobbs]

Garr! I like my white masts, they're staying! I suppose technically this means that the period Constitution was buff and black. Huh, that takes some adjustment.

[Diamondback]

Garr! I like my white masts, they're staying! I suppose technically this means that the period Constitution was buff and black. Huh, that takes some adjustment.

Worth noting that IIRC Chapelle says that was "the norm" but individual ships may have varied. My suggestion would be start with Chapelle as a base and then consult period paintings and text accounts of the specific ship in question. If the specific conflicts with the general, go with the specific.

[Bligh]

Sounds like a good compromise DB. It also gives a bit if variety to what would otherwise make a rather boring colour palette.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Sounds like a good compromise DB. It also gives a bit if variety to what would otherwise make a rather boring colour palette.
Rob.

There's always the wisdom of Captain Barbossa: "The Code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules."

[Bligh]

Yes! I remember that one DB.
Very good and I will take it under consideration before I go wild with my paintbrush, and delay the start of my new campaign even further.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

A conservative difference would be "with" or "without" the stripes being extended onto the cutwater for War of 1812. (I suspect that was done to tell our ships from yours once at medium range.)

[Diamondback]

So, here's the latest proposed revision on the US roadmap...

--74-gun SOL - Special Pack of USS Independence, USS Washington and USS Franklin (can't get enough ships for regular release)
--44/58-gun 24pdr superfrigate #1 - existing Constitution SP, will need re-release occasionally
-- " #2- adapt Constitution SP for mainline release as USS President/USS Guerriere, USS United States/USS Java, HMS President/?HMS Newcastle
--36-38-gun 18-pdr frigate - USS Congress/USS Chesapeake, USS Constellation/USS Philadelphia, either USS New York/? or USS Alliance/USS Confederacy (my preference would be do these last two as an SP instead, packing extra logs for the other ships at Flamborough Head)
--~28-36-gun 12pdr frigate - pair up such that both ships in a pair are either CN or USN flag rather than mixed. Some of these are technically 26's/28's/30's, but we can massage the gun lines to deal with that. Adams (not John Adams) is much smaller than the others, so I'm thinking I should look for a cluster of 24's and slipstream her in as a heavier-gunned version of that sculpt. Could also split into two sculpts.
-----SKU 1 AWI Continental Navy: any two of 1776 Hancock, 1776 Raleigh, 1776 Randolph, 1776 Warren, 1776 Providence, 1776 Trumbull, 1776 Virginia
-----SKU 2 Reflags: any two UK of 1778 HMS Iris, 1778 HMS Raleigh, HMS Providence, HMS Virginia, 1781 FNS Iris
-----SKU 3 postwar USN w/cutwater stripe: 1799 Essex and 1799 Boston (active in War of 1812)
-----SKU 4 postwar USN w/o cutwater stripe: 1799 John Adams and 1799 General Greene (functionally out-of-play before 1812)
--24's to small 28's
-----SKU 1 AWI Continental Navy: any two of 1776 Delaware, 1777 Boston, 1778 Deane
-----SKU 2 Reflags: any two of 1777 HMS Delaware, 1780 HMS Charlestown
-----SKU 3 postwar USN w/o cutwater stripe: any two of 1798 Ganges, 1798 George Washington, 1799 Adams, 1799 Connecticut
--18-22 heavy ship-sloops
-----SKU 1 no cutwater stripes: any two of 1805 USS Hornet (brig rig), 1807 USS Wasp (brig rig), USS Erie, USS Ontario, USS Frolic, 1813 USS Wasp, USS Peacock
-----SKU 2 with cutwater stripes: any OTHER two of 1805 USS Hornet (ship rig), 1807 USS Wasp (ship rig), USS Erie, USS Ontario, USS Frolic, 1813 USS Wasp, USS Peacock
-----SKU 3 UK reflags: HMS Peacock, HMS Florida

brigs - ? Wasp and Hornet as-built won't carry a sculpt all by themselves.

schooners - Enterprise and Syren while iconic are only ~26m deck-length, just over 2mm too short unless they cast hull and lid as one piece, and even then we need 4 more--worse yet, Enterprise later rerigs as a brig.

[Bligh]

Very comprehensive DB.
I just hope that Ares take up your reccomendations. That would keep our purses busy for some time.
Rob.

[TexaS]

Your post made me think of those old wish lists for new sculpts. Sails are still a bit too large and doesn't really fit small ships, but that doesn't stop us from trying.

In what I would like to see from Ares in new sculpts is actually what's been discussed a year ago or so. True merchantmen that's more for the use as objectives than a fighting force and a Xebec or two. I would like to see a flat deck brig as small as they can make it. It could also be remade into a corvette by us who like to mix things up, which would be nice. Just taking the masts from the corvette we have and exchange them for the masts on this brig would quite easily give you two new ships.

[Bligh]

As a member of the tinker with ships club I like your idea also Jonas.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Your post made me think of those old wish lists for new sculpts. Sails are still a bit too large and doesn't really fit small ships, but that doesn't stop us from trying.

In what I would like to see from Ares in new sculpts is actually what's been discussed a year ago or so. True merchantmen that's more for the use as objectives than a fighting force and a Xebec or two. I would like to see a flat deck brig as small as they can make it. It could also be remade into a corvette by us who like to mix things up, which would be nice. Just taking the masts from the corvette we have and exchange them for the masts on this brig would quite easily give you two new ships.

Jonas, the British Cruizer-class brig also had two hulls built with full ship rig (HMS's Snake and Victor, one later converted to standard Cruizer brig-rig), so that sculpt would almost perfectly address your needs if Ares tooled both ship and brig mast-sockets into the same hull.

[TexaS]

Why wish for just new masts when I can whish for a whole new vessel that can give me four vessels instead of two?

[DeRuyter]

Worth noting that IIRC Chapelle says that was "the norm" but individual ships may have varied. My suggestion would be start with Chapelle as a base and then consult period paintings and text accounts of the specific ship in question. If the specific conflicts with the general, go with the specific.

Exactly so. I don't recall seeing a period painting with black lower masts for example. Of note the French practice was to change mast colours depending on where the ship was stationed. I think Dobbs is safe with the white masts and black spars! I also think that you began to see white stripes much earlier. Of course for the Constitution there is always the contemporary model made by the crew for Captain Hull:

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/20.../a-model-ship/

White lower masts, green bulwarks and white stripe just as she is painted now.

[Diamondback]

Why wish for just new masts when I can whish for a whole new vessel that can give me four vessels instead of two?

Another complication is... well, I've been looking into the whalers taken by USS Essex and in the 200- to 300-ton weight class they come in just too small for Ares to sculpt with the hard 28-meter minimum deck-length. (A very large and historically significant class looks like it JUST misses by HALF a meter... which is half a millimeter in manufacturing terms.)

[Bligh]

What's half a mm between friends. They have fudged more than that on some models already, so why not the Whalers. For the authenti button counters there is always a dremel to hand!
Rob.

[Bligh]

Thanks for drawing our attention to that article Eric. I for one found it most enlightening.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

When I say "just" I mean a 300t brig is typically in about the 20-25m range. It was a warship that missed by a whisker.

[Bligh]

Ah! Thanks for the clarification DB.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Good news! Enterprise may be back on the menu, but we're gonna have to cheat a little... her 1805 rebuild comes in at 28.27m, JUST over the line. 1799 Experiment didn't get that rebuild nor did 1803 Vixen... Vixen and Enterprise were both rerigged as brigs later (Vixen was only a schooner for one year), but I'm thinking if we can get a drawing use the 1805 Enterprise hull as a base with sockets for both brig and schooner rigging, plug in schooner masts for two SKU's as Enterprise/Vixen and Experiment/unknown Side B and brig masts for the third SKU as Enterprise/Vixen.

[Diamondback]

So, found some options to add American unrateds--these are my preliminary thoughts for two composite sculpts.

Brigs:~240-300t Argus/Syren/?Rattlesnake (all three UK reflag), Spark (similar size) - two SKU's for the American ships, one UK reflags
Chippewa/Boxer/Saranac are similar to one another but 360-390t; not appreciably larger in length/beam than the smaller trio
Schooners: Enterprise, Experiment, Syren, Nautilus, Torch (similar but not identical), Spitfire (ditto) -- Enterprise/Syren/Nautilus rerigged as brigs, Syren and Nautilus captured by UK (Siren not commissioned, Nautilus->HMS Emulous)

This group of schooners has several possible packs--three US flag schooner-rig and one brig-rig, leaving loose ends of the third rerig and Emulous.

[Diamondback]

Not a frigate, but USS Ranger is very close in size, tonnage and general layout to a Swan. I'd consider her an acceptable reprint if we can find another similar ship in the Revolutionary era...

[Bligh]

That certainly gives us a lot of scope for a bit of personalizing as well as just a reflag job DB.
Keep up the good work.
Rob.

[DeRuyter]

So, found some options to add American unrateds--these are my preliminary thoughts for two composite sculpts.

Brigs:~240-300t Argus/Syren/?Rattlesnake (all three UK reflag), Spark (similar size) - two SKU's for the American ships, one UK reflags
Chippewa/Boxer/Saranac are similar to one another but 360-390t; not appreciably larger in length/beam than the smaller trio
Schooners: Enterprise, Experiment, Syren, Nautilus, Torch (similar but not identical), Spitfire (ditto) -- Enterprise/Syren/Nautilus rerigged as brigs, Syren and Nautilus captured by UK (Siren not commissioned, Nautilus->HMS Emulous)

This group of schooners has several possible packs--three US flag schooner-rig and one brig-rig, leaving loose ends of the third rerig and Emulous.

I was looking here and on the 1812 thread but could not find any lake ships. Niagara/Lawrence would of course be iconic. Do they not make the size cut, I thought they were larger than the Cruzier class brigs? There are larger ships from the lakes that might work in the US scheme like Saratoga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_(1814) or General Pike