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Thread: A misunderstanding?

  1. #1
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    Default A misunderstanding?

    From books and articles which I have read, I came to the understanding that chain shot or dismantling shot was used to disable a ships rigging before closing so that advantage could be taken of a less maneuverable opponent. this favoured mainly by the French rather than the English who preferred to concentrate fire on the hull. This being so why do the rules exclude Chain from being used in all but extreme close range situations? I can understand this for Grape or Canister but not in the case of Chain.
    Any observations on this would be interesting.How close is close?

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  2. #2
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    I don't know about tactics, but I would think that the wonky physics of flying chain shot would reduce its overall range as well as the range at which it could be effectively aimed.

  3. #3
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    If you read my latest AAR Jason. You will see what brought the matter to a head. In the battle the French Leander is loaded with Chain. Not only does this mean that in closing she missed two good chances of first time shots upon the Nottingham, but when she eventually crossed the Nottingham's stern she did pathetic damage.
    Captain Kiwi drew for her to see what first time double shot would have produced under the same circumstances, and the fight would have finished right there with a French winner.
    I wont be using Chain again even for an AI!

    Rob
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I just read that. I suspect that, in real life, not all the guns would have been loaded with chain shot for just that kind of reason.

  5. #5
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    My reasoning for using Double shot rather than chain is that it can be used a short range rather than extra short as is the case with chain and grape. Grape is very good because just before boarding you want as many of the opposing crew dead as possible, But Double consistently performs better than chain. I did 100 draws of chain and Double to test the theory, and in only one instance did chain do better than double.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  6. #6

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    Interesting thought, Rob.

    Why shouldn’t it possible to shoot chain a half ruler...

  7. #7
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    If the rules more or less reflect the actual ranges of real ammunition, it could be because by chaining two balls together, you 1) add weight and 2) cause them to exert force on one another swinging around in flight, dissipating kinetic energy that would otherwise continue to move the shot forward.

  8. #8
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    I was just wondering how the French actually achieved it then?

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Maybe swooping in, firing, and disengaging to maneuver into a better position against the hobbled opponent? It strikes me as being about priorities and tradeoffs on a first pass: the British go right for the enemy's ability to shoot while the French prefer to attack the enemy's ability to maneuver first. The French might take more damage in the first broadside to the hull and gun crews, but if their gambit is successful, it could pay huge dividends with the ability to take subsequent raking shots.

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    So maybe it wasn't before closing, per se, but before really committing to close quarters?

  11. #11
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    That sounds like a very good hypothesis Jason, and would certainly fit in with my understanding of the accounts given. I will run with that.
    Just looked up a site about different types of shot and it said that Chain was unusual in that it did not lose velocity as quickly as the solid shot because it had a flatter trajectory. That would seem to indicate a shorter range for chain. The spread of canister seems to have been the reason for its optimum range being shorter. I will consult my book on "Firepower" by Duffy when I can find it.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  12. #12
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    Rob, when you made the draw comparison, was it the values that you compared or the special damage?
    My understanding of use of chain shot to destroy rigging and masts would mean you should be getting lots of sail damage and mast damage, which means after 6 sail damage thats a mast gone which cannot be repaired plus other mast damage so if you get a hit in a ship should be disabled pretty quickly as you can only repair a mast once.
    I have not read a ship being disabled at long ranges ( here I mean half ruler in game turns) hence possibly why its at the short range.
    I will have to look through my C damage counters to see how much mast and sail damage they include.

  13. #13
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    One of the variables I did miss, was assessing how often I could use double shot at short range, and how often it would be used more often than finding yourself at extra short range and able to use chain. That may slant the results even more. If you could use it at short range it may well even out for mast and sail damage.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  14. #14
    Captain of the Fleet
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    This sounds like a good idea to test out

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    Admiral of the Blue.
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    This will need to be recorded under proper gaming conditions and logged down over several dozen games to be effective. I will start with my next game and see what happens.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  16. #16

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    Chain shot (aka "dismantling shot"), and the whole "French fire high" thing was considered more of a method for disengaging than making an opponent more vulnerable to attack, particularly in fleet actions. On the short range aspects of chain, there are certainly some very interesting physics effects going on there once the two ends of the "chain" start tumbling and interfering with each other, nit to mention the greater drag over and above that for a standard round shot. It may also be worth mentioning that chain (and bar) was also fired low as it had greater effect on crew and light wooden upperworks, and it was also occasionally used on land

  17. #17
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    Thanks for your insight on this matter Dave. I was almost certain that you would have something constructive to say on the matter. The idea of using it as a method of getting out of a sticky situation had not occurred to me.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  18. #18
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    Here is an article about using Chain Shot in the game Empire: Total War Heaven. The website is http://etw.heavengames.com/articles/...al/chain-shot/

    I am not sure how applicable this would be in Sails of Glory.


    Chain shot 101

    By Smileyman007

    Chain shot can be tricky to use, but can give you a decisive edge if you know exactly how to use it.

    The first rule of chain shot in this game (that I cannot emphasize enough): Do NOT use chain shot against MASTS. Don't think of it as an anti-mast weapon because chain shot is not designed to take out masts. Chain shot is designs to take out SAILS. This means you should only use chain shot IF AND ONLY IF an enemy has their sails unfurled.

    Shooting while their sails are furled is wasted as it takes a very lucky shot to hit a mast and an incredibly lucky shot to cut down a mast. In that case you should use round shot to maximize your average damage per shot (i.e., to waste as few shots as possible).

    Typically if you do enough damage to the sails and associated rigging, the masts will come down on their own. Don't think of it like the movie Master And Commander where the goal is to shoot the mast; instead the goal is to hit the sails and put as many holes in them as possible.

    As mentioned in previous posts, the best way to use chain shot is when you are perpendicular to an enemy warship (and their sails are unfurled) because that presents the largest sail surface-area to your gunners
    Why use chain shot?

    Chain shot will damage sails, which will slow down a ship. More holes = more places for the wind to slip through = lower maximum speed. Even a sloop or a brig can be brought almost to a complete stop by taking out its sails and masts, robbing it of its only advantage.
    When to use chain shot:

    Typically chain shot is not useful in the opening of the battle (unless outnumbered and leeward -- see below). Generally I find it more effective to use round shot to damage enemy hulls and -- perhaps more importantly -- destroy their cannons. Typically I'll use chain shot in the later stages when I'm mopping up. I'll use chain shot against isolated, low morale (or routing) ships to prevent them from escaping. It's always better to capture than to sink an enemy, so it's worth using chain shot to prevent a potential prize from slipping away.

    Another time to use chain shot is when you're outnumbered and leeward.* I've devised a strategy for fighting a superior opponent by using chain shot, although admittedly with mixed results. Since the opposing force will be windward and charging at me, their sails will be out virtually the whole time. My goal is to slowly retreat to the leeward while making 180 degree turns snaking back and forth (this does two things: 1) it allow my gunners on the other side of the ship to fire at the enemy, which can be faster than simply waiting for the first side to reload; and 2) it spreads out the damage I take from the enemy and lets my ship stay afloat longer). As I retreat, I use chain shot on ONE enemy ship; when its sails are significantly damaged, I focus on a new enemy.

    The goal here is to slowly isolate and spread out the enemy fleet. The first ship can't keep up with the rest of its fleet and falls behind. So does the second ship. Then the third. Eventually their fleet will be spread out and I can then engage individual ships rather than their superior fleet. Basically, divide and conquer. It works on paper but it's difficult in practice.

    * "Leeward" essentially means "down wind" -- for example: if the wind is blowing from the north to the south, and there are two ships--one is to the north and the other to the south--then the southern ship is leeward while the northern ship is windward.

  19. #19
    Captain of the Fleet
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    Just been through my C damage bag. There are two sets of damage counters insde and results are :

    C damage

    80 x crew. 33%
    16 x crew and 1 damage. 6.6%
    8x crew and 2 damage 3.3%
    24 x sail and 1 damage. 10%
    8 x sail and 2 damage 3.3%
    8 x mast and 2 damage. 3.3%
    8 x mast and 3 damage 3.3%
    40 x 0 damage. 16.6%
    24 x 1 damage. 10%
    8 x 2 damage 3.3%
    16 x 3 damage 6.6%

    So in my case there is 240 counters split into the % shown.
    And in full %

    43% crew (10% of crew and a damage)
    6.6% mast
    13.3% sail
    16% miss
    20% hull damage

    So using this data using chain shot you have a 43% chance of causing a crew loss, then 20% hull etc etc
    Last edited by Capn Duff; 08-02-2019 at 09:56.

  20. #20
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    Your post on Chain shot is very interesting Dave, and I'm sure that in the real world or in this case the world of Total War rules it works that way. What I'm really getting at is how much more effective is ball at medium range than chain at ultra short. I can get in two lots of firing whilst approaching or one if I ever reach super close range with chain. So it don't work for standing off and dismantling an enemies sails. We seem to agree on that which answers my original question. The follow on question is still unresolved.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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