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Thread: Brig

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    Default Brig

    Can anyone tell me what stat's I should use for a langton's Brig or could I get away with just using a sloop's stats?

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    I know it is not quite the same as a Brig, but Dobbs did me these cards for my Sloop / cutter.

    Bligh Sloop.pdf

    This may give you some idea as to the stats for smaller ships Alastair. if you tell me what you have in mind I can doctor these for you. It is just creating a new original that I'm not too good at.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I know it is not quite the same as a Brig, but Dobbs did me these cards for my Sloop / cutter.

    Bligh Sloop.pdf

    This may give you some idea as to the stats for smaller ships Alastair. if you tell me what you have in mind I can doctor these for you. It is just creating a new original that I'm not too good at.
    Rob.
    Allastair, I just use my Ship-sloop bases, but if you want me to tweak a base for you, let me know what you want. I treat my brigs like ship-sloops with one less mast hit.

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    My schooners, my brigantine, and of course, the cutter, have sailing arcs more in line with fore and aft rigs.

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    I would love to see pictures of a Langton brig. Mine are both SoG conversions.

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    Although I only have this Langton gun Brig which I am just starting it may be of some help Dobbs.
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    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killick View Post
    Can anyone tell me what stat's I should use for a langton's Brig or could I get away with just using a sloop's stats?
    I use a sloops stats fo my brig, but alter the rule regarding the number of mast damage from 3 to 2.
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I know it is not quite the same as a Brig, but Dobbs did me these cards for my Sloop / cutter.

    Bligh Sloop.pdf

    This may give you some idea as to the stats for smaller ships Alastair. if you tell me what you have in mind I can doctor these for you. It is just creating a new original that I'm not too good at.
    Rob.

    Bligh or Dobbs,

    It’s been awhile.

    I viewed the cutter card, but don’t understand the color placement for point-of-sail. Does a schooner really sail better into th wind than when the wind is from the bow? What is the blue?

    I’m not disputing; just not a sailor.
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos'n View Post
    Bligh or Dobbs,

    It’s been awhile.

    I viewed the cutter card, but don’t understand the color placement for point-of-sail. Does a schooner really sail better into th wind than when the wind is from the bow? What is the blue?

    I’m not disputing; just not a sailor.
    Yes, boats with the fore and aft rig (like schooners) are faster upwind than down, and here's why...

    We'll start directly downwind. A boat sailing directly downwind subtracts its speed from the wind speed. For instance, if the wind is blowing 10 knots when the boat is raising anchor, the crew (and sails) feels 10 knots. If the boat is able to sail directly downwind at 4 knots, the "apparent wind" (sailing term) that the crew (and sails) feels is 6 knots. As you can imagine, the boat ends up finding a sweet spot, but is always struggling with the faster it sails, the less wind is filling the sails. Fore and aft'ers are not as good directly downwind as square riggers, so I came up with the blue arc, which indicates the boat travelling at the next slower speed than indicated by the sail setting gauge.

    Now, the other points of sail are more complicated (it's vector math).

    If the boat is sailing on a broad reach (with the wind coming over the quarter), the boat combines its forward speed vector and the true wind vector, and gets an apparent wind speed that is actually higher than the true wind speed. In addition to math helping out, none of its sails are blocking each other either, like they are directly downwind. For square riggers, this is the green arc, because they are not really at their best trimming the sails in close (like fore and aft'ers do naturally). On a schooner, the crew has let the sails out to leeward, trying to emulate the square rigger's spread of canvas, but not quite able to compete. That is why I made that arc yellow.

    Finally, the same math applies for upwind, only more so. The square riggers are stuck, because they can't trim their sails fore and aft, because the shrouds get in the way. The schooners are able to trim their fore and aft sails almost to the centerline, and that allows their sailplan to be more efficient upwind than the square riggers. That is why I have made that arc green.

    I hope that helps and doesn't sound like pure gobblideeguck.

    As a sailor in real life, I have made more historically accurate sailing arcs for all of my ships. It's probably not for everyone, it makes going to windward and tacking significantly more challenging (hope you never have to beat off a lee shore with one of my 1st rates). I came up with the schooner/cutter card to allow exploring Baltimore clipper vs. convoy scenarios. I also have a card for a brigantine (hermaphrodite brig), which is sort of a hybrid upwind/downwind sailplan.

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    If you ever want to experience this effect, a sailboat race is the way to do it. Upwind is exciting and the wind is blowing, and the moment you round the windward mark, its like someone switched the fan to the low setting. At the downwind mark, the fan is clicked back up to high.

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    Somw interesting reading for the technically inclined....

    http://www.sname.org/HigherLogic/Sys...3-b04118ef0adb

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    Thanks all for your help.

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    I'd be tempted to say brigs should also be slightly nerfed from identical sloops on crew actions, musketry, speed and maneuvering (less crew and less sail area), but Unrateds are already so statistically insignificant it'd just be adding insult to injury. Rather like smacking somebody in the face with a live trout rather than the back of your hand.
    --Diamondback
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    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

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    A very picturesque simile DB.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobbs View Post
    Yes, boats with the fore and aft rig (like schooners) are faster upwind than down, and here's why...

    We'll start directly downwind. A boat sailing directly downwind subtracts its speed from the wind speed. For instance, if the wind is blowing 10 knots when the boat is raising anchor, the crew (and sails) feels 10 knots. If the boat is able to sail directly downwind at 4 knots, the "apparent wind" (sailing term) that the crew (and sails) feels is 6 knots. As you can imagine, the boat ends up finding a sweet spot, but is always struggling with the faster it sails, the less wind is filling the sails. Fore and aft'ers are not as good directly downwind as square riggers, so I came up with the blue arc, which indicates the boat travelling at the next slower speed than indicated by the sail setting gauge.

    Now, the other points of sail are more complicated (it's vector math).

    If the boat is sailing on a broad reach (with the wind coming over the quarter), the boat combines its forward speed vector and the true wind vector, and gets an apparent wind speed that is actually higher than the true wind speed. In addition to math helping out, none of its sails are blocking each other either, like they are directly downwind. For square riggers, this is the green arc, because they are not really at their best trimming the sails in close (like fore and aft'ers do naturally). On a schooner, the crew has let the sails out to leeward, trying to emulate the square rigger's spread of canvas, but not quite able to compete. That is why I made that arc yellow.

    Finally, the same math applies for upwind, only more so. The square riggers are stuck, because they can't trim their sails fore and aft, because the shrouds get in the way. The schooners are able to trim their fore and aft sails almost to the centerline, and that allows their sailplan to be more efficient upwind than the square riggers. That is why I have made that arc green.

    I hope that helps and doesn't sound like pure gobblideeguck.

    As a sailor in real life, I have made more historically accurate sailing arcs for all of my ships. It's probably not for everyone, it makes going to windward and tacking significantly more challenging (hope you never have to beat off a lee shore with one of my 1st rates). I came up with the schooner/cutter card to allow exploring Baltimore clipper vs. convoy scenarios. I also have a card for a brigantine (hermaphrodite brig), which is sort of a hybrid upwind/downwind sailplan.
    Dobbs,

    Your explanation makes some assumptions that I’m sure are correct, but I’ll never understand. Did you make allowances for a fore and aft rigged ship going wing on wing? (One sail to starboard, one sail to port)

    If I’m running at full speed, the blue area tells me to use the battle sails arrow, but do I use the yellow or green arrow?

    I thought the red area would be smaller.

    Please send your other cards, I am interested in what you’ve done.
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos'n View Post
    Dobbs,

    Your explanation makes some assumptions that I’m sure are correct, but I’ll never understand. Did you make allowances for a fore and aft rigged ship going wing on wing? (One sail to starboard, one sail to port)

    If I’m running at full speed, the blue area tells me to use the battle sails arrow, but do I use the yellow or green arrow?

    I thought the red area would be smaller.

    Please send your other cards, I am interested in what you’ve done.
    My assumption is that a fore and aft'er going dead downwind would use the most efficient sail configuration, which probably would be wing on wing. My thought was that wing on wing was still not as good as a square rigger dead downwind.

    That's a good point about the green or yellow arrows. I had assumed the yellow arrows of the slower speed. but it may be too penalizing. I will have to check out a deck.

    I think I made the cutter's red arc larger than the schooner's because I wanted the show that the longer, sleeker vessel could point closer to the wind.

    I will upload my cards, I just don't know when. My wife and I are preparing to sail south for the Winter, so everything is a rush right now, shutting down the house, business, etc. I don't know how much computer stuff I will be taking with, we just got a new laptop for the trip, but I haven't had time to puzzle it out and transfer files. Will probably do so underway. It might be next week on the cards, or 5 months...

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    Dobbs your cards are always good so I look forward to seeing them in the future. Rob thanks for the cards I will use those and the cards from the sloop model. David those stats are intresting but try to get my head around them..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos'n View Post
    Dobbs,

    Your explanation makes some assumptions that I’m sure are correct, but I’ll never understand. Did you make allowances for a fore and aft rigged ship going wing on wing? (One sail to starboard, one sail to port)

    If I’m running at full speed, the blue area tells me to use the battle sails arrow, but do I use the yellow or green arrow?

    I thought the red area would be smaller.

    Please send your other cards, I am interested in what you’ve done.
    Bob, I just uploaded a bunch of my cards to "Tweaked Sailing Angles" in the House Rules section. I haven't had a chance to do more than ponder the blue angles question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I'd be tempted to say brigs should also be slightly nerfed from identical sloops on crew actions, musketry, speed and maneuvering (less crew and less sail area), but Unrateds are already so statistically insignificant it'd just be adding insult to injury. Rather like smacking somebody in the face with a live trout rather than the back of your hand.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJQp-q1Y1s :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos'n View Post
    I thought the red area would be smaller.
    In going back and checking ,I see that the schooner and cutter have the same sailing arcs, it's just that the schooner is faster (G deck). I didn't want to get any closer to the wind than Ares already had with the French frigates and sloops of war (but you do get to sail in the green arc).

    In my "Tweaked Sailing Angles", the red zone is smaller for fore and aft rigged ships than square riggers.

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    Yes, Ares is quite generous in sailing against the wind. On the other hand I had big trouble getting a French first rate out in a scenario back in 2015. In real life I think they would have waited for a more favourable winds or tried to warp out the ship. Square sailed ships really cannot sail against the wind in tight spaces. I found quite wide channels in Stockholm Archipelago being tight when tacking the brig Tre Kronor af Stockholm.

    About the fire power of brigs, it would be somewhere up to that of the sloops. There's really no lower limit though. Sails can't really handle the lower end of the scale where HMS Speedy and her 4lbs fit. There were all-carronade armed brigs too who could deliver a kick.

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    Hi Dobbs.
    Have you got any cards or stats for Corvettes? I need to portray an 850 ton 26 gunner with a crew of 256 and a 450 ton 20 gunner with a crew of 80.
    Thanks.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Hi Dobbs.
    Have you got any cards or stats for Corvettes? I need to portray an 850 ton 26 gunner with a crew of 256 and a 450 ton 20 gunner with a crew of 80.
    Thanks.
    Rob.
    Hi Rob,

    It is something I have been mulling over, but have not actively made progress on. I will get back to you on this. You provide good motivation. Give me a few days. I am under the weather.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Hi Dobbs.
    Have you got any cards or stats for Corvettes? I need to portray an 850 ton 26 gunner with a crew of 256 and a 450 ton 20 gunner with a crew of 80.
    Thanks.
    Rob.
    What weight of shot are the main guns?

    The 450 tonner with a crew of 80, she's bigger than a Swan, but with a smaller crew? Was she fore and aft rigged?

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    The Corvettes were armed with 12 lbrs. I would take the crew size with a pinch of salt Dobbs. The information is scarce on this ship, and in another part it states that she fielded 40 guns. I doubt this unless she was rearmed with swivels. The crew may well have been a skeleton one when she was delivered from the privateers. I know that Cochrane's ships were short handed, but for fighting purposes I am going to estimate a crew of 120. Just a few less than that of Swan.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    The term corvette is what the French used for ship-sloops and 6th rate frigates. It's definitely included in the scope of Sails of Glory even though we're a little short of ships in that spectrum. Those ships disappeared as frigates got heavier.

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    Probably why the Chilean navy ended up with them Jonas.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Hi Dobbs.
    Have you got any cards or stats for Corvettes? I need to portray an 850 ton 26 gunner with a crew of 256 and a 450 ton 20 gunner with a crew of 80.
    Thanks.
    Rob.
    Rob, the 850 tonner is in the same weight range as the Concordes. If she packs the 26 guns on her gundeck, and is not mentioning guns on her quarterdeck, she could be a Concorde (they carried 26 12 pdrs on the main gundeck). Heck, if she had 8 6 pdrs on her quarterdck and foredeck she could be a Mahonesa. Is there a source online where I could learn more about these boats? Cochrane's adventures are always entertaining.
    Last edited by Dobbs; 12-21-2017 at 19:14.

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    Hi Dobbs.

    This is the best source which i have found for the Chilean ships so far.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_..._Navy_Squadron

    It also makes things a bit clearer for me. the 850 was obviously one of the East Indiamen mentioned here.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Hi Dobbs.

    This is the best source which i have found for the Chilean ships so far.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_..._Navy_Squadron

    It also makes things a bit clearer for me. the 850 was obviously one of the East Indiamen mentioned here.

    Rob.
    Which one is the 450 tonner? That one is definitely in the post ship/corvette size range, bigger than a Swan, smaller than a frigate.

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    That would be this one Dobbs.

    Chacabuco Corvette 450 Coquimbo, before Avon 1818.06 bought from Chilean privateer

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    It's a little bigger than HMS Surprise.

    You could perhaps make one as I made mine?

    https://sailsofglory.org/showthread....r-old-Surprise

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    Corvettes now sorted.
    I am now after a ship base card for Brigantines.
    Anything in your shot locker Dobbs?
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Corvettes now sorted.
    I am now after a ship base card for Brigantines.
    Anything in your shot locker Dobbs?
    Rob.
    I have a brigantine base card, but mine are all adjusted for my "more historically correct" sailing angles (you must be very patient taking a 1st rate to weather). I can make you one up based on the standard game angles though. It is a blend between my schooner card and a ship sloop card, as I figure that a brigantine probably went to weather better than a brig, but not as well as a schooner. Conversely, with the square sails on the foremast, she'd be better off the wind than a schooner.

    Give me a name, and I'll make one up for you.

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    Oh, and is the current Chilean flag a good example for the upper right-hand corner?

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    The Chilean flag has remained unchanged since 1817

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    Thanks Dobbs that would be great, and of course Dave is correct as usual.

    Name:  2000px-Flag_of_Chile_svg.jpg
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    The ships name can be either Aguila or Araucano as I am doing both.
    I can copy your card for the second one so please don't feel constrained to post both. I can change most things on the cards excepting the borders and fire arcs.
    Thanks once again.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  38. #38
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    See what you think of these, Rob.

    Ship Base Cards - Bligh.pdf

  39. #39
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    I based the card on SGN107, as that is what my brigantine is a conversion from. I would have posted a picture, but it doesn't want to upload tonight. I'll figure it out later.

  40. #40
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    Name:  5 bmp.jpg
Views: 487
Size:  72.1 KB

    Name:  4 bmp.jpg
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    Name:  6 bmp.jpg
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    My brigantine, or hermaphrodite brig, Henrietta, and the cutter Dart.

  41. #41
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    Magic Dobbs.
    Just what the Dr ordered.
    Many thanks Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

  42. #42
    Admiral of the Fleet.
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    Virtually the same as my tribe Dobbs. I have one more on order to convert into the Aguila.
    I must say they do look fine.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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