Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: USS Constitution Versus HMS Guerriere (HMS Sybille)

  1. #1
    Midshipman
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    North Derbyshire
    Log Entries
    494
    Name
    John

    Default USS Constitution Versus HMS Guerriere (HMS Sybille)

    Guerriere V Constitution or David V Goliath

    I’ve just played out the fight between these 2 ships and gave Guerriere the handicap of having me as the Captain versus Constitution using Dobbs A.I. system. It’s the first time I’ve used his system and I had some teething troubles understanding bits of it but eventually I think I got it sorted and from that point on the game went quickly and you will see how well the two Captains did.
    I’m going to go into a dry, detailed, description of the game to show how I used the AI and how the fight went, don’t worry it was only 5 moves long so the AAR is quite short.

    I used the 1812 stats for Constitution so the best from the American point of view.

    TURN 1

    Guerriere is on the right and Constitution on the left, I got confused with the wording in the AI instructions but the move that I thought was suggested seemed reasonable, which was a gentle turn towards the Guerriere. My intention was to out sail Constitution and get upwind of her, ideally crossing her bow and getting a raking shot. I was playing 2 cards for the Guerriere and creating a new one each move for the Constitution.

    The AI instructions are in 4 parts, two that give you the chart to use and two to determine the results on that chart.

    1) Determine what tack is the solo play ship on, which side is the wind coming from, wind coming over the starboard side so a starboard tack.
    2) Determine whether the solo ship is in the red, yellow, or green arc. This is what confused me most because it didn’t say relative to what! Is it the enemy ship relative to the solo ship or the solo ship to the enemy ship. At this point they were both in the yellow arc relative to each other so Yellow.
    This gives the table to use.
    I am now fairly certain that the arc referred to, is the arc that the wind comes from relative to the solo ship. I.E. Yellow – is Astern or Port and Starboard beam forward of amidships. Green is Port and Starboard Quarter and Red over the Bows. Dobbs please could you confirm I got this right in the end.
    3) Using the Bearing Template, determine in which arc the closest player ship is relative to the solo play ship. I didn’t have the Bearing Template – Humm There is a diagram that shows an 8 sided hexagon and from that and the results tables I deduced that Ahead is 45’ to Port and 45’ to Starboard of the bow, ie 315’ through to 45’ Port Beam 45’ through to 135’, astern 135’ through 225’ and Starboard Beam 225’ through 315’. So the Guerriere is on the Starboard Beam. I’ve just this minute found the Bearing Template and I was slightly out in my assumption but very little, the template makes it obvious.
    4) Determine which direction the closest player ship is moving relative to the solo play ship. There is a diagram and this was fairly straight forward to understand. There are 4 choices, Parallel, Port, Starboard, Reciprocal. Guerriere is moving to Port. I used the wind gauge as a compass to determine angles but that’s hardly necessary.

    TURN 2

    This is when I realised I was wrong about the second step because I had one ship in the red arc from the other and nothing made any sense on the tables but as soon as I used the colour denoted by the wind over the ship it all fell into place. I changed the wind gauge for a home made protractor.

    Constitution on the Starboard Tack, wind in the green arc so use Green Table page 1 Guerriere is now Ahead of Constitution and heading to Port. I rolled a 1 minus 4 because they are over long range = -3 Result = card 5-S. After moving they are in range but the AI rule says Constitution will only fire a full broadside as her first salvo, unless fired upon, in which case she will return fire. I am still hoping for a raking shot and so hold my fire.

    TURN 3

    Constitution on the Starboard Tack, wind in the green arc so use Green Chart page 1 Guerriere is still Ahead of Constitution and still heading to Port. I rolled a 6 Result = 5-S. (a 5 or 6 gives this result, 1 to 4 would be a turn to Starboard)


    I fire my broadside but unfortunately don’t get the raking shot I was hoping for, if I’d continued in a straight line on my previous move I would have got it, . Constitution returns fire from her Starboard Bow Battery. We both fired at 4 + 2 for 1st broadside. Guerriere is devastated.

    For some reason at this stage I had expected Constitution to turn to port and the card I had already put down to play next was a hard turn to Port for Guerriere to catch Constitution with my starboard battery and take no return fire. You can see I have a lot to learn.

    GUERRIERE


    CONSTITUTION


    TURN 4

    Note this is after the move, I missed a photo.

    Constitution was still on the Starboard Tack, wind in the green arc so use Green Chart page 1. Guerriere was still Ahead of Constitution and still heading to Port. I rolled a 5 Result = 0 (This was a mistake, I read from the wrong line on the table it should have been a 5-S again not 0 and I should have added +4 for close range which would have given = 9 which would have been a hard turn to starboard.
    As it was my result of 0 is a hard turn to port, Dobbs has a very sensible proviso in the rules that if an AI ships move would result in a collision chose the nearest card that will not result in a collision, in this case it was straight on which meant Constitution could fire her port stern battery, which was at 3 +1 for 1st broadside. I lost out on the musketry as well.

    GUERRIERE

    I’m taking a right beating, and just keeping pace with the inflow of water through the hole in the hull.

    CONSTITUTION

    All I can hope is Constitution burns to the waterline but the crew are fighting the fire.

    TURN 5

    Again the picture is after the move, so you need to imagine where we were prior to this for the move resolution to make sense.

    Constitution was still on the Starboard Tack, wind still in the green arc so use Green Chart page 1. Guerriere was now Astern of Constitution and on a reciprocal course (moving away). I rolled a 5, Result = 10 this was a hard turn to starboard. This allowed the Constitution to fire her recently loaded Starboard Quarter battery, causing more damage but fortunately nothing too serious.
    A roll of 1,2 or 3 would have been hard to port and 4,5,or 6 hard to starboard, either would have been a good move except I don’t understand how Dobbs knew in advance that his port battery had just fired and was reloading but his starboard battery was ready to go. A very cunning move for an AI system.

    GUERRIERE

    I realized this is a fight I’m not going to win and so set all sails and head for the sunset. The hole in my ship is just about to be plugged. I was lucky not to lose a mast as happened in the real fight or I would have been in as much trouble as Captain Dacres was.

    CONSTITUTION

    The fire has been extinguished although it’s done more damage to her than my guns have.

    She has also set all sails and I did consider using Dobbs chase rules to see if Constitution would catch Guerriere but decided I didn’t want to take a further beating.

    It’s difficult to tell after just one use and with my limited experience with these ships but it all seemed pretty good to me and I’ll definitely be using these AI rules again.


    Cheers

  2. #2
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    A very erudite explaination of not only the pitfalls to watch out for but also the way in which Dobb's system works, so thank you for that in addition to the AAR itself which was very enlightening and exactly what I would have expected from the vastly superior powered Constitution. There were two glimmers of hope which went awry. had you managed that raking shot with your first fire and had it been double shotted you may well have foun yourself fighting a more even battle. The second glimmer of hope was the fire but with such little previous damage to Constitution closing the boxes did not reduce the firepower as seriously as would have been the case had it been further down the line of boxes. So that hope soon flickered and died.
    Overall an entertaining game.

    Thanks,
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  3. #3
    Stats Committee
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    1,987
    Blog Entries
    13
    Name
    Dobbs

    Default

    That's great, John! I played it out and got pretty much the same results.

    Name:  20200424_174417.jpg
Views: 305
Size:  203.8 KB

    I had to scare up my old base cards. I've modified mine to reflect more accurate square rigger sailing angles. You can see here, why I refer to the yellow arc instead of the orange arc.

    Name:  20200424_174440.jpg
Views: 159
Size:  90.1 KB

    Name:  20200424_174346.jpg
Views: 166
Size:  128.0 KB

    Name:  20200424_174759.jpg
Views: 163
Size:  115.3 KB

    Name:  20200424_174857.jpg
Views: 154
Size:  182.6 KB

    One question, on Turn 4, you said you rolled a 5 at close range, my table says with a +4 that that should have been a 7 (green arc, enemy ahead at close range and heading to port)?
    Last edited by Dobbs; 04-24-2020 at 16:04.

  4. #4
    Stats Committee
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    1,987
    Blog Entries
    13
    Name
    Dobbs

    Default

    My plan was to make the AI seek the weather gauge when it wasn't in danger of being hit hard and to try for broadside shots based on the most likely place for the opponent to end up.

    Also, I see that I misspoke. The weather gauge pointer, and not the actual weather gauge is to be used for figuring out the player's bearing relative to the AI ship. I liked your interpretation and it did work. I'll fix that!

    I like the homemade protractor. Suzanne and I just use a laser pointer through opposite corners if the AI ship, but I thought I should offer a bearing template. It is stylish and red and green.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 04-24-2020 at 16:16.

  5. #5
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    The bearing protractor is very smart Dobbs, and adds an extra professional look to your whole system, which in itself is already very innovative and portrays that extra bit of realism to the sailing element of the game. I am sure it will be appreciated by all those players who have a modicum of knowledge about sailing.

    Rob.

    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  6. #6
    Midshipman
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    North Derbyshire
    Log Entries
    494
    Name
    John

    Default

    Hi Dobbs I have just checked move 4 and you are quite right, 9 on your chart results in move card 7. I think I just added +4 to my dice rolled of 5 to give me 9 and left it at that without doing the next step of looking it up. Pilot error rather than the navigator.

    Thanks for the rep, it's not an interesting AAR but I wanted to include all the mechanics in the hope that you would check through and I much appreciate you doing that.

    It's always difficult if not impossible to use someone elses house rules because they wrote them for themselves and so its more of an aide memoire. Apart from the 2nd phase yours are very well written and followable.
    Well done with that.
    Cheers

  7. #7
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post


    I had to scare up my old base cards. I've modified mine to reflect more accurate square rigger sailing angles.
    Have you any more of these corrected cards for other ships Dobbs?

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  8. #8
    Midshipman
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    North Derbyshire
    Log Entries
    494
    Name
    John

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    A very erudite explaination of not only the pitfalls to watch out for but also the way in which Dobb's system works, so thank you for that in addition to the AAR itself which was very enlightening and exactly what I would have expected from the vastly superior powered Constitution. There were two glimmers of hope which went awry. had you managed that raking shot with your first fire and had it been double shotted you may well have foun yourself fighting a more even battle. The second glimmer of hope was the fire but with such little previous damage to Constitution closing the boxes did not reduce the firepower as seriously as would have been the case had it been further down the line of boxes. So that hope soon flickered and died.
    Overall an entertaining game.

    Thanks,
    Rob.
    Thanks Rob, I think if I had reversed the chits drawn on that first salvo then I might have had more of a chance, the luck of the draw was against me there. I didn't use double shot in this game because Constitution was precluded from using it. C'est la vie.

  9. #9
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    The restricting of the use of differing shot by the AI ships has been troubling me for some time. Not particularly with Dobb's rules but with all sets of AI I have tried. i would like to work out some sort of formulea for that, sail setting changes, and things like shooting high. It would give the AI more options. I just have not managed to come up with any sensible formula with which to implement it. Maybe that is why no one else has either!

    rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  10. #10
    Stats Committee
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    1,987
    Blog Entries
    13
    Name
    Dobbs

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    The restricting of the use of differing shot by the AI ships has been troubling me for some time. Not particularly with Dobb's rules but with all sets of AI I have tried. i would like to work out some sort of formulea for that, sail setting changes, and things like shooting high. It would give the AI more options. I just have not managed to come up with any sensible formula with which to implement it. Maybe that is why no one else has either!

    rob.
    Honestly, I just borrowed the idea from the other systems. I was focused on improving the sailing, and just needed a way for the guns to fire. I'll give this some thought. It does sound like a tough one though.

  11. #11
    Stats Committee
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    1,987
    Blog Entries
    13
    Name
    Dobbs

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Have you any more of these corrected cards for other ships Dobbs?

    Rob.
    How would you like them? Blank or with names? I can put them up as PDF's or is there a better way?

  12. #12
    Midshipman
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    North Derbyshire
    Log Entries
    494
    Name
    John

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    The restricting of the use of differing shot by the AI ships has been troubling me for some time. Not particularly with Dobb's rules but with all sets of AI I have tried. i would like to work out some sort of formulea for that, sail setting changes, and things like shooting high. It would give the AI more options. I just have not managed to come up with any sensible formula with which to implement it. Maybe that is why no one else has either!

    rob.
    I've still only played a few games so not really worried about it yet.

    What I did for the previous couple of games was to shuffle the 2 ball chits with the 2 double shot chits and place 2 of these on the ship mat without looking at them. I did this for my ship and the AI ship. That way I introduced the random element of having double shot in use by the AI ship. Once the game had started I looked to see what my ship was loaded with and once we got in long range I looked to see what the AI ship was loaded with. After firing I loaded with ball for each ship.
    It introduced a random element into the game and was a bit of fun as well as frustration when I realized I needed to get close before I could fire.

    With regard to chain and grape, do you think that the scenario would help determine if you would use them?

  13. #13
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Thanks for the new system Dobbs, however you evolved it. It gives a good new option for playing the game. Don't worry too much about the firing high and different ammunition, with at least another 7 weeks lockdown for we oldsters and all that thinking time, I'm sure that a solution will present itself eventually.

    Rob.
    Last edited by Bligh; 04-26-2020 at 01:08.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  14. #14
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    How would you like them? Blank or with names? I can put them up as PDF's or is there a better way?
    One for each rate with names would be fine if you have them Dobbs. I can insert any other names as I need them. The stats are easy enough to add. Its the national flags which are the time wasters when altering the cards. If you put them in you photo albums I can pick them up from there.
    Thanks.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  15. #15
    Stats Committee
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    1,987
    Blog Entries
    13
    Name
    Dobbs

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Have you any more of these corrected cards for other ships Dobbs?

    Rob.
    Here's the first installment, Rob. If you want other nationalities or a different format, let me know.

    https://www.sailsofglory.org/showthr...2163#post92163

  16. #16
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Thanks very much Dobbs.
    That's just the ticket.
    I will give those an outing when I play my next solo game.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •