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    Default Question for the Rules Overlords

    It's been a very long time since I pulled out the Sails of Glory box although with some recent 1/700 miniature builds I've been thinking about the game in terms of ease of jumping in, etc. Using ships from the Black Seas, but the basic rules for Sails of Glory how much would rules, ranges, etc., need to be altered for reasonable play? Here's what I did this afternoon before I ran out of time. Ship cards were scaled up for 1/700, but I decided to use the regular movement cards just to see how it all might work on a 3 foot by 4 1/2 foot table. Ships closed very quickly using the only solo rules I had on hand. Only one turn of actual combat but that might be fine for quick play throughs? I ran out of time before having to clear off the table, but thoughts, etc. are welcome. Oh, and it was quite fun shooting again, but I'm incredibly rusty when it comes to the rules, even basic rules.
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    If you are intending to bother with the details of play and the scale of ship worries you, the range rule will need extending by about a third. As for the movement cards, your ship card length has accounted for some of the scale increase already, so if you are not too fussy about the passing speed or turning radius you could stay with the current card and put it down to a slight variation in wind speed Jim.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    If you are intending to bother with the details of play and the scale of ship worries you, the range rule will need extending by about a third. As for the movement cards, your ship card length has accounted for some of the scale increase already, so if you are not too fussy about the passing speed or turning radius you could stay with the current card and put it down to a slight variation in wind speed Jim.

    Rob.
    Thanks for the reply, Rob. Range, movement and reloading times were the items I wondered about the most. Even at battle sails the two ships closed very quickly and actually collided. At this scale the ships look very nice on the table, but I'm also concerned about how quickly they might tread too closely to the edge.

    Stating the obvious, even though it's been years since playing SoG, you don't need ship models if you have the ship cards, maneuver decks and damage tracks for the various vessels. Very much like Wings of War was at one point in time. Which reminds me did the Stats Committee ever come up with cards, deck and damage track for the Santisima Trinidad?
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    There was some discussion as to just how bad Santisima's handling was Jim.
    DB can probably tell you if we got a consensus, but here are a few suggestions.
    I went for the middle option as can be seen from the ship card. Other ideas are shown on the Ship log and the two ship base cards.

    Rob.
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    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    To my recollection we were mostly dismayed at that most number of guns is not as important as the weight of the broadside and it would not give her as impressive stats as many players might hope for. Aaaand there was the question of compared to other Spanish ships or compared to French and British ships... The Spanish already got an unmotivated multiplier to their stats. Should that be applied to Santissima too?

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    Rob, thanks very much for the cards and ship damage track. I'll see if I can get this out on the table in 1/700. Jonas the issues with the Spanish also extended to the stats for Santa Ana if I remember correctly? It would seem those numbers might need adjusting (setting aside any discussion of scale issues).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Rob, thanks very much for the cards and ship damage track.
    Just pleased to be of help Jim. Only sorry that I could not be more specefic on the stats.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Just pleased to be of help Jim. Only sorry that I could not be more specefic on the stats.

    Rob.
    Adjusting the range ruler by a third is great for starters. Thanks!
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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    If you let me know what you would like as the two options Jim, I will be happy to knock out the cards for you.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    On the Deck, I have an idea that we could use a F Deck but you can only use the tightest turns once in a row like the L Deck. F-...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    If you let me know what you would like as the two options Jim, I will be happy to knock out the cards for you.

    Rob.
    I like Jonas's suggestion of having a veer 2 and a veer 3 for the ST, but I'll leave it to you on the stats committee to decide on the rest. Thanks, again!
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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    I think we had several Playtest Candidates but no firm "consensus answer." I dunno where that Veer 4 came from, IIRC three-deckers are usually Veer 3 and ST had a maneuverability problem of legendary proportions that meant everyone in the Armada called her "El Ponderoso."

    I'd have to go back to the Committee archives... Jim, weren't you on it too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I think we had several Playtest Candidates but no firm "consensus answer." I dunno where that Veer 4 came from, IIRC three-deckers are usually Veer 3 and ST had a maneuverability problem of legendary proportions that meant everyone in the Armada called her "El Ponderoso."

    I'd have to go back to the Committee archives... Jim, weren't you on it too?
    No DB I didn't volunteer for the Committee as I'm more of a modeler than a stats/data person. If/when you get a consensus answer I'll definitely put it down for both my Clipper 1/1000 ST and my 1/700 Warlords version. Thanks!

    P.S. I did have another question for you and others concerning a possible update to ships used for a Constitution vs. Guerriere? We used HMS Sybille in the past, but would there be a better substitute (3D printed or otherwise) at this point.
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    Would you say then that the veer 2 was a better match for the Santisima DB?
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Would you say then that the veer 2 was a better match for the Santisima DB?
    Rob.
    I personally think so, but IIRC there were concerns about being too harsh. My gut impression is that ST was more for propaganda effect than practical, much like the Kalinin K-7 of the 1930s.

    Spain: "We have the most heavily armed warship in the world! Look upon it, and tremble in despair!"
    Also Spain: *outfits said ship with an entire deck of weaponry so useless that having the crew drop trou and fling their own POOP out the gunports would have more terminal effect*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Would you say then that the veer 2 was a better match for the Santisima DB?
    Rob.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I personally think so, but IIRC there were concerns about being too harsh. My gut impression is that ST was more for propaganda effect than practical, much like the Kalinin K-7 of the 1930s.

    Spain: "We have the most heavily armed warship in the world! Look upon it, and tremble in despair!"
    Also Spain: *outfits said ship with an entire deck of weaponry so useless that having the crew drop trou and fling their own POOP out the gunports would have more terminal effect*
    Couldn't we just make up two sides of a ship card to show possible variations on the ST (like Constitution and Bonhomme Richard)? I've often wondered what the British would have done with the ST if she hadn't sunk in the storm? (prison ship, broken up or ?)

    As mentioned above I'd also like to see some clarification for Santa Ana? While I never anticipate fighting Trafalgar a snippet of the engagement would be interesting. (Santa Ana vs. HMS Royal Sovereign & HMS Belleisle).
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    So far the Hebes are still the best fit in math and model. I'd take the best stat-line of them to make it a fairer game.
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    I think an older version of Santissima might have veer 3 but when she was upgunned to 140 guns she might actually have veer 2 as she was widely known to be one of the worst sailing ship of the era.

    I don't think anyone have so far have any definitive idea of how to handle the Spanish ships. I actually think we should rather raise the British and French first rates and not lower the Spanish overpowered first rates. The Spanish third rates were overpowered too to my memory and might be brought more to the level of the British and French to leave better room for the second rates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I think an older version of Santissima might have veer 3 but when she was upgunned to 140 guns she might actually have veer 2 as she was widely known to be one of the worst sailing ship of the era.

    I don't think anyone have so far have any definitive idea of how to handle the Spanish ships. I actually think we should rather raise the British and French first rates and not lower the Spanish overpowered first rates. The Spanish third rates were overpowered too to my memory and might be brought more to the level of the British and French to leave better room for the second rates.
    Raising British and French is fine with me, but as stated elsewhere I'll let you folks decide what works best statistically. At some point I'd like to see Russian ships too. I know Simon has 3D offerings. I'm sure I purchased the St. Pavel, but haven't found anyone to print it up so far.
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    That certainly points towards the double sided card suggested by Jim then Jonas. As you suggested, one of three for her before upgunning and the veer of two afterwards.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I think an older version of Santissima might have veer 3 but when she was upgunned to 140 guns she might actually have veer 2 as she was widely known to be one of the worst sailing ship of the era.

    I don't think anyone have so far have any definitive idea of how to handle the Spanish ships. I actually think we should rather raise the British and French first rates and not lower the Spanish overpowered first rates. The Spanish third rates were overpowered too to my memory and might be brought more to the level of the British and French to leave better room for the second rates.
    Good point, we really need to treat 3-decker and 4-decker as two separate ships, just like a razee before vs after. F-Minus might be good for maneuvering.

    My first thought is buff the British and French threedeckers, nerf the Spanish 74s. Even before they came in there wasn't exactly a lotta room to thread the needle on Second Rates... and they only exacerbated it.
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    I think that your first inclination is correct Db. I have often considered shoving everything up one to make room for smaller ships at the bottom, and then stretching the middle to top section so as to be able to squeeze the second rates in. Extending at the top with a new X deck for Santissima would give us a good spread, rather like the heavy bombers in Wings.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    As a general rule, I'd say with their 24# main battery Spanish 74's should be treated more as "really tough 64's." (As an aside, there were a very few 32# 64's, which I suggest the reverse, treating as really weak 74's.)
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  26. #26

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    Rob, the ship card came through fine. Thanks. If/when you do the 'flip' side I'll do that as well. I had to deal with the 'ongoing' issue of Microsoft not converting absolute measurements in their software into actual printed images that reflect what they say in the program. But it's acceptable now.
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    I will get onto that if you drop me a reminder after we get back from Doncaster if I can't get it done tomorrow. Even when I set up my Microsoft sizes exactly they print a small percentage oversize. I have now established a list of sizes by trial and error printing in B&W until I got them right, and then wrote down what I actually need to set them to in Microsoft to get them correct every time when they print.
    WYSIWYG don't seem to work in this case.

    Rob.
    Last edited by Bligh; 09-15-2021 at 03:05.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I will get onto that if you drop me a reminder after we get back from Doncaster if I can't get it done tomorrow. Even when I set up my Microsoft sizes exactly they print a small percentage oversize. I have now established a list of sizes by trial and error printin B&W until I got them right, and then wrote down what I actually need to set them to in Microsoft to get them correct every time when they print.
    WYSIWYG don't seem to work in this case.

    Rob.
    Absolutely no rush on this at all. Have a great time at Doncaster!
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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    I have come up with two main options here gents. the before her reconstruction and afterwards.
    What do you think, bearing in mind that all they put on her upper deck were 9 pounders.
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    Last edited by Bligh; 09-15-2021 at 12:45.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Last edited by Bligh; 09-15-2021 at 12:44.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I think that if we give her the Veer:2 and F-minus deck we should let her have a little extra firepower vs historically as a compensation for hardly being more maneauvrable than a fort. I also think players would be a little disappointed that most cannons isn't the same as the most powerful broadside.

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    I'd like to see some playtest results with these two candidates, which I'm in no position to perform myself ATM. :(
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    I will try and get a game in with them to see how they perform with Santisima against Victory, barco a barco, when I get back from Doncaster DB.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I can't really tell what I think of firepower numbers as I don't know what I should compare them to. Santa Ana? Orient? Hibernia?

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    Threedecker ST should be a peer to Santa Ana (same gundeck layout and similar size, just a little older) and at most a little less than Orient, while Orient and Hibernia should be near-peer. Four-decker depends on whether you go pure historical (which should be negligibly better than threedecker, maybe a special effect for a better chance of mast/sail special damage) or Speculative like Backside BHR, which would be even MORE elephantine and potentially a gamebreaker punch unless countered by impaired mobility or with a fast decay-rate.

    Generally, I'd say the Spanish threedeckers should be on par to 110-gun Ville de Paris (as should the unreleased Commerce de Paris 110's which are basically cut-down-by-one-portlength Oceans).
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    Santa Anna it is then for my three decker version, and a tad more for the Four.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Well, that i know, but if you look at the numbers, DB, there are something like 3 firepower difference between the British and Spanish three deckers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    Well, that i know, but if you look at the numbers, DB, there are something like 3 firepower difference between the British and Spanish three deckers...
    True, amigo. The word of the day for Ares Spanish is "Full Metal MUNCHKIN." Personally, here's how I'd stack-and-rack the Three-Pluses:
    *Tier 1: >120 guns 4-d Santissima Trinidad, slightly stronger than Ocean but much slower and less maneuverable
    *Tier 2: ~118-120 guns Oceans, HMS Hibernia, Caledonia/Nelson classes
    *Tier 3: ~110-112 guns HMS Ville de Paris, Commerce de Paris class, most Spanish threedeckers
    *Tier 4: ~100 guns most British First Rates, handful of "midsize" Spanish 3-deckers
    *Tier 5: (existing HMS Britannia as "base stat model") British Second Rates, Spanish 90/94's
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    If my understanding is right, the mobility impairment came about with the overloading on the four-deck mod.
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    That is a very good grading of them. The big problem is to decide where those tiers should be in numbers. I think we could place the absolute top at 9 and then work down. That would probably leave the third rates about where they are. It would probably leave some Spanish first rates at about the published strength or just a little bit lower but raise British and French quite a bit.

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    I'm also debating whether we shouldn't add another tier at the bottom to split the Second Rates, Tier 5 being late British 98's and Tier 6 being the Spanish 94's and pre-upgrade British 90's.
    --Diamondback
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  42. #42
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    I do think they should be divided into two, not with a huge difference but..., and fit right over the Tonnant/Buccantaur...

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    I suspect one of our governing questions should be "was this enough change from baseline that a change-averse Admiralty deemed it worthy of fleetwide adoption?"

    Also, I suspect Tonnant/Bucentaure should have more starting punch than a 90 but the threedecker should be able to keep taking swings appreciably longer. So maybe use a longer but lower-start T/B as a model for "Tier 6"?

    Maybe this isn't the right forum for this, but I thought having this discussion in the open would give the general membership a chance to see Stats Committee processes in action and invite others with relevant knowledge to grab a line and pull--many hands make for light work, after all. :)
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I suspect one of our governing questions should be "was this enough change from baseline that a change-averse Admiralty deemed it worthy of fleetwide adoption?"

    Also, I suspect Tonnant/Bucentaure should have more starting punch than a 90 but the threedecker should be able to keep taking swings appreciably longer. So maybe use a longer but lower-start T/B as a model for "Tier 6"?

    Maybe this isn't the right forum for this, but I thought having this discussion in the open would give the general membership a chance to see Stats Committee processes in action and invite others with relevant knowledge to grab a line and pull--many hands make for light work, after all. :)
    I’m rather enjoying the discussion so I vote for keeping it going as is.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  45. #45
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    I did not move the discussion to the Stats forum for that very reason DB. Sometimes it is good to air your washing in public.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  46. #46
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    Yes, the tiers would not entirely be based on the highest firepower number. There are several things weighing in like burden and number of boxes. Higher burden do give a higher firepower for a longer time while being hit.

    That's one of the problems with burden, it's used for boarding, taking damage, ramming, grounding and so on. This is why I find it strange that 64 gun ships with almost the same number of crew as a 74 has lower burden, which lets them enter the world of frigates.

    I'm therefore very hesitant to give any frigate burden 5 unless specifically that frigate has some historical reason. Ironsides has one. Indefatigable was made from a 64 gun (which I think should have 5) and all actions she saw had numbers like 50 wounded or dead on the enemy, 3 wounded on Indy.

  47. #47
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    I adopted a tier system for Burden in my house rules.

    Burden 1 SoWs
    Burden 2 Post Ships/Corvettes
    Burden 3 32 gun Frigates
    Burden 4 38 gun Heavy Frigates
    Burden 5 3rd Rates (Constitution stayed here)
    Burden 6 1st Rates

    I standardized all classes as I felt that slight changes in broadsides didn't need representation.
    I treat Temeraires as heavy 3rds and Bellonas as Light 3rds, using the same stats for all matching models.

    The 4 vs. 3 broadside in Amazons an Concordes I attribute to the difference in length. The Amazon's shorter length gives a more focused broadside.

  48. #48
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    The Spanish are not really a fleet I have looked into, but I would base my stats on similar classes in other nations, mounting the same broadsides, but influenced by differences in length.

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