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Thread: Expanding the base game

  1. #1
    Ordinary Seaman
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    Default Expanding the base game

    Hi everyone,

    Very new to the game but I"m already thinking of expanding my fleets. Not sure what way to go. I want to pick up HMS Victory for sure because... well its HMS Victory. Any advice?

  2. #2
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    Hi Scott I would suggest that you keep an eye out on EBay or Amazon and buy them as you can afford them. I have collected just about one of everything over the years that way. You are probably paying for the box with Victory though and the USS Constitution as they are special edition collectors items. If you are good with the paintbrush (unlike me) then buying 3D printed models is another option.
    Last edited by Baxter; 10-17-2021 at 20:41.

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    The hard part on 3d's isn't the paint, it's those damnable masts and rigging. :) If you can make good DEX rolls and you have a source for aftermarket bases like Cap'n Duff's specials, some of the aftermarkets actually come out better than their direct Ares peers--I eventually plan to replace the three Intrepids of the Ares 64's with Henry Turner models, and when I find another Victory both models are getting swapped along with several SGN108's. (The SGN108 miniature is Victory after the 1803 rebuild and her near-sisters Boyne and Union; while SGN201 is based on 1765 as-built. 201 should have a lateen mizzen and a color scheme more like overall varnished wood with blue upperworks, but the existing model is Trafalgar colors.)
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  4. #4
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    Find below a little summary of some possibilities to hopefully buy at a reasonable price.

    As the prizes are often high, you can also check https://ks.aresgames.eu/ but you need to do buy for more than $ 200 USD to have free shipping.
    Use this side as reference if you want to buy, especially at ebay or amazon with their mostly fantasy prices.
    For ebay I can give you some recommendations in a PN, one in UK, one in US witch is shipping over Jersey

    miniaturemarket has fair prices, but high postage and i didn't find anything about VAT to UK.

    philibertnet.com has special conditions for UK, check their shipping section, prices are a little higher but ok.
    same for uplay.it (shipping blue tab).

    sometimes this UK-shop has also some ships at good prices 365games.co.uk

  5. #5
    Admiral of the Fleet.
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    Thanks for that information Lankin. I am sure it will be useful.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  6. #6
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    Thanks everyone. Amazon and Zatu games seem to have decent stock of the Ares models. I'm more in a decision paralysis on what to buy first etc 1st rates, 3rd rates etc Thinking a single 1st rate for UK and French (to keep balance) and then some less powerful and more agile ships. Is there much difference between ships of the same class in terms of stats?

  7. #7
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    Hi Scott,

    there are some more people, that have deeper insights in the interaction of the ships, then me,
    but from ares there is a pointing system, that can give you a first direction:
    Sails of Glory – Point Values (English) Updated
    https://www.aresgames.eu/11269

    Also there is a more complete summary at BGG, with deeper info per ship:
    https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/1...lory-info-list


    My recommendation would be to start with 3rd rates rather than 1st rates,
    because the 1st rates are very strong but not as easy to sail.
    Last edited by lankin; 10-18-2021 at 05:47.

  8. #8
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    There are differences between the ships even in the same size. They still play reasonably well but it’s not completely fair.

    I would recommend a second starter to get more ships, shipmats and chits.

    Then it’s up to personal preference. I like the 40 gun Hebe ships. (SGN-105) I find them to be a sweet spot for SoG.

  9. #9
    Admiral of the Fleet.
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    I am with you there Jonas. i think my Amelia has seen more service than any of the other Frigates.
    Also that second starter is a great idea as it provides the extra bonus of more chits and mats for all the games, plus extra rulers wind indicators etc.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  10. #10
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    A first rate, two third rates, two sixth rates and a fifth rate or two are a good size for each navy. Add a sloop and you can play most of our solo games.

    They even have a sale of the starter on Miniature Market.

  11. #11
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    All good advice given, in the end it really depends on what type of game you want to play.
    Do you prefer the fast cut and thrust of frigate actions or prefer the stately blowing seven shades out of the enemy with SOL ?

    If frigates there are a couple of frigates for all the major powers, RN , French and Spanish, you could get a couple of each, bear in mind the RN Amazon class are the early type of 32 guns and not the 36/38gun version.

    If SOL, get three or four 74s for all three, here though the Spanish 74s are on the small side, model wise. Then expand to a First rate per fleet, you can also get a couple of 64s to act as squadron command for the frigates or early wars SOL.

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    There were a few 64s in most big battles, so they're quite useful although one is usually enough for tens of 74s if you're setting up the big battles all by yourself.

    For my fleet of 3D-printed Spanish of almost 30 ships of the line, two will be 64s. To be able to play St Vincent I need at least 7 first rates. England needs 3 for Trafalgar. I don't think any other nation needs more than one for historical battles.

  13. #13
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    Nelson cried out for lack of Frigates. I cried out for lack of Second rates for Trafalgar.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  14. #14
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    The 2nd starter set is an interesting idea, the only problem being no excitement in opening it :o) Thanks for the replies it's helped me think on it a little. I will mostly play with a friend who will be using my kit so just need a few options for two fleets. Are there sloops and brigs in the ares range then? ...... (just seen the swan class sloops)

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    I'm a frigate intensive guy. I have more Amazons and Concordes than any other ships other that sloops, many of which I've converted to brigs and schooners and more. I like the maneuverability.

  16. #16
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    I tend to agree Dobbs.
    For a game at Conventions there is nothing like the sight of a ponderous battle line engaging, but for a real fun game I much prefer my American and Swedish Frigates and smaller supports in the Med and my HEIC ships in the Indian Ocean scenarios.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  17. #17
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    Planning the purchases is great fun, my original outline was 1x1st rate, 2 x 74's, 1 x 64, 3 x frigates, one of which would be a Heavy frigate. I went for French and British because I thought the Spanish ships seemed a tad small in comparison.
    Prices generally are more realistic than with some of the WoG planes but availability can be an issue if you're looking for a specific ship rather than just a ship from a class.
    I prioritised ships I prefered the paint job for but ended up making compromises due to avaiability and price. Of course changing the painted colours is quite possible although I've not found much information on colours on the internet but I'm probably looking in the wrong place.
    A 2nd starter set is a good idea because the extra counter sheets can be relatively expensive but I didn't want to duplicate my ships at such an early stage when there's so many other exciting possibilities to buy.
    I'm sure you'll enjoy the process of putting a fleet together I know I did.
    Good luck with the process.

  18. #18
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    Back in War at Sea days, to combat cheesebuilds some of our House Rules guys had an "Orders of Battle" option that required each large warship to have at least two smaller ship for escort (read, "no Yamato+Musashi+kamikaze swarm").

    For example:
    *Each battleship or carrier must be escorted by at least two cruisers or destroyers.
    *Each cruiser must be escorted by at least two destroyers.

    Applying this, I would propose a rule of thumb of 3-4 Third Rates per three-decker, accompanied by at least 2-3 frigates and a sloop. Nelson's Weather Column at Trafalgar had four threedeckers in its nine ships mostly clustered in the lead, while Collingwood only had three, one each either end and near the middle, in the Lee Column of fifteen. So that's an average of seven triples in 24 SOL's, which suggests a ratio of around 1/3 to 1/4 your total SOL strength should be the big boys. Two-deckers like Portland aren't exactly useful in SOL engagements, but they make good convoy escorts and flagships for frigate squadrons.
    --Diamondback
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  19. #19
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    I think you’re off on frigates DB.

    At Cape St Vincent the Spanish fleet had seven first rates sixteen 74 and a 64 and seven frigates. There were some other vessels too like an 18 gun brig and some armed merchants but I don’t think they count in such a battle.

    That gives almost a three decker per two third rates and a frigate per two third rates. Nelson would have loved to have even that many frigates at the Nile.

    Basically I would say that 1/3 of first and second rates to third rates is good. Usually one of the third rates as a 64 is good enough. Two if you have a big fleet. 80 gun third rates is a bit more common than the 64s in the fleets that have them and the British had a few they’d captured.

    Frigates is a completely different matter as frigate battles were never very large. If you have a navy of more than thirty ships, you don’t need more than about six of those to fight any historical battle. (Or seven in the case of the Spanish above)

    When I decided on ships I looked at Order of Battle for a lot of battles I wanted to be able to play and decided on ships from that.

  20. #20
    Admiral of the Fleet.
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    I must say that I enjoyed playing my Tripoli game with four Frigates.
    I think that could be the most I have used in battle = to my latest game.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Back in War at Sea days, to combat cheesebuilds some of our House Rules guys had an "Orders of Battle" option that required each large warship to have at least two smaller ship for escort (read, "no Yamato+Musashi+kamikaze swarm").

    For example:
    *Each battleship or carrier must be escorted by at least two cruisers or destroyers.
    *Each cruiser must be escorted by at least two destroyers.

    Applying this, I would propose a rule of thumb of 3-4 Third Rates per three-decker, accompanied by at least 2-3 frigates and a sloop. Nelson's Weather Column at Trafalgar had four threedeckers in its nine ships mostly clustered in the lead, while Collingwood only had three, one each either end and near the middle, in the Lee Column of fifteen. So that's an average of seven triples in 24 SOL's, which suggests a ratio of around 1/3 to 1/4 your total SOL strength should be the big boys. Two-deckers like Portland aren't exactly useful in SOL engagements, but they make good convoy escorts and flagships for frigate squadrons.
    While it is true that many of the ships were 2 deck, it is also the case than a proportion had more heavier and more effective guns than even the first and second rates. The larger number of 9 or 12pdr guns add relatively little to their effectiveness. Having a few more guns in each gun deck, and those guns being of a heavier calibre and supplemented by more and heavier (on average) carronades made the large 74s and 84s more effective than their "rating" as third rates suggests. British Common 74s were smaller on average than the Allied fleet however.

  22. #22
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    Yes David, there was a lot of variation and changes made as the years went by. We can only approximate unless we have specific knowledge about a certain ship, and as we all know even the experts can be very elusive about the exact combination of weaponry on many of the vessels for all the periods of their lives.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    I prioritised ships I prefered the paint job for but ended up making compromises due to avaiability and price. Of course changing the painted colours is quite possible although I've not found much information on colours on the internet but I'm probably looking in the wrong place.
    You are quite correct John. Knowledge is sparse and a lot of the paint schemes are based on conjecture. A few descriptions are still extant taken from documents or letters of the time, and paintings often produced years after the event and faded with exposure to the elements. Even when we have physical evidence such as the research done on HMS Victory, the experts quibble about the technicalities, so in reality nobody can gainsay whatever colour scheme you choose, as long as it is not too outrageous.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  24. #24
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    Typically a French Temeraire outpunched a British threedecker on raw throw weight, but the taller ship had the advantage of an easier time turning the weather decks into a slaughterhouse.

    So basically unless you're a completist or building for specific Orders of Battle, a good general guideline is a 1:2:1 ratio of First/Second Rates, 74's, Frigates plus 1-2 each 64's and sloops and maybe 3-4 cruisers like Portland.
    --Diamondback
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