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Thread: Santissima Trinidad stats

  1. #1
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    Default Santissima Trinidad stats

    Thanks to Clipper and the elves we could soon see a viable Santissima Trinidad for the Spanish fleet and a welcome addition to the table.
    So we now need to look into some stats, so here is my thoughts for comment in prep for the Santissima to sail onto the table.

    I have used as a reference Peter Goodwins book The Ships of Trafalgar for the broadsides and a comparison with Ares Santa Anna .

    I welcome comments , suggestions etc so we can have a consensus for the big ship.
    My understanding is the hull was based on the Merigildos class with an extra deck but was known for being unsteady so I have kept the burden the same as the Santa Anna but reduced the veer by 1 due to its stability issues.
    Broadsides stats are taken from the ref book and I have adjusted the values to try and give an educated guess without making it the master of the board.
    Crew stats are again my interpretation comparing the Ares Santa Anna


    Santissima Trinidad Stats

    Burden 6

    Deck F

    Veer 2

    Guns 136

    Crew 1110

    Santa Anna Broadside 1176 30x36p 32x 24p 30x12p 18x8p 4xhow
    Santisima Broadside 1204 32x36p 34x24p 36x12p 18x8p 4x4how 10x24 how

    Santa Anna. 596 586 485 475 474 364 354 353 243 232 122
    Santisima. 696 596 586 485 474 364 354 353 243 232 222

    Actions
    Santa Anna 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
    Santisima. 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1

    12 crew
    Santa Anna 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2
    Santissima 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1

    Feel free to comment

  2. #2
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    The first contention was one which we never actually had a consensus about. Have Ares actually over powered the Spanish ships?*

    With the extra deck and weight of metal I would confer a burden 7. Anything that hits her is going to know it.
    Deck seems sensible.
    I agree with the veer.

    Guns almost one third more in weighting so firepower one third more* see caveat above. I would round down to give less power so.

    5 7 6, 5 7 5, 475 , 474, 464, 354, 354, 343, 243, 233, 122, 111 Dobbs Santisima.

    7 10 7, 6 10 7, 697, 595, 585. 475, 465, 464, 254, 242, 232, 121. My Santisima

    696 596 586 485 474 364 354 353 243 232 222 Your Santisima.

    596 586 485 475 474 364 354 353 243 232 122 Santa Ana.

    If we reduced Santa Ana and all other Spanish First Rates by one, we could bring my Santisima pretty well into line with yours Chris, which I believe would be the right thing to do.

    I make the Santisima's guns add up to 134. Allowing for a bit more weight of metal that makes them about one third more powerful.

    Crew 1110.

    That equates with your crew actions and small arms being the same as Santa Ana so no qualms there.

    So on the whole I would agree on your stats being correct.

    Now I await the experts deliberations. I am here to be shot on my quarterdeck gentlemen.

    Rob.
    Last edited by Bligh; 04-01-2018 at 09:02.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I agree the Ares Spanish stats seem to heavily out gun most other nations, including the French Ocean class which were bigger than the Santissima.
    So if playing realistically I would say to use the gunners lack training rule for the Spanish ships, but as a game it makes the Spanish more of a power.

    my reasoning for my gunnery stats were made using the book mentioned as a reference which comparing Santissima to Santa Anna shows a broadside weight of Santa Anna 1176 pounds to Santissima's 1204 pounds which is a broadside poundage of only 28 pounds to Santissima or approx 20% more so for me a 7 10 7 is too powerful.
    Also looking at the gunnery comparrison Santissima had 2 x36p, 2 x 24p, 6 x 12p and 10 x 24p howitzers ( Spanish version of Carronades but not counted as being the same quality as the RN), so is this enough to give an extra point on the whole broadside stats ?

    For the burden, the extra gun deck was extending the gunwales from Poop deck to bow so would that add enough weight/defensive capability to give the extra point of defence, this would mean at least two hits at close range to fill the box ? For me a burden of 7 would make her a difficult proposition, maybe give either the extra point burdon or the extra broadside strength.

    That was my reasoning for the stats, what say you ?

  4. #4

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    David Manley specifically asked Ares what was going on with the Santa Ana. I don't believe he ever received a reply? I will watch these discussions with interest.

    Also, I ordered the game Navios de Linea Trafalgar 1805 from Trafalgar Editions so can relate some stats from their ships if wanted?
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    yes please Jim, I would be interested in the stats for the game, also if its worth looking into personally, a game review would go down well if you wouldn't mind

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capn Duff View Post
    yes please Jim, I would be interested in the stats for the game, also if its worth looking into personally, a game review would go down well if you wouldn't mind
    Will do. The stats will be easy I expect. The game arrived today, but unfortunately there were no English translations for the rule book included. I'll have to go to their website, download and print out via a local store when I get the time. There were some nice illustrations of the Santisima, which were not in the popularized 'red, black and white' scheme, but rather the yellow and black that probably matched her initial launching scheme.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  7. #7

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    Chris, here's something to start you off with. I just started previewing the English rule set I downloaded from their website. Keeping in mind that I'm more of a modeler than a gamer my first impression is they've done extensive work on the rules.

    Two photos taken with my phone I won't post anymore as I don't wish to violate issues of copyright. From this comparison you'll see that HMS Victory and Santa Ana are identical and Santisima Trinidad slightly stronger. There's additional information in the rules, which anyone can download from their website. Cheers.
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    In my interpretation, I kept Santisima as a Burden 6, but used the 12th box. Historically, it seems like her biggest claim to fame was as a damage soak, and that even with her 136 guns, she hit like everyone else.

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    You may have spotted that I put the 12 box in my evaluation for much the same reasoning Dobbs.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Ok then as a consensus we agree the following

    Veer 2

    Burden 6 or 7 we still need to agree

    Deck are we happy with same as Maregildos or F deck

    No consensus on the gunnery rates but should have 12 box's full damage

    Crew 12 box are we happy with the numbers in my original or do we need to adjust
    Actions any words here or happy with my proposal ?

    Any stats commitee feel free to chip in with any input, are we speaking codswallop or do our evaluations ring true ?

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    Veer 2 AGREE

    Burden 6 or 7 we still need to agree BURDEN 6

    Deck are we happy with same as Maregildos or F deck UNSURE.

    No consensus on the gunnery rates but should have 12 box's full damage YOUR RATE BUT WITH 12 BOXES.

    Crew 12 box are we happy with the numbers in my original or do we need to adjust? HAPPY

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Here's the broadside strengths I used in my conjectural version:

    5 7 6, 5 7 5, 4 7 5, 4 7 4, 4 6 4, 3 5 4, 3 5 4, 3 4 3, 2 4 3, 2 3 3, 1 2 2, 1 1 1

    It strikes me that the Meregildos sailing angles are the worst 1st rate in the game, which would be my vote.

    According to my ship card, the Meregildos already uses the F deck, so that sounds like a perfect choice to me.

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    My numbers are lower than most of the Spanish numbers, as I don't feel the Spanish numbers are accurate, being 20% stronger than comparable ships in some cases. I based my numbers on the French and English 1st rates.

    In fact, I just noticed the other day that the Mahonesa frigates have an additional box of damage compared to all other frigates with the exception of Constitution. I thought that was exceptional, considering that they were 12 pounder frigates. Burden 4 and an extra box!? Hunh!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    My numbers are lower than most of the Spanish numbers, as I don't feel the Spanish numbers are accurate, being 20% stronger than comparable ships in some cases. I based my numbers on the French and English 1st rates.

    In fact, I just noticed the other day that the Mahonesa frigates have an additional box of damage compared to all other frigates with the exception of Constitution. I thought that was exceptional, considering that they were 12 pounder frigates. Burden 4 and an extra box!? Hunh!
    And that completes the case for the prosecution me lud!

    Ares design team in the dry dock.

    Bligh.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    So here are the proposed stats

    Sailing F deck

    Veer 2

    Burden 6
    Gunnery 696 596 586 485 474 364 354 353 243 232 222 122

    This to keep in line with other Spanish models though I like the idea to reduce all Spanish by 1 point

    Crew box 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 1

    Action box 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1


    If no objections Ill make up my cards and mats so ready for when ready to start work on the model

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    696 is ok to maintain consistency with the fantasy Spanish stats. Reduce by 1 to bring in line with everything else

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    That's what I intend to do Dave.
    Use Chris's raw stats, but reduce all Spaniards by one throughout the fleet.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Is that reduce all three factors by 1 in all box or just first?

    Rob as a seperate project to save my mats, I have already made a copy of all the ships, I have just got hold of correct font so will change the details on miy mats.
    I can send you the Spanish to change as they are on a word doc if you wish

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    I would be most grateful if you would Chris.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    About the firepower...
    HMS Victory:
    30 x 32 pounders + 28 × 24 pounders + 30 × 12 pounders + 12 × 12 pounder + 2 × 12 pounder + 2 × 68 pounder carronade = 1148 lb broadside.

    So Santa Ana should be about the same as Victory, maybe a single number raised by one. Santissima's broadside is a little heavier again so another number may be raised by one, but as it has a larger number of guns it should be a slower degradation with damage taken. Note that that if raising many numbers later on may compensate for the heavier broadside too.

    About the burden...
    The Santissima was a Meregildos with a continuous gun deck from the forecastle and the quarter deck. As such there is no additional structure that would warrant a burden higher than the Océan-class French first rates. If looking at the crew number it looks the same when comparing with the Océan-class.

    About sailing...
    Santissima would be even worse to sail than any other ship in the game. Not only had she problems maneuvering at Trafalgar due to the low wind, but her high sides made her leeway terrible! She would have almost 180 degrees red.

    And as you can guess I have never used the Spanish ships and probably never will in any official battle as their numbers are completely taken out of the blue and the models are another scale. I will use them privately with completely different stats. If I were to set up the Battle of Trafalgar on a convention I would probably use "Gunners lacking training" for the Spanish and "Well-trained gunners" and "Good aim" for the British, and that still would not compensate for that first devastating broadside.

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    Good point about the red Jonas.
    I can easily sort that out when I print the card.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  22. #22
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    I agree with Jonas ref the Ares Spanish ships gun values, they do seem a tad up, so my intention was to ensure all the Spanish either have new stats or use gunners lacking training for my Trafalgar project.
    I am not doubting the prowess, dedication or bravery of the Spanish crews but something needs to cut back the stats.

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    That would seem to be the most simple answer Chris, and stays within the rules as written which I always prefer if we can get nearest fit to them. give the Brits trained crews for those Captains that we know were keen on exercising the guns, and we will be about there.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  24. #24
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    Hows this for first draft



    Last edited by Capn Duff; 04-09-2018 at 08:28.

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    Just wondered why firing by the crew did not come down to one in the last box Chris.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Ah error, Ill adjust, thanks Rob, didnt notice

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    I find that it is very common to over estimate how good the Santissima actually was.

    Basically she was an experiment. The Spanish took one of their “standard” first rates and rebuilt her to have a forth gun deck. If this had been something very good they would have done it with more of their first rates, but it was basically a failure you couldn’t admit. She had no real advantage to the French first rates in any way. Weaker armament. Top heavy. Much worse to sail. I seriously doubt that she would be able to take more damage than a ship actually constructed to be of that size from the beginning. Due to har being a symbol she couldn’t be changed.

    I don’t know if it’s a good idea to continue the myth and give people what they expect when talking about the the ship with the MOST guns in the wars, or to try to go realistically. I’m not sure if the Constitution got a realistic set of stats, but it reflected pretty well what people expect.

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    Chris has only made Trinidad slightly more powerful than the Santa Ana for the first couple of boxes so I don't find it much of a problem. What do the rest of the stats committee think?
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I find that it is very common to over estimate how good the Santissima actually was.

    Basically she was an experiment. The Spanish took one of their “standard” first rates and rebuilt her to have a forth gun deck. If this had been something very good they would have done it with more of their first rates, but it was basically a failure you couldn’t admit. She had no real advantage to the French first rates in any way. Weaker armament. Top heavy. Much worse to sail. I seriously doubt that she would be able to take more damage than a ship actually constructed to be of that size from the beginning. Due to har being a symbol she couldn’t be changed.

    I don’t know if it’s a good idea to continue the myth and give people what they expect when talking about the the ship with the MOST guns in the wars, or to try to go realistically. I’m not sure if the Constitution got a realistic set of stats, but it reflected pretty well what people expect.
    I'm with Jonas on this. My only concession is that I gave here the extra box of hull damage, because historically she always seemed to take a beating, but keep on going. I think if it weren't for the storm after Trafalgar, she would have survived to be a prize. However, I've never read any accounts of her laying waste with her 140! guns.

  30. #30

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    I'm not a member of the stats committee so I'll keep my mouth shut concerning any representations of the Santisima Trinidad's throwing weight, defensive capabilities or sea worthiness. However, as a modeler first and a gamer second I will say there's already enough 'Glory' for the British and French navies in this game so some love for the Spanish and American 'fleets' isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just my two cents (and I'll go back to my modeling now).
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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    The stats I am considering are to keep her in line with the rest of the published Spanish fleet.
    The poundage for the broadside for Santissima from my reference books is 1204 lbs.
    However we all seem to think the Spanish ships are over powered, possibly to make up for lack of size, dont think we got an emoticom for tongue in cheek, so when we talk about reducing the firepower for the Spanish are we saying a -1 off each value or just from the central broadside figure?
    I certainly dont mind going through and updating my ship mats for this.
    What about the new frigates are they upgunned also ?

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    As with Jim (Nightmoss), I am not a member of the stats committee but I have been following this thread with interest.

    I took a look at the armament reported for Santissima Trinidad and Santa Ana from two Spanish sources that I pulled off Capn Duff's 2017 thread on the San Ildefonso and then compared them with the armament reported above from Peter Goodwin's book (I just purchased a copy on Ebay Saturday, but won't receive it for a couple of weeks). The Spanish sources show somewhat different armament from Goodwin and I've tabulated the stats in the attached file. If you compute the total firepower (number of guns times weight of shot per caliber of gun) of both ships, they are essentially dead even, so the ship mat should be pretty close. The main difference between the two ships is the larger number and caliber of howitzers/obuses carried by Santa Ana in place of the 8-pounders on her upper deck. The main issue here is the actual performance of the howitzers in action and did Santa Ana really have the same effect with her broadsides as Santissima Trinidad? Note that the broadside weight shown is merely dividing the total firepower by 2, ignoring any bow and stern chasers.

    The spreadsheet is a work in progress and I'm including the other Spanish ships in SOG just to get a handle on their overall firepower in the game for my own satisfaction. I plan to finish it and clean it up once I receive Goodwin's book. I've marked the Goodwin stats in red where I need to complete research on the remaining ships (from all 3 sources). Please ignore all the stats for the Spanish 3rd rates at this point in time. Comments on the spreadsheet are appreciated.
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    Last edited by SeaDog7; 04-09-2018 at 20:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capn Duff View Post
    What about the new frigates are they upgunned also ?
    As I mentioned in a different post, the Mahonesas have an additional hull box (like the Constitution), compared to every other frigate in the game. I can't see the justification for a frigate equipped with 12 pounders to be able to take more damage than a Hebe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    However, as a modeler first and a gamer second I will say there's already enough 'Glory' for the British and French navies in this game so some love for the Spanish and American 'fleets' isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just my two cents (and I'll go back to my modeling now).
    My main concern with this is that it's not possible within the game to recreate this historical glory due to very strange stats.

    I also don't think there should be too much emphasis put on who were in the stats committee. This is something that concerns everyone and should be debated by everyone. (I'm a member.)

    In this case I think that there would be two main roads to follow. Stats if we keep the out of line Spanish and if you would make the Spanish more according to historical facts. Basically I think Duff will use them in an open game and should therefore use as much of the original rules as possible and therefore base the stats on the existing Spanish ships. I'm still not sure about that extra box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaDog7 View Post
    As with Jim (Nightmoss), I am not a member of the stats committee but I have been following this thread with interest.

    I took a look at the armament reported for Santissima Trinidad and Santa Ana from two Spanish sources that I pulled off Capn Duff's 2017 thread on the San Ildefonso and then compared them with the armament reported above from Peter Goodwin's book (I just purchased a copy on Ebay Saturday, but won't receive it for a couple of weeks). The Spanish sources show somewhat different armament from Goodwin and I've tabulated the stats in the attached file. If you compute the total firepower (number of guns times weight of shot per caliber of gun) of both ships, they are essentially dead even, so the ship mat should be pretty close. The main difference between the two ships is the larger number and caliber of howitzers/obuses carried by Santa Ana in place of the 8-pounders on her upper deck. The main issue here is the actual performance of the howitzers in action and did Santa Ana really have the same effect with her broadsides as Santissima Trinidad? Note that the broadside weight shown is merely dividing the total firepower by 2, ignoring any bow and stern chasers.

    The spreadsheet is a work in progress and I'm including the other Spanish ships in SOG just to get a handle on their overall firepower in the game for my own satisfaction. I plan to finish it and clean it up once I receive Goodwin's book. I've marked the Goodwin stats in red where I need to complete research on the remaining ships (from all 3 sources). Please ignore all the stats for the Spanish 3rd rates at this point in time. Comments on the spreadsheet are appreciated.
    One of the main problems is that the 8pounders didn't really have enough power for fighting ships of the line. Even 12 pounders were of questionable use. The light guns made her less effective.

  36. #36
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    As usual Jonas the interpretation of the stats we have dug up will be open to each individual member to use or not as they see fit. I believe this to be in the spirit of what Andrea would wish from what he has said.
    The Stats Committee are in place simply to draw all the factors together in a reasonable way for any members to use as a guide, and give some criteria to back up the use of any ship in an open game where the stats may be challenged by other players. They will at least have the strength of the Stats Committee behind them. I do not want any member to be put in a position when challenged by a member of the public not to be able to back up what he is doing.

    Let the debate continue! I have not even conclusively decided where my position will be yet but it is certainly being modified significantly downward from that first set of stats which I suggested.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I have no problem backing up any member using either high stats based on the current Spanish ships, by the sentiment that a famous ship should have prominent stats and the less you modify the better, or lower stats due to using the second wave of ships as reference for more moderate stats.


    We, the Stats Committee, were gathered mainly to come up with stats for ships not released that were needed for playing battles. I think maybe not all of us were comfortable with disputing Ares official stats and some of the drive was lost when the third wave was released. I don't even own every ship of the third and fourth wave. At least one of each model but not every painted version, and therefore not all stats.

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    Your input is none the less valuable for all that you have just said Jonas. In fact may be even more so as you come to it with no preconceived ideas. Open minds are what we need if the evidence is somewhat contradictory. I think we are drawing a lot from this debate. One interesting matter is the ineffectuality of small pieces against the hulls of First Raters.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Thank you. I hope my comments are taken as suggestions. English is not my first language and therefore I may come across as more... assertive than I really mean sometimes.

    It was a little more colorfully described here:
    https://sailsofglory.org/showthread....ll=1#post37280

  40. #40
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    No problem Jonas.
    As a respected member of this club you have the right to be assertive intended or not.
    Your impeccable English is much better than my Swedish even with my use of Google Translate!
    The funny thing was that I was just reading your comments at https://sailsofglory.org/showthread....ll=1#post37280 when I was turning Bob's picture up the right way, and wondering if we should copy it over to here.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  41. #41
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    Thanks to all for the input here, it has made some interesting reading.
    I am returning to my books after looking at the spreadsheet from Richard to ponder.

    As for the stats comitee, if I have come over suggesting that the group were in anyway wrong or invalid then please take my apologies.
    For me the requests to this commitee is to see if the sugestions made seem valid and in line with other stats in the same vein, so I am looking for affirmatives or stop talking rubbish suggestions. All taken in the vein of making the stats playable gamewise, lets not forget that bit , it is a game afterall.

    I think we all agree that the Spanish stats , for whatever reason, seem to be a bit over powerful and this has lead to some healthy debate for which I for one am grateful.
    I know sails is not a definitive Napoleonic Naval simulation, but it is a great game and I like it to be as accurate as possible.

    So as a general thing do we agree that the stats I put forward capture the ST as per Ares other Spanish or too much

    I tried to give her a bit more in the gunnery due to the number of guns, but not too much due to experience with game play.
    I did not give an extra damage box as she was an upgraded Merigildos class hence same burden and movement deck.

    I have given an extra box for crew due to the extra compliment of crew.

    Now, I have copied all of my ship mats and laminated to help preserve so it would be reasonably easy to change the stats for the Spanish, to bring them into line with the British and French ships. It has been said to reduce the stats by 1 to do this, my question here is would it be a -1 from all the stats ie Full broadside, front arc and rear arc, or only the central broadside figure?
    Is -1 enough or does it need to be more? I ask the stats chaps here as I bow to their expertise in this manner not to make an issue just you may have more experience and better references than I have.
    If we can come to consensus here Ill adjust then upload to the files section all the Spanish, plus a few others that I have done.
    I dont think it breaks any copyright as they will be for personal use or are ships not published by Ares.

    What say you chaps

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    I am happy with that Chris.
    As I said, continue the debate for as long as it takes.
    I will be busy painting my ships.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    As I mentioned in a different post, the Mahonesas have an additional hull box (like the Constitution), compared to every other frigate in the game. I can't see the justification for a frigate equipped with 12 pounders to be able to take more damage than a Hebe.
    I have noticed this discrepancy also, having bought all 4 of the Mahonesa frigates. There is even this issue within the group of 4 ship mats: Mahonesa & Diana each have 10 hull boxes while Ninfa & Proserpina have the standard 9. I will have to add this to my list to investigate. Could this be a printing/editing issue?

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    I have now ammended the Santa Ana stats by 1 to bring more in line, I will do so to the other first rates I have plus Santisima.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capn Duff View Post
    I have now ammended the Santa Ana stats by 1 to bring more in line, I will do so to the other first rates I have plus Santisima.
    For what it's worth I finally had a chance to print out the translated rule book for Navios de Linea, Trafalgar 1805. The Order of Battle/Ship Lists chart included has identical stats between the Santa Ana and HMS Victory/HMS Royal Sovereign (6 dice rolled for damage, hull points of 24). Santisima Trinidad has 7 dice for damage and 28 hull points. When any ship is in the "Sinking Zone" the damage dice are reduced by half (rounding up).
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaDog7 View Post
    I have noticed this discrepancy also, having bought all 4 of the Mahonesa frigates. There is even this issue within the group of 4 ship mats: Mahonesa & Diana each have 10 hull boxes while Ninfa & Proserpina have the standard 9. I will have to add this to my list to investigate. Could this be a printing/editing issue?
    Richard, could you post the Ninfa and Proserpina stats? I don't have those. I bought a Mahonesa.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    For what it's worth I finally had a chance to print out the translated rule book for Navios de Linea, Trafalgar 1805. The Order of Battle/Ship Lists chart included has identical stats between the Santa Ana and HMS Victory/HMS Royal Sovereign (6 dice rolled for damage, hull points of 24). Santisima Trinidad has 7 dice for damage and 28 hull points. When any ship is in the "Sinking Zone" the damage dice are reduced by half (rounding up).
    Interesting Jim.
    So they obviously buy into the more powerful and strengthened to take the extra weight story.
    Although being Spanish could mean that they are a bit optimistic too.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    Richard, could you post the Ninfa and Proserpina stats? I don't have those. I bought a Mahonesa.
    Stats for both ships are identical Dobbs.


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    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Interesting Jim.
    So they obviously buy into the more powerful and strengthened to take the extra weight story.
    Although being Spanish could mean that they are a bit optimistic too.
    Rob.
    Could well be Spanish bias in play? My main point was to indicate the designers thought the Santa Ana was not any stronger than comparable 1st rates of the British fleet. Ares giving the Santa Ana more power doesn't seem justified (which most here have already agreed on). Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ares use a number of consultants from Spain on the third wave, which could well be the source of the Santa Ana's power in game? I don't think David Manley ever got an answer from Ares on this and I know he said he was going to ask them specifically.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    Richard, could you post the Ninfa and Proserpina stats? I don't have those. I bought a Mahonesa.
    Here are the ship stats for Mahonesa and Proserpina. Diana's mat is the same as Mahonesa while Ninfa is the same as Proserpina. I'm also attaching the Frigate/Unrated page from a spreadsheet I've built comparing stats for all the ships I currently own: I built this to help in setting up fairly balanced battles for demonstrations of Sails of Glory that I occasionally run at my local game store in the hopes of building a bigger crowd for our games (not much luck thus far). I hope this helps.

    Edit: So I don't seem able to upload the ship mat file with the correct rotation. My apologies! Also, the Todo a Babor website does not include stats for the Spanish frigates similar to the ships-of-the-line so a direct comparison with the British and French frigates will be difficult to accomplish unless I can locate more detailed information.

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    Last edited by Bligh; 04-11-2018 at 10:48.

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