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Thread: Santissima Trinidad stats

  1. #51
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    Job done Richard.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Could well be Spanish bias in play? My main point was to indicate the designers thought the Santa Ana was not any stronger than comparable 1st rates of the British fleet. Ares giving the Santa Ana more power doesn't seem justified (which most here have already agreed on). Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ares use a number of consultants from Spain on the third wave, which could well be the source of the Santa Ana's power in game? I don't think David Manley ever got an answer from Ares on this and I know he said he was going to ask them specifically.
    As far as I know Jim, you are correct.
    Dave never did get an answer to this question.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Job done Richard.
    Rob.
    Thank you, kind sir! I will eventually get the hang of things as I make more posts. Now off to paint more 15mm Sci Fi troopers for an upcoming space opera!

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    Ahoy folks,

    Apparently threadomancy is a thing. What is dead may never die!

    I was bored out of my mind and took it upon myself to cobble together some ship cards for the Santisima Trinidad. I focused on two variants, her 1769 loadout and her 1805 loadout when she was literally armed to the teeth.

    The best part of this endeavor is I didn't search for this thread until after the fact. I'm happy to say my results offer a decidedly different perspective from what has been posted here!

    The easiest variant to create was the Santisima of 1769. She is virtually identical to the most of the Meregildos in terms of load-out, but has 4 more 8 lb'ers for a total of 116 guns. These are likely quarterdeck guns so I gave her 2 extra points in firepower to her stern partial-broadsides further down the chart. As an added bonus I set her crew musketry in line with the Santa Ana. In total I figured maybe she would be worth around 193 to 195 points?

    Name:  SGNXXX-ShipLog-Santisima Trinidad 1769 123 PTS.jpg
Views: 65
Size:  99.9 KB

    The 1805 variant was quite time consuming and a lot of fun to figure out. Initially I was very tempted to give her the best full broadside rating in the game, a perfect 10. What could be more fun? Except I thought that 10s or even 9s would detract from the Santa Ana, the defacto best metal thrower in the game with the historical evidence to back it up. The problem is despite her fearsome armament the Santisima in her best configuration could not throw more metal than the Santa Ana in her prime. The best broadside belongs to the Santa Ana which, depending on the source, tips the scales at 1,631 lbs in her 1805 configuration. Second best is the Santisima's 1805 config with 1,588 lbs and the Hibernia coming in third at 1,476 lbs. What to do?

    Since I couldn't justify giving the Santisima a full broadside value greater than the Santa Ana's first box I opted to put her best full broadside on par with the Hibernia and boosted her stern partial-broadsides throughout the chart to reflect the outrageous number of guns on her '4th deck' and forecastle/quarterdecks. So how else to differentiate the Santisima from the competition? Strangely enough the (somewhat underpowered) Orient's stats offered some guidance, her full broadsides do not degrade until the first four full boxes are filled! I applied that principle to the Santisima and made her a dangerous beast by extending her power further down the chart. With 140 guns, a massive hull and a large crew will allow the Santisima to remain viable for longer.

    The Santisima's total firepower (the sum of all boxes) is 150 pts, 6 points better than the Santa Ana at 144 and 7 points better than the Hibernia. As with the 1769 variant I copied the Santa Ana's musketry values and added 1 extra point. I feel she should be worth 215 to 220 points. I am somewhat concerned about balance and am tempted to downgrade the second '8' and/or the last '6' full broadsides in her chart by 1 point, and perhaps boost the stem partial-broadside of her first box by 1. Opinions?

    Name:  SGNXXX-ShipLog-Santisima Trinidad 1805 TRIAL 2 150 PTS.jpg
Views: 63
Size:  100.5 KB
    Last edited by Spino; 10-21-2020 at 14:01. Reason: Attachment fairy struck again! Corrected text to reflect imperial pounds.

  5. #55
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    Wrong Peter.



    However, it is a very interesting bit of research, and may well draw comments from some other Necromancers.
    Rob.

    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  6. #56
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    Also just noticed that the attatchment Fairy had struck again.
    Rob.

    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Wrong Peter.



    However, it is a very interesting bit of research, and may well draw comments from some other Necromancers.
    Rob.

    Lol! Yes, sorry about that. I know some forums have policies that discourage members posting the umpteenth iteration of a popular topic, so I thought it best to add to an existing discussion.

    Also just noticed that the attachment Fairy had struck again.
    Rob.
    Fixed!

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    Deck four was full of French obusiers, weapons that were so useless they would have been better served to just mass the crew along the rail and have them drop trou and WHIZZ at the other ship. Basically, my gut would have been to make her a slightly slower-decay but MUCH poorer handling Meregildos.

    To revisit, we did get an answer that the long and short tracks on the Mahonesas were deliberate, my guess is the long-track versions are meant to represent dimensionally near-identical 18-pdr frigates rather than allocate an extra sculpt on a "sideshow" line.
    --Diamondback
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spino View Post
    Lol! Yes, sorry about that. I know some forums have policies that discourage members posting the umpteenth iteration of a popular topic, so I thought it best to add to an existing discussion.



    Fixed!
    I don't mind ressurection spells unless the thread is really dead. Ie. Something has superceed the need for it or it had died a natural death like the one on sailing jokes which had just got too far from the original intention. Most others bring things to the attention of new members who had missed out, or somtimes serve as a timely reminder of a useful bit of info, so don't hesitate to revisit old threads, but do expect the ability card from time to time. As for the attatchment Fairy, we have never caught her, but she just unexpectedly crops up from time to time with no real explaination.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    To elaborate, the overpower on Spanish ships is serious. The numbers on the Nepomucenos assume a 36#/24# or 36#/18# LD/UD load, but most of the time Spanish 74's only packed 24#'s on the LD and 18's or 12's on the UD. They should be no better than a Temeraire, and frankly I would say should most of the time be somewhere between a British 64 and a Bellona, probably closer to the former.
    --Diamondback
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    That certainly is the way i try to play it DB.
    Not very accurate, but for simplicity in large battles I just ignore the first damage box on Spanish 74s.
    Rob.
    Last edited by Bligh; 10-25-2020 at 02:12. Reason: typo
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    As I have said before, I'm not sure if we should downgrade the Spanish or take this opportunity to strech the scale and upgrade the British and French.

    The way it's released is just plain wrong. It's very sad since it together with the very strange physical bug with the ships (wind coming form both starbord and port depending on front or rear of ship) also kind of kills the longing for new ships. I'm a little scared of what they might do wrong with any further releases. Sails turned backward and Turkish ships surpassing any of the Spanish in firepower?

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    I'm all for downgrading broadside strength. I think less power makes for a more interesting game.

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    OTOH, expanding the scale allows more meaningful differences between ships, but we also have that hard 6x12 hull cap to contend with.
    --Diamondback
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    I'm all for downgrading broadside strength. I think less power makes for a more interesting game.
    That too Dobbs. Remember though that I am not an official member of the Stats Committee and as such do not have voting rights.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Deck four was full of French obusiers, weapons that were so useless they would have been better served to just mass the crew along the rail and have them drop trou and WHIZZ at the other ship. Basically, my gut would have been to make her a slightly slower-decay but MUCH poorer handling Meregildos.

    To revisit, we did get an answer that the long and short tracks on the Mahonesas were deliberate, my guess is the long-track versions are meant to represent dimensionally near-identical 18-pdr frigates rather than allocate an extra sculpt on a "sideshow" line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    To elaborate, the overpower on Spanish ships is serious. The numbers on the Nepomucenos assume a 36#/24# or 36#/18# LD/UD load, but most of the time Spanish 74's only packed 24#'s on the LD and 18's or 12's on the UD. They should be no better than a Temeraire, and frankly I would say should most of the time be somewhere between a British 64 and a Bellona, probably closer to the former.
    All fair points and I would agree, except Sails is a tabletop miniatures wargame ready to play right out-of-the box, something that makes it eminently more appealing to casual gamers. It is not a complex, traditional wargame that assumes its customers are period diehards who are willing to spend a lot of time assembling & painting miniatures for several hours before they even play the game! The game design makes a number of concessions in order to introduce a degree of 'balance' and games that can be completed in a reasonable time frame. The Standard rules are remarkably easy to learn & play, making the game very appealing to youngsters. The fact that SoG's system is based on the brilliant but simple Wings of Glory system is quite telling. WoG, while incredibly fun, is about as abstract an interpretation of aerial warfare you can get without invoking hexes & IGO-UGO turn based movement. Why did I state the obvious? Because I assume the designers deliberately sacrificed historical accuracy for 'fun', something historically accurate French & Spanish stat lines might infringe upon.

    The stat lines in SoG already acknowledge the consistently superior seamanship of the RN via the comparatively better maneuver decks and veer ratings. It's a hard sell for me to bring French & Spanish firepower ratings down while leaving their maneuver & veer ratings as-is just because their armaments don't reflect reality. I'm not saying I'm completely satisfied with it, I simply accept it and, as others have stated, am willing to house rule the things I have problems with.

    The biggest problem with nerfing French & Spanish ship stat lines is the potential harm it would do to sales. Why even go to the considerable expense of producing these pre-painted miniatures in the first place if more casual fans of the game know they won't be competitive or fun on the tabletop? It would make the marketing department's job quite challenging... "This is the famous Santisima Trinidad, the most heavily armed ship of her time with a whopping 140 guns! Except some of those guns were completely worthless and others were actually lower rated than what was listed in the official documents... and she handles like a pregnant sow, so there's a good chance she'll lose a one-on-one fight with a British 3rd rate. Now, who among you would like to pay $25 for such a ship? Wait, where are you going?"

    My biggest complaint about the game is the lack of a variable crew skill & morale system that could be applied to each ship. The 'Sailors/Gunners Lack Training' optional rules leave me wanting. As with firepower ratings I would NOT want a slavishly faithful representation of reality for skill & morale, otherwise balance would be virtually impossible!
    Last edited by Spino; 10-24-2020 at 23:47.

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    Frankly, I'd say British and French are pretty well matched for historical performance. Spanish... well, there is always the Massive Point Discount option. I understand why Ares did the stats the way they did in the name of "Tournament/Casual Parity," but... well, for historical scenarios I'm starting to think as we on the Stats Committee look at things that more historical scenario performance might require a "total conversion," and my first move developing such a TC would be to double all Burthens so we have more "headroom" for broadsides. (Another idea I'm toying with in tandem with that is to split it so the three broadsides on each side fire and load independently, giving more room to adjust gun-lines and make differences between ships actually matter.)
    --Diamondback
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    As we say Peter, it is the fun of the game which is paramount, and Andrea does not mind us altering the rules to suit ourselves. Feel free to alter rules pick and choose what you will from those offered at all levels in the official rules book as you care to. As long as the people you play with are happy is all. I switch bits of rules for the preferences of the chaps that I play. Have a totally different approach to solo and games for punters at shows. The stats committee is just to try and make sense of anomalies and try to advise Ares on possible developments. As far as the game goes, just sit back and enjoy it at any level you find most to your liking.
    Sail safe.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spino View Post
    The stat lines in SoG already acknowledge the consistently superior seamanship of the RN via the comparatively better maneuver decks and veer ratings. It's a hard sell for me to bring French & Spanish firepower ratings down while leaving their maneuver & veer ratings as-is just because their armaments don't reflect reality. I'm not saying I'm completely satisfied with it, I simply accept it and, as others have stated, am willing to house rule the things I have problems with.
    They really don't but that is handled by the extra crew cards that was offered to bigger backing levels in the kickstarter.

    Maneuvers also have no big impact on the game as the difference even between frigates and 3rd rates is quite small in practice. There's no way this game could simulate the historical action where a British frigate harassed a french ship of the line by raking her as she tried to sail away and never could maneuver into a position to fire a broadside back. Add to that the very wide broadside area and you have nothing to compensate for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino View Post
    The biggest problem with nerfing French & Spanish ship stat lines is the potential harm it would do to sales. Why even go to the considerable expense of producing these pre-painted miniatures in the first place if more casual fans of the game know they won't be competitive or fun on the tabletop? It would make the marketing department's job quite challenging... "This is the famous Santisima Trinidad, the most heavily armed ship of her time with a whopping 140 guns! Except some of those guns were completely worthless and others were actually lower rated than what was listed in the official documents... and she handles like a pregnant sow, so there's a good chance she'll lose a one-on-one fight with a British 3rd rate. Now, who among you would like to pay $25 for such a ship? Wait, where are you going?"
    No one have been talking of nerfing French ships. The French ships already have an advantage over the British with the historically more or less accurate conversion from guns to fire power. With regards to SantÝsima Trinidad I agree that Ares would be justified in giving her a bit of a hero boost. I think that was done to USS Constitution and HMS Victory, so it wouldn't be out of place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino View Post
    My biggest complaint about the game is the lack of a variable crew skill & morale system that could be applied to each ship. The 'Sailors/Gunners Lack Training' optional rules leave me wanting. As with firepower ratings I would NOT want a slavishly faithful representation of reality for skill & morale, otherwise balance would be virtually impossible!
    There are cards that was exclusive to the kickstarter that I, who have them, think they should reprint and release as that would be a bonus for the game. You can see the same kind of cards in the "hero" packs already released.

  20. #70
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    The Captain/Crew Ability Decks were also available in the site store at BoardGameGeek. Each deck was four complete sets of cards, and IIRC I bought or KS'ed eight decks to have one for each KS/Wave 1 ship. If they do another run, I'd happily add another half-dozen or more to that total...
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