UPDATE: $110K cracked, "Weathervanes for Everyone!" LOL $12,100 to go for rulers... y'all better start comin' up with some more stretch goals awful fast. :D
UPDATE: $110K cracked, "Weathervanes for Everyone!" LOL $12,100 to go for rulers... y'all better start comin' up with some more stretch goals awful fast. :D
Well, they have me working on another one already and I knew they have others lined up as well.
Deck caddies or the equivalent of cockpits? Captain or admiral cards? Shore installations or shore parties?Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj
At this stage, I imagine most anything will be welcome.
I find it amazing that of 532 backers only 1 has gone for the French gunner.
The next stretch goal is announced. Terrain pack #1. Looking good so far, I wonder how many they initially planned on having.
That is because the (EB) Commodore, while definitely a nice gesture from Ares, actually does not solve much at all. The 30$ discount on the postage and the discount on the cost is nice, but still, multiply the sum (package + add-ons + postage) by 1.20 to get the total we EU residents have to pay after the customs officers hit us with VAT.
Still bloody awful compared to what you USA residents have to pay. And it gets worse with each and every add-on.
Question for the sake of clarity — As of this post, the Captain level nets you:
• 4 Exclusive KS-only ship packs
• 1 starter set (4 ships, counters, etc)
• 8 non-exclusive ship packs
• Attitude Marker (wood)
• Ruler (wood)
• Game mat
• Terrain pack
So that's 16 ships total, plus other goodies. Is that correct? I'm still deliberating if I physically have enough money to upgrade to the $260 captain level (from my Early Bird Lieutenant), but it seems like if the inventory above is true, the Captain level is the best deal (early bird or not)
Yes I think Captains level is the right one for a serious player. For me Commadore is better!
Just my opinion but I think we need something a bit more spectacular for the next stretch goal. Two items made of MDF and then some card board 2D terrain makes me think the best is yet to come - hopefully. This is especially true if your believe the tracker ($700K).
While this is likely to be a moot point. I believe that at this moment we are still just short of the target for the inclusion of the Ruler and about 16K short of the target for the Terrain Pack. Other than that I believe that you are correct.
Last edited by RichardPF; 03-11-2013 at 14:44.
I have actually been data scraping from the KS site quite a bit and, as time goes by, I am seeing a lot of situations where for example, during a one or two minute period the count at a lower pledge level goes down 1 while the count at a higher level goes up 1.
While it is not possible from the outside to track individuals to know what is happening for sure, it does appear that there is quite a bit of pledge upgrading of that nature going on.
Spectacular new stretch goals would be great and I agree that it will take something like that to hit a total in the ballpark of 700K.
Ares might be in a bit of an exciting and scary position here.
I believe that this is Ares first experience with Kickstarter and as such they really had no way of knowing exactly what to expect from it.
No doubt hitting 400% of their project goal in the first week is well beyond anything that they might have expected.
The fact that the Kickstarter project timeframe was set at 6 weeks might indicate this as well.
Creating high value stretch rewards to fill the remaining time and maintain excitment could be quite a challenge for them.
The fact that the HMS Victory and USS Constitution are not slotted to be available until Jan '14ish would indicate to me that finding sufficient production bandwidth for additional products in a reasonable timeframe may be a challenge as well.
It's a pity they couldn't have started production once the funding was met, of course tey don't really have the money at that point and things could change ... but this is worse than waiting for your holiday to come round. :rolleyes:
If they really want to push this KS then, as you say, they'll need to come up with some special stretch goals. Maybe foam harbours, similar to the foam hangers for the WoG planes to protect the miniatures may be an interim goal that could be out-sourced to a third party.
I think that the trick would be to come up with a supplier that they can trust to supply a quality item in a reasonable time frame at a locked in price and do this all at warp speed so that it can be announced on the KS page without risk of not being able to deliver. My guess is that one of their first goals was to minimize the shipping cost push back by adding products that could be included at no cost to at least the higher pledge levels without breaking the bank on overall cost and profitability. Shipping costs and taxes are what they are and in a competitive marketplace I am not surprised that there were no magic solutions to that issue. The clear plastic hangars available from Keith would seem a natural line extension. That type of enclosure is a standard deal for a ship model; even more so than an aircraft. Most likely Keith has been working on this already.
The total hit $125,000 and then dropped back under. Should be back there soon now though...
Last edited by RichardPF; 03-11-2013 at 16:40. Reason: Total dropped back under 125,000
Captain, permission to issue the men an extra rum ration, with a wedge of lime?
Huzzah!
We'll have to wait on that. The total dropped back under. Maybe if you watered it down to make weak grog for now.
Hey, around here if I bought at brick-and-mortar the sales tax would add another 10%... and if I bought from Amazon or an online store with a 'physical presence' here I'd have to pay it on the shipping too.
And over $125,000 once again!
Once the $140k mark is reached, that is a correct list Keegan. In fact, the Capt. level will see more bonuses and upgrade options as the campaign continues.
That is one of the goals of the campaign. Since there is a limited number of possible backers out there, get the ones that have already pledged to upgrade to the next higher level is the best way to increase funding. Ares get's more money and the players that upgrade get more stuff.
Right you are sir. They still have to make all the planes for WGF and WGS and I'm pretty sure the same factory makes there WotR miniatures as well. If their Galaxy KS is successful as well, I would bet they will start looking for a 2nd factory to work with.
Production bandwidth is an issue a lot of the miniatures type KS projects are running into. Especially in the resin/metal casting industry. I was talking to a sculptor friend of mine and she pointed out that when these KS projects get setup, the companies line up the artists, sculptors, and casters with a set number of pieces and get a deadline quote based on that. The the KS does well and hits a lot of stretch goals that add in more miniatures... which where not factored into the timetable for delivery. The money part is no issue, as that is all coming from the KS project, but there is no real way to squeeze more production out of a facility if if is at max already (possibly with other KS projects causing the same issues).
:D
KS First Week Recap
Based on the actual start time that the KS project went live, it has just finished the first week of pledging.
Here is a summary of the data that I collected for that period.
3/5 3/6 3/7 3/8 3/9 3/10 3/11 Backers 325 410 467 501 531 551 578 Amount Pledged 57,861 72,776 87,382 100,572 112,938 119,414 127,717 Amount That Day 57,861 14,915 14,606 13,190 12,366 6,476 8,303 Goals Met 2 0 1 1 1 0 1 $ to Next Goal 17,139 2,224 12,618 9,428 12,062 5,586 12,283 Avg Pledge 178.03 177.50 187.11 200.74 212.69 216.72 220.96
The first day goals met includes the original goal and first stretch goal.
If the pledge rate holds at the level of the past two days, the project is about two more days away from the $140,000 stretch goal.
Just messaged and pledged for an extra ruler. Don't you jokers DARE mess this up for me now... *stares*
$12,300 to go. (12278 to be exact, I prefer to round to nearest hundred.) $70 left to pledge before I'm tapped out and have to start adjusting rewards and addons...
Well, there is a kind of a difference between the $260 you pay for Captain and about $384 that I would have to pay to get the same package. This difference keeps a lot of EU players from pledging for Captain, if not from pledging at all.
Well people are still pledging, currently above the $130K mark.
I just want the game now.I fear that when the game finally lands on these shores I'll end up disappointed with it. At the moment the anticipation is very high, I hope that I don't suffer a let down.
After 5 days of availability, Earlybird Commodores are getting scarce. Only 3 left.
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't think that there are KS Commodore level medals at the Anchorage.
Maybe you don't get a medal. Maybe you get a nice sash.:)
I suspect that with the amount of time left, Ares could run into a bit of a marketing crisis concerning energy. Even though we know when items will ship, the fact that the KS is still ongoing has a psychological effect. I think it behooves Ares to consider additional ships, even if their delivery date is later. This isn't so much as to garner more funds as much as to garner excitement. Otherwise, they should end the KS early, if they can.
and the Earlybird Commodores are now all gone
Just for the hell of it, I built a spreadsheet and did some math...
Data as of 10PM PDT 13 Mar 2013, at $140,106 pledged. Will require revision for subsequent stretch goals. Need shipping data to estimate Euro e-tail for comparison... Assumption is that the KS-exclusive, Anchorage Accessories and BGG/KS-exclusive deck don't get the standard 40%-off e-tail discount. Red entries are where KS costs more than e-tail or retail, green are where the KS option costs less.
Pledge MSRP Gunner value Marine value EB Mate value Mate value EB Lt value Lt value EB
Captvalue Capt value EB Comm value Comm value Amount $35 $65 $70 $80 $130 $140 $240 $260 $480 $520 Excl Ships $20 2 $40 4 $80 0 0 0 0 4 $80 4 $80 4 $80 4 $80 8 $160 8 $160 Starter $90 0 0 0 0 1 $90 1 $90 1 $90 1 $90 1 $90 1 $90 2 $180 2 $180 Singles $20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 $160 8 $160 16 $320 16 $320 Stretch 3:
Mat$35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 $35 1 $35 2 $70 2 $70 Stretch 4:
Att Ind$5 0 0 0 0 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 2 $10 2 $10 Stretch 5:
Ruler$5 0 0 0 0 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 1 $5 2 $10 2 $10 Stretch 6:
Terrain$10 1 $10 1 $10 1 $10 1 $10 2 $20 2 $20 Stretch 7:
Capt/Crew
@$160K??? Stretch 8
(reserved)Stetch 9
(reserved)Stretch 10
(reserved)Stretch 11
(reserved)Stretch 12
(reserved)Stretch 13
(reserved)Stretch 14
(reserved)Stretch 15
(reserved)Subtotal
@MSRP$40 $80 $100 $100 $180 $180 $385 $385 $770 $770 US MSRP
savings$5 13% $15 19% $30 30% $20 20% $50 28% $40 22% $145 38% $125 32% $290 38% $250 32% WA, USA street
w/10% sales tax$44 $88 $110 $110 $198 $198 $424 $424 $847 $847 Euro Street w/20% VAT $48 $96 $120 $120 $216 $216 $462 $462 $924 $925 Euro Shipping $15 $25 $50 $50 $60 $60 $60 $60 $60 $60 Euro KS VAT (MSRP+ship) $11 $21 $30 $30 $48 $48 $89 $89 $166 $166 Euro KS Total $61 $111 $150 $160 $238 $248 $389 $409 $706 $746 Euro Save/Loss over Street Price -$13 -27% -$15 -16% -$30 -25% -$40 -33% -$22 -10% -$32 -15% $73 16% $53 11% $218 24% $178 19% US E-tail $40 KS-$0 $80 KS-$0 $64 KS-$6 $64 KS-$16 $144 KS+$14 $144 KS+$4 $267 KS+$27 $267 KS+$7 $534 KS+$54 $534 KS+$14
So, IF my math is right, as is my understanding of VAT being charged at "market rate or actual paid, whichever is greater" while you MAY not get as deep a discount as we do and you DO eat a huge hit--anywhere from 15-47%--at Leutenant level or below, at Captain and Commodore you'll STILL save money over what you WOULD pay in your on-the-street prices. Basically, you're comparing your Kickstarter cost to ours, which is apples-to-oranges, when what you need to compare it to is the on-the-street price including VAT or the European e-tailer price (assume 40% off MSRP if there were a Euro equivalent of 12-7, Miniature Market or Keith), and while this posts a loss in competition to e-tail it also has things you can't get anywhere else, and comparing this LGS's at the Captain and Commodore do post anywhere from $30 to $175 worth of savings. And with my rough math, that's like getting anywhere from one (at non-Early Captain) to seven (at Early Commodore) ships FREE.
Last edited by Diamondback; 03-16-2013 at 23:39. Reason: update; adding KS vs US E-tail
DB, Ares has assigned a $5 value for both the Attitude Indicator and the Combat Ruler.
Thanks--chart updated, and I would bet that while stretch freebies will increase the VAT, they will ALSO increase the savings over street-price; just adding the data for the rulers and attitude indicators already saw the negatives move closer to "wash" and the positives (now highlighted in green text) get even better.
Were I a European customer, if I had significant liquidity I would go either Captain for myself or if I had a buddy to go halves with Commodore, and if not I would just do Marine to snag the four exclusives--while it hasn't gotten any freebies thrown on and thus isn't improving, I'd consider the $15 an equity investment in building the brand and bringing it to market, or between I'd go enough pledge for the Lieutenant package (which HAS improved with Stretch freebies) and snipe off the eight singles later as cashflow allowed writing off the $22-32 despite it being the value of another ship.
Keith, can we do something with that chart as an "official" "Which Package Is Right For Me?" resource? Should I move it to a new thread of its own?
Last edited by Diamondback; 03-13-2013 at 18:24.
Hey Diamondback, it might be worth exploring this based on prices folks could get at online retailers such as 12-7 or coolstuffinc, etc. If the KS still proves to have positive gain in terms of cost, your argument would be greatly strengthened, at least in cost concerns alone.
I think many of us weren't necessarily looking for the greatest deal, but also were concerned with supporting the game.
Nice work.
I think that Aerodrome Accessories is an online retailer as well, is it not?
Against E-tail, Kickstarter loses every time; the only way to win that matchup is to hope we think the exclusives are worth a little premium, or see enough stretch goals piled on to do the job.
I need to figure out how to tweak my Excel spreadsheet to not take the E-tail standard 40% off on KS exclusives or the KS/BoardGameGeek-exclusive deck; if anyone wants a copy of the spreadsheet to check my math and see all the data in it, PM me your email address. :)
No offense intended.
KS might lose, but given that many will not pay MSRP, I think a different comparison would probably meet with less resistance when trying to point out that the KS is not as bad a deal as is being made out. Again, I agree that there are other good reasons to participate in the KS, such as support for the game.
I have a US E-tail line on the spreadsheet, which assumes the user will place an order above the "Free Shipping" threshold, but will need a way of accounting for EU shipping costs... which is a critical sticking point, since IIRC VAT is assessed on shipping costs as well. Anyone from there care to help me out?
And we're OVER THE TOP by ONE BUCK! Too close for comfort...
VAT is charged on the total package which includes the costs of shipping. The bunch of Pirates ! :mad:
Way-heey. $140K cracked. Terrain pack now available. Bring on the next stretch goal - Captain & crew ability cards.:)
So, Chris, what's your take: should I just use Ares' shipping estimates (doubling on Commodore) as a baseline, or can you suggest something better for adding a Kickstarter-vs-Etail line to the chart?
Current total $140,259--$335 of that is me.
-$260 Captain Package
-$20 HMS Victory
-$20 USS Constitution
-$20 Extra Map
-$5 Extra Attitude Indicator
-$5 Extra Combat Ruler
-$5 Extra Terrain Pack #1
Last edited by Diamondback; 03-14-2013 at 03:38.
I think you have to go with Ares shipping estimates. After all, until the launch of the product we don't actually know what the cost of purchase will be, especially from an online retailer. And anyone buying the set from a retailer in the states and shipping it to Europe will be facing the same issues that we have with the KS. The weight of the item. So the shipping costs are still going to be horrendous. For European e-retailers, they will have to add the usual costs incurred to their price before they make the reduction. I don't know enough about how these margins etc. really work but I suspect the cost of the game to be significant, even from an online store.
What is the average % discount given by an online store for a new game?
Then it gets a bit more complicated when you consider that the Victory and Constitution won't ship with the game set. That means that the cost of those should not be included in any calculation for shipping/VAT/customs duty of the boxed set. hen they ship, they'll be assesed for the customs on the value of goods being shipped (incl the shipping costs).
As far as VAT goes, different european countries can have different levels of VAT, and have the VAT on different items. For example here it's 21%, in the UK it's 20% (I think). If you take VAT/Customs as roughly 220% then you shouldn't be far off the mark.
IF Ares mark on the invoice/shipping manifest that the items being shipped with the specific pledge level that are free, are indeed free and not give the retail value of those items, then of course the amount of VAT/Customs is reduced. Not by much probably, but hey, with $60 shipping plus the VAT/Customs every little bit helps.:)
And as Eric pointed out, by supporting the KS you are ensuring that the game will be supported and more ships etc. will become available in the near future. Hopefully.
A link to Kicktraq to help keep track of the progress of the campaign: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/140...t/#chart-daily
Most online stores I have looked at in the past (for wargames and wargame supplies) have prices between 20-35% below MSRP. For a comparison chart, especially given the ease with which Excel does things, I suggest three columns (15%, 25%, 33%) - somewhat like worst-best case scenarios.
I am surprised that there have not been any comments about the potential inclusion of the Donald MacLeod artwork as stretch goal offerings yet.
The last KS update (#12) mentioned not only the possibility of prints but original artwork.
Does anyone know an approximate price range of his original works?
It isn't of interest to me, as I have nowhere to hang a print -- all my wallspace is devoted to Bookshelves. :)
Update on the crew cards: each deck will have four copies each of ten cards, so that means four decks will be enough to fully "crew" a Captain package.
Man, the stretch goal after that's gonna be a pain in the wallet, though... it'll be the first level I can't up-pledge for.
I have never heard of Kickstarter but when I saw it for Sails I came in at the Lt. level. Looking forward to getting the ships in Aug. Seems like a sort of preorder for the game. The sea mats have such great possiabilities.
Here's the St. Ives Gallery: http://www.stivesgallery.co.uk/
Click the Price List and Ordering at top of page.
Thanks,
I had found that, but the KS update mentioned the possibility of a few original works being created not just prints such as those shown at the gallery.
I was wondering of anyone knew the price range of his original works.
Based on my (admittedly limited) experieence with a few friends who are maritime artists, look at the cost of a print and add couple of zeroes
Just a note on stretch goals... yes, your "assessed value" will go up for VAT, but you're also getting things for free that the latecomers will pay full MSRP or e-tail AND VAT for. (AND, by the way, getting some things they NEVER will.) If I'm stuck choosing between 20% and 120% of MSRP, I'll choose the 20% every time! Wouldn't you?
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