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Thread: Sloop to Xebec

  1. #1
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    Default Sloop to Xebec

    Having turned the SoG sloop into Brigs, Bomb Ketches, Schooners, and Brigantines, I've decided to try a Xebec. This is going to be a stretch, but here goes:

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    First I've filed the quarterdeck flat to make room for the exotic stern of a xebec. I also filed the stern down by the rudder to make a finer exit rather than the rounded stern of the sloop and done a small bit of filing at the sloop's beakhead in anticipation of building the exaggerated beakhead of a xebec

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    Here is the stern deck without the bulwarks. It is made up up flat sheets of styrene glued together to make the thickness, then sanded to shape to give the sweeping sheer of a xebec.

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    I am by no means confident this will work aesthetically, but if it does, it sets the stage for converting an Amazon into a xebec frigate.

  2. #2
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    Looking good Dobbs.
    If not too many people answer your development of this thread, I will turn it into a How to when you have completed all stages.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I want to try a conversion....I asked Ares a while back if they would consider doing a bomb ketch as they had forts but sadly never got a reply, so......a sloop as the base or a small 32 gun frigate?

    A Zebec though, thats a challenge...will be watching this one...

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    This may be of interest Steve.

    https://sailsofglory.org/content.php...o-a-Bomb-Ketch

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Thats interesting. I hadn’t consired the need for cards etc....

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    The bulwarks are done and the beakhead has been added.

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    Sharing the stage with the advancing xebec is my bomb ketch Meteor.

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    I don't think Amazon would be the right frigate to use for a conversion. Being sleek and thin is the main characteristics of the Xebecs, very much not so for the Amazon model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilge Rat View Post
    Thats interesting. I hadn’t consired the need for cards etc....
    The base cards, and ship mat cards can be done by one or the other of us. The expensive bit is if you want a none standard deck for a special ship. It is best if you can modify an existing deck. Ink card and time wise I worked out that it was cheaper to buy an existing Sloop to get a spare set of cards than print a set off. With more expensive ships it may be more doubtful, but I use discarded models for parts, wrecks, ships on fire or sinking hulks.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I don't think Amazon would be the right frigate to use for a conversion. Being sleek and thin is the main characteristics of the Xebecs, very much not so for the Amazon model.
    I thought of that, but a strong sheer is also a major part of a xebec, visually, and the Amazons have the strongest sheer of all of the frigates.

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    I removed the mizzen channels, but kept the ones for the main and foremast. I'm not convinced xebecs had channels, but for the big masts, mine does. The same is true with the catheads. I've found a mixture of pictures with or without them, and since they are handy when stowing anchors, I kept them. I suppose my xebec was built in the western Mediterranean by a shipwright with European influences.

    The masts are carbon fiber rod. The beakhead is a small triangular piece of styrene, and the bowsprit is another piece of carbon fiber rod. The sails are made out of sheet styrene rolled around a dowel to give them draft. The yards are styrene rod, glued to the luffs of the sails.

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    Coming along well Dobbs, and also giving some important tips about construction methods and materials to boot. Up till now I have used piano wire for yards, bit carbon fiber seems like a good alternative. I will explore a source for this as my local hobby shop has closed down this year. i expect there will be some remote control model shop around somewhere.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Argh! I realized this morning that the way I bent the sails puts the xebec on a starboard tack, and every other ship in the game is on a port tack. Oh well, now I have practice making lateen sails.

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    After the boobs Ares made with the set of sails on the last release I would not worry overmuch Dobbs. At least both ends of your ship will be tacking the same way.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Dobbs:

    Here is a link with some pictures of a model of Le Requin which was a large xebec built by the French in 1750 as a counter to the Algerian pirates. I believe she was armed with 24 x 8 pdrs. The model does not have channels.

    https://ancre.fr/en/monograph/18-mon...bec-1750-.html

    Eric

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    My thought here is that if the xebec is on a tack where all sails are on the leeward side, it gets the advantageous wind angles. If it does a fast tack, or wears, then on the new tack, it gets the disadvantaged angles on the new tack. If it does a slow tack, the crew is able to dip the yards and allow the yards to be brought to the leeward side of the masts, but once out of the red arc, the ship must start from a dead stop. I felt that the yards could not be dipped if the vessel was wearing, because the wind would be directly behind the ship at that time.

    Which tack the yards are on can be kept track of with a chit marked port/starboard.

    P.S. the sailing angles may look bad here, relative to the stock game angles, but in our house rules, the advantaged angles are the best to be had (shared with the schooners). The disadvantaged angles are 3 masted sloop angles.

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    I like your card Dobbs and in light of nothing else being suggested, it seems to fit the bill nicely.
    I now have a new course to steer with a new ship.
    Great stuff.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Great work Dobbs.

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    Really looks great Dobbs!

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    Finally, progress is being made again.

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    I have a Sloop I was intending to change into a wrecked Sloop. Now I think I will have a different aim in mind.
    Great mod Dobbs.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Sorry Dobbs, this is a late response to your concern about the sail congiguration. A xebec with the wind astern used the "Wing"
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    This configuration prevented the mainsail from taking all the wind from the foresail lateen

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    Really interesting work, well done Dobbs I like your model.
    On a different tack, has anyone thought of using a 1/1200 hull to act as a zebec ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volunteer View Post
    Sorry Dobbs, this is a late response to your concern about the sail congiguration. A xebec with the wind astern used the "Wing"
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    This configuration prevented the mainsail from taking all the wind from the foresail lateen
    I completely agree with your statement about "Wing and Wing", Vol, but my main thrust is, did they "dip" the yard with the wind a stern, or did they actually just allow the sail to blow against the mast? I have sailed small luggers, and this is what I did, and just ignored the imperfect sail shape. It seems like it would be a heck of a chore to dip the yard of a xebec when going from a reach to a run!

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    I know the paintings show a yard that was dipped, but painters often use artistic license.

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    What I have read is that they did indeed "dip" the yard, but as they can sail closer to the wind they tried to avoid to tack as much as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    What I have read is that they did indeed "dip" the yard, but as they can sail closer to the wind they tried to avoid to tack as much as possible.
    When you say tack, Jonas
    , do you mean wear or jibe?

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    Interesting discussion gentlemen.
    Methinks I will hold off starting work on my model until we have a consensus.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Great mod . I was thinking about some similar berberisc pirate ship

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    My idea was to give the American ships I have a chance for a bit of action in the Med.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Interesting discussion gentlemen.
    Methinks I will hold off starting work on my model until we have a consensus.
    Rob.
    It only matters for the mini if you are going to show it running directly downwind, wing and wing.

    It's a tough question. Some models show xebecs with their fore and main yards on opposite sides of of the masts, but others have them on the same side.

    Could the switch them? I can see switching them going upwind while tacking, but while running with the wind behind you? That seems challenging!

    Perhaps artistic license is the way to go!

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    Thanks for the input Dobbs. I feel that with your open approach to the problem, and Jonas's statement about them preferring to sail close to the wind I will go with the easier option, and set the sails as you have done.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    What I meant was that when you tack you switch sides which makes tacking harder.

    The lateen sails can sail closer to the wind than a squarde rigged ship. That's what I tried to say.

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    A good source for thin flexible carbon fibre rod is Accurate Armour in Scotland. They sell sets for use as 1/35 scale tank aerials
    Just search for ‘carbon fibre rod’ on their website.
    Also, has anyone used EZ line for rigging?

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    Since I work on modern sailboats, I like to try and figure out how crews would have handled the ships in our game.

    With a gaff rigged fore and aft boat, the gaff boom ends at the mast. When tacking, the helmsman turns the boat, and the wind moves from blowing over the port bow to over the starboard bow. Since the xebec's booms extend past the mast, unless the front of the boom is "dipped" behind the mast, the sail back winds against the mast. The boat can be sailed like this but it is not as efficient. I suspect that a xebec captain would prefer to sail with all of his booms on the leeward sides of the masts for better sail shape. The exception is when sailing directly downwind, at which point, the captain would want to swing the foresail to the other side to run wing and wing. He could choose to just swing the boom across, but the sail would be behind the mast. The alternative would be to dip the forward end of the boom behind the mast. Until this morning, I had thought that dipping a yard while sailing downwind would be too difficult, but then I realized that, as the xebec turns farther downwind, there's a point when the main blocks the foresail, and it collapses. That's where the crew could dip the sail. Of course if the captain then decides he wants to wear/jibe the xebec, I have no idea how he could dip the main, since at no point during the jibe does it not have wind filling it. It could be that the main couldn't be dipped on the new track until the boat went upwind, or maybe the sail could be eased out during the jibe until the peak was pointing toward the bow, at which point it could be dipped.

    I wonder if anyone has posted footage of dhows sailing. The mechanics should be the same.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 10-09-2018 at 13:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    Since I work on modern sailboats, like to try and figure out how crews would have handled the ships in our game.

    With a gaff rigged fore and aft boat, the gaff boom ends at the mast. When tacking, the helmsman turns the boat, and the wind moves from blowing over the port bow to over the starboard bow. Since the xebec's booms extend past the mast, unless the front of the boom is "dipped" behind the mast, the sail back winds against the mast. The boat can be sailed like this but it is not as efficient. I suspect that a xebec captain would prefer to sail with all of his booms on the leeward sides of the masts for better sail shape. The exception is when sailing directly downwind, at which point, the captain would want to swing the foresail to the other side to run wing and wing. He could choose to just swing the boom across, but the sail would be behind the mast. The alternative would be to dip the forward end of the boom behind the mast. Until this morning, I had thought that dipping a yard while sailing downwind would be too difficult, but then I realized that, as the xebec turns farther downwind, there's a point when the main blocks the foresail, and it collapses. That's where the crew could dip the sail. Of course if the captain then decides he wants to wear/jibe the xebec, I have no idea how he could dip the main, since at no point during the jibe does it not have wind filling it. It could be that the main couldn't be dipped on the new track until the boat went upwind, or maybe the sail could be eased out during the jibe until the peak was pointing toward the bow, at which point it could be dipped.

    I wonder if anyone has posted footage of dhows sailing. The mechanics should be the same.
    There was a lot of discussion of exactly this point on the Naval Action forum since they introduced a xebec into the game (Le Requin. I have also seen YT videos of traditional sailing craft in the Med and the Adriatic racing. They left the boom on the side it was and just seemed to accept that one tack would be disfavored because of the sail shape. I am at work and can't access videos so I'll look for it and post it later.

    Btw - model is looking good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilge Rat View Post
    A good source for thin flexible carbon fibre rod is Accurate Armour in Scotland. They sell sets for use as 1/35 scale tank aerials
    Just search for ‘carbon fibre rod’ on their website.
    Thanks for this extra info Steve. that has saved me a lot of searching, as the model shop I use in Nottingham has just closed down.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Here are a couple of videos of traditional lateen rigged sailing craft. Not three masted xebec of course but having the same issues with rigging and tacks.

    https://youtu.be/PKgj9VAAS_E

    https://youtu.be/in5ML5nI_HQ

    The second one has more sailing and at approx. 6:00 in the video they tack onto the unfavorable side. If anyone speaks Italian you can listen in to the crew. (Hmm now who connected to SoG might that be.... )

  38. #38
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    Well that second video seems to say it all, at least for a boat of that size. Thanks Eric.
    I wonder how much wear the sail gets rubbing on the mast?
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  39. #39
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    You probably wouldn't sail long distances that way.

    I've read that they changed the sails over when travelling. Sadly I can't remember the source.

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    I almost finished my xebec, but now it must languish at home until we return in the Spring.

  41. #41
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    What a shame Dobbs.
    So near and yet so far!
    Still she is looking good.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Looks good. Fair winds and following seas Dobbs on your voyage south!


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