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Thread: A Paradox?

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    Default A Paradox?

    Another thread reminded me of a thought I've had before, that many of us (myself included) abhor war but love wargames. Even assuming that just war is a thing (even a necessary evil), we reenact death and destruction we would never want to exist in real life. No judgement or moral statement here, it's just bit of an odd thing if you think about it.

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    As a sailor you should find nothing unusual in a pair o doxies Jason.

    Sailors tales of full of blasting enemy ships to kingdom come and then trying their utmost to rescue and care for an enemy who had just been trying to knock seven bells out of them in return.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Ha! This is exactly why I turned my Wings of Glory planes into an air racing game. I just didn't feel comfortable blasting my friends out of the sky. Somehow blowing them out of the water is different...

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    I must be feeling frivolous tonight Dobbs. I just found it amusing to think of you blowing a sailing ship out of the water. It was that west wind wot done for us Cap'n.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I think of it two ways:

    1. It is a strategy game
    2. It is abstracted enough that we can enjoy it without realizing what it truly represents.

    Wargames provide a unique strategy game that have a sort of grounded realism, i.e. these tactics feel real compared to fantasy type games. The other part is that it's an abstraction of war. If we were playing these games and had to actually witness the horrors that our game actions cause, then I don't think anyone would play them.

    This even applies to the oldest games such as Chess. You are battling your opponent and basically killing their troops as you try to capture or kill the king. But the game is so abstracted, we don't truly think of it that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I must be feeling frivolous tonight Dobbs. I just found it amusing to think of you blowing a sailing ship out of the water. It was that west wind wot done for us Cap'n.
    Rob.
    It takes a really good set of lungs, but at 1/1000 scale, I'm certain that it's do-able!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    It takes a really good set of lungs, but at 1/1000 scale, I'm certain that it's do-able!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    As a sailor you should find nothing unusual in a pair o doxies Jason.
    BAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!

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    It's cross-cultural, but here's the link to my air racing:

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...-Racing-Anyone

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    They are all games of strategy and tactics. Sort of like Chess with better miniatures. They appeal to everybody.

    I got my Preacher hooked on Wings of Glory a few years back and he is now getting into Sails as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    It's cross-cultural, but here's the link to my air racing:

    https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...-Racing-Anyone
    Cool!

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    Quote Originally Posted by usfbrown View Post

    Wargames provide a unique strategy game that have a sort of grounded realism, i.e. these tactics feel real compared to fantasy type games. The other part is that it's an abstraction of war. If we were playing these games and had to actually witness the horrors that our game actions cause, then I don't think anyone would play them.
    Nowhere near the horrors of war, but we actually went through a phase in our wargaming, where if you could make an enemy regiment surrender to you the Standard bearer of that Regiment had to be given to the victor. They held it until said regiment captured another colour. They then got theirs back, and so it went on. The problem became accute when several colours were captured from different protaganists at one show, and some of the loosers only played spasmodic games so had little chance of getting their colour back. The book keeping was also getting out of hand on who had which person's colour. So we stopped it. The real killer was that if you captured a gun battery you got to melt down one of the guns. That stopped people risking guns in silly positions, but resulted in guns being withdrawn at the first sign of an enemy advance. We gave up on that idea too.

    I don't think that the idea of keeping a struck ship would go down too well in our game either.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Nowhere near the horrors of war, but we actually went through a phase in our wargaming, where if you could make an enemy regiment surrender to you the Standard bearer of that Regiment had to be given to the victor. They held it until said regiment captured another colour. They then got theirs back, and so it went on. The problem became accute when several colours were captured from different protaganists at one show, and some of the loosers only played spasmodic games so had little chance of getting their colour back. The book keeping was also getting out of hand on who had which person's colour. So we stopped it. The real killer was that if you captured a gun battery you got to melt down one of the guns. That stopped people risking guns in silly positions, but resulted in guns being withdrawn at the first sign of an enemy advance. We gave up on that idea too.

    I don't think that the idea of keeping a struck ship would go down too well in our game either.
    Rob.
    That's impressive. Those rules definitely add another layer to your tactical decision making and consequences. I can how it would become burdensome in the end but a great idea nonetheless.

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    It was fun for the first couple of months Bryan! Especially when the players had partaken of a beer or three.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Nowhere near the horrors of war, but we actually went through a phase in our wargaming, where if you could make an enemy regiment surrender to you the Standard bearer of that Regiment had to be given to the victor. They held it until said regiment captured another colour. They then got theirs back, and so it went on. The problem became accute when several colours were captured from different protaganists at one show, and some of the loosers only played spasmodic games so had little chance of getting their colour back. The book keeping was also getting out of hand on who had which person's colour. So we stopped it. The real killer was that if you captured a gun battery you got to melt down one of the guns. That stopped people risking guns in silly positions, but resulted in guns being withdrawn at the first sign of an enemy advance. We gave up on that idea too.

    I don't think that the idea of keeping a struck ship would go down too well in our game either.
    Rob.
    Well, there is a less destructive option: have everybody bring a lockbox, and whatever gets captured goes into the box and they can't use it again for the rest of the day. "Keep All You Kill" is why I never really got into tournament gaming...
    --Diamondback
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    Never done a tournament myself DB. When we started the school wargames club many years ago, we decided that one of our club rules would be no Tournament play. There was enough friction between young teenagers at the time without adding fuel to the fire by starting blood fueds over games as well, We had seen what the effect was on so called adults at some of the shows. Seeing someone almost come to blows with a Games Master was enough of a indication of what we wanted to avoid at club level.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonb View Post
    Another thread reminded me of a thought I've had before, that many of us (myself included) abhor war but love wargames. Even assuming that just war is a thing (even a necessary evil), we reenact death and destruction we would never want to exist in real life. No judgement or moral statement here, it's just bit of an odd thing if you think about it.
    "A paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox, aha ha ha ho ho ho, a paradox" (name that tune......)

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    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    DING DING DING -- we have a winner! Here's another fun one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VxwjmTDVyc
    Last edited by Wentworth; 08-13-2020 at 19:43.

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    Certainly a better rendering than the one I posted Bill. More in keeping with the presentations I remember from my youth when the D'Oyly Carte opera company were extant.

    Here is the only G&S I actually acted in. Can you guess which part? Not in this august Company I hasten to add.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRhdtpWmzi4

    Rob.
    Last edited by Bligh; 08-14-2020 at 05:46.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Certainly a better rendering than the one I posted Bill. More in keeping with the presentations I remember from my youth when the D'Oyly Carte opera company were extant.

    Here is the only G&S I actually acted in. Can you guess which part? Not in this august Company I hasten to add.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRhdtpWmzi4

    Rob.
    I am guessing Sir Joseph Porter KCB........yes?

    BTW -- when I was about 7 years old D'Oyly Carte was on tour in New York City and my Mom introduced my to G&S -- "HMS Pinafore" it was. I saw D'Oyly Carte one more time back in 1976 when they played Lincoln Center in New York City (again I saw "HMS Pinafore"). Incidentally, if you liked the Paradox clip I posted, here is a link to a YouTube playlist encompassing almost all of that show -- there are some jump cuts that lose dialog, but most of the show is there. ENJOY !

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...046FFF746792EB

  22. #22
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    Thanks Bill,
    I will have a look. The first G and S we went to see was with the chap who was to become my Best Man although that was far in the future then. What was even more funny was that the folks playing Robin Oakapple and Rose Maybud were destined to become his Father and Mother in Law. Over the years we and another great friend saw all the Operettas excepting Iolanthe. The first time I had a ticket to go, I had a last minute phone call to say my College entrance interview had been brought forward. When I should have been enjoying the Operetta I was at the other end of the country. Role on the years and no chance came up until I was married and Mrs Bligh was expecting our first. In the late afternoon she went into labour. I got to none of the performance. I actually never saw it until about 10 years ago at the G & S Festival at Buxton, almost a lifetime later. Strange to say Ruddigore is still my favourite, with Yeomen a close second, and yes Sir Joseph it was in a school production long before Sails of Glory.
    Funny old world ain't it.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Two things to note:

    1. "It is a good thing that war is terrible, lest we grow fond of it."--Robert E. Lee
    2. We are descended from predators who had to fight mightily just for their very existence against opponents that without technical resources would have hopelessly outclassed us, and those primal instincts are deep inside us all. Better to give them an outlet on the tabletop or in a virtual realm rather than For Real Marbles.

    Okay, three.
    3. For some of us, this is our own little way to remember those who, on whatever side, gave their lives for what they believed in and to better understand the decisions made by the commanders on the scene through "What If X Played Out Differently?" scenarios. What if Halsey hadn't taken the bait at Cape Engano? What if Scott had effectively used his cruisers' radar at Savo Island? What if Werner Voss had known, with apologies to the late Kenny Rogers, "when to hold 'em and known when to fold 'em"? What if John Paul Jones had been able to get all the guns for Bonhomme Richard he wanted? (Answered: BHR still woulda sucked, but woulda sucked quite a bit less. Flamborough Head would have probably played out little different than the one we know from the history books--except that BHR might have taken Serapis down with her and killed everybody rather than leaving just enough ship for both crews to use as a lifeboat.)
    --Diamondback
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  24. #24
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    Certainly food for thought DB, which is preferable to food for fishes at any time.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Thanks Bill,
    I will have a look. The first G and S we went to see was with the chap who was to become my Best Man although that was far in the future then. What was even more funny was that the folks playing Robin Oakapple and Rose Maybud were destined to become his Father and Mother in Law. Over the years we and another great friend saw all the Operettas excepting Iolanthe. The first time I had a ticket to go, I had a last minute phone call to say my College entrance interview had been brought forward. When I should have been enjoying the Operetta I was at the other end of the country. Role on the years and no chance came up until I was married and Mrs Bligh was expecting our first. In the late afternoon she went into labour. I got to none of the performance. I actually never saw it until about 10 years ago at the G & S Festival at Buxton, almost a lifetime later. Strange to say Ruddigore is still my favourite, with Yeomen a close second, and yes Sir Joseph it was in a school production long before Sails of Glory.
    Funny old world ain't it.
    Rob.
    Well Sir Joseph...er Rob.... can you still do a patter song or two ? If we should ever meet, I would look forward to that! BTW -- if nothing else, watch the curtain call from the linked "Pirates of Penzance" production -- it is the best curtain call I think I have ever seen. Many decades ago there was a production company called Light Opera of Manhattan (LooM) that did all the G&S operettas on a three year rotation (on a much smaller scale than D'Oyly Carte) along with the standards like "The Merry Widow," "The Student Prince," "The New Moon," etc. I think I only missed "Princess Ida" (although I had a wonderful recording of a UK production of it). After a number of years LooM had to fold its tent for financial reasons. Regrettably G&S is becoming a lost art form in the U.S. -- and productions of "The Mikado" have all but ceased due to complaints of racism. In the current environment it is almost impossible to explain that "The Mikado" is actually a metaphorical satire of Victorian British class rigidity. Ah well.....

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    Gracious me Bill where will it all end? They will be complaining about persecuting witches before we know where we are!
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Perhaps you could do a modern version of 'The Mikado' with the 'Mikado' replaced by the President and the 'Lord High Executioner' by the director of White House Personnel, who is always 'giving people the chop' by firing them. :)

  28. #28
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    Could be time for our navy to get involved to draw attention to an important part of our history.
    The voyage of HMs Pinafore to stamp out the slave trade!
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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