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Thread: 3D Printing

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    Default 3D Printing

    Lately I've been wondering about 3D printing and miniature gaming. I'm looking forward to the day I can print up my own copy of the Leopard and Chesapeake. I'm not so keen on having to paint them myself. :)

    Are we there yet? Are the consumer grade printers capable of spitting out good looking ship models yet? Any idea what the cost in materials is for printing a 1/1000 scale Santísima Trinidad?

    What happens to the hobby when we all have 3D printers?

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    I would say no. The result will be still be "striped" in a way that makes it too visible for our scale.

    There are printers good enough but their price tag puts them well out of "consumer grade".

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    It depends how you want to do them. Do you want a one-piece hull no assembly required, or is some bending and gluing OK?

    If I was going to try to SLP a Sails ship hull, I would print the hull sides and deck as thin, flexible flats and then print a separate frame to wrap them around, much like how a traditional wooden modelbuilder lays planks on a frame except this would be only one "plank" per side. (If my understanding is right, outer sideplates bent around inner frame is how Ares makes the official ones--Jonas, this sound right?)
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    I'm not sure how well the bending would work. Otherwise I agree. It's better to build parts to make sure each part is as well positioned as possible.

    That is unless you have one of those very expensive jewelry printers...

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    I was thinking less "print at home" than "upload to Shapeways and print using one of their Strong & Flexible options." :)
    --Diamondback
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    Only one way to find out, give it a whirl! Then show us the results.

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    Remember the old WizKids Pirates ships? I'm thinking sideplates no thicker than those.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    It depends how you want to do them. Do you want a one-piece hull no assembly required, or is some bending and gluing OK?

    If I was going to try to SLP a Sails ship hull, I would print the hull sides and deck as thin, flexible flats and then print a separate frame to wrap them around, much like how a traditional wooden modelbuilder lays planks on a frame except this would be only one "plank" per side. (If my understanding is right, outer sideplates bent around inner frame is how Ares makes the official ones--Jonas, this sound right?)
    It is how Ares does it on some of the ships, but not all. It might only be the British and French First Rates and possibly the Constitution? At this point I've only broken down the British and French First Rates.

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  9. #9
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    Thanks for that construction picture. I hadn't realized how they went together.


    I imagine the 3d printers will only get better and cheaper. If the current consumer printers aren't ready for 1/1000th scale sailing ships maybe it would be good enough for 1/4800 or 1/6000 Jutland miniatures?

    I know. I'm going to have to jump in and buy a printer. :)

  10. #10
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    I think it would be worth giving it a try if one of us is that good with the design work.
    We could all have a Santissima before Ares even got to considering the designs.
    The way those sides go on anyone who can do the Airfix snap Kits could fit it together.

    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    It is how Ares does it on some of the ships, but not all. It might only be the British and French First Rates and possibly the Constitution? At this point I've only broken down the British and French First Rates.
    The third rates are done the same way with only one gun deck each for the top and bottom pieces.
    Frigates are the same but the sloops are a little different.

    But these pieces are made to that shape. They are not bent. If you print them standing like that you will probably have to put up supports in the 3D model and still may not work. It might be a problem with the guns too. You might have to print each gun deck's guns as a flat piece to glue onto in layers otherwise the guns would sag.

    Ordinary 3D printers print everything in layers and the thickness of that layer is the resolution in the axis up from the printing plate. Those layers is visible and if it's a sloping angle there might be visible threads. This makes the standard printer not that good for our purpose. There are 3D printers that work by lasers making a liquid go rigid (instead of melting plastic and building it up in layers) which may suit us better but those are more expensive and the raw material is more expensive. There are other methods too, but none is cheap.

    The main thing that made the consumer 3D printers cheaper was that a patent ended (for the melting plastic and applying it in layers) and everyone could use that technique for free. Other techniques are still very expensive.

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    I would like to see just what is possible with Shapeways.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Some of you may recall me posting this thread from The Miniatures Page?

    http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=341361

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    Unfortunately, his project appears to be dead as there's been no update since 2015, but I do think this would work very well for Sails of Glory. It follows the some of the same ideas Wizkids had with their plastic pirate ships, but looks infinitely better in terms of historical accuracy.

    Other options outside of 3D printing would include paper printing as War Artisan does on his 1/300 scale ships or laser etching of brass or wood to create 3D ships from 2D forms. In model railroading you can get brass car sides to change the style and road names of various stock and passenger cars. I imagine you could do the same to ships using a base hull and then applying laser etched sides to alter the appearance? Laser etching can deliver incredible detail even at small sizes, but I'm sure there's an increased cost the smaller you go?

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    The major problem is finding someone who has the equipment, time and access to materials to get any of this going beyond general hobby interest.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    I would like to see just what is possible with Shapeways.
    Rob.
    Ken and I both built versions of Broadsword56's USS Niagara available on Shapeways. See the thread here: http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ht=uss+niagara

    The plastic is as Jonas says, striped and/or pebbly, but the choice of plastic as well as the size of the ship does make a difference. On larger ships or something done as a base hull for example might be just fine. High detailed photo etched sides of plastic, metal or wood could then be applied?
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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    HEY! We know Keith has a laser-cutter... how thick is an Ares sideplate? And between thin brass, thin aluminum (thinking maybe unroll and flatten soda cans here, recycling what's already household junk) or various thin stripwoods, what's our best bet for detailability and easy bend-to-fit without breaking?

    My thinking is that if we have an SLP "frame/core" that the sideplates slap onto, it won't matter if the core prints as "steps" other than the gun barrels. And in a pinch we could have the core modeled with sockets to use fine dowel-rods for the tubes... so what we really need first and foremost is a very good 3d modeler and high-resolution scans--I'm not sure the ~1200-pixel-wide ones I have from Greenwich are big enough and clear enough to render from.
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    This is progress in the right direction gentlemen.
    I had a feeling that once we got the big guns on the case we would get some great ideas.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    I've sent Martin an email regarding his laser cut card and mdf ships to see how they are going if at all.
    He did lose access to a laser cutter some time back and he was going to send me the files to look at and play around with but unfortunately that never eventuated.
    The yearly convention Little Wars where I saw the ships in question unfortunately was postponed last year and I'm hoping it will be back this July.
    He lives on the other side of the city than I do and I maybe get to bump into him once or twice a year at a convention or club open day that we were both members of.
    I'll keep you advised and let you all know when/if he replies.

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    Cheers Alan.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twsl View Post
    I've sent Martin an email regarding his laser cut card and mdf ships to see how they are going if at all.
    He did lose access to a laser cutter some time back and he was going to send me the files to look at and play around with but unfortunately that never eventuated.
    The yearly convention Little Wars where I saw the ships in question unfortunately was postponed last year and I'm hoping it will be back this July.
    He lives on the other side of the city than I do and I maybe get to bump into him once or twice a year at a convention or club open day that we were both members of.
    I'll keep you advised and let you all know when/if he replies.
    Thanks for that update Alan. So many folks were enthusiastic when he posted those photos up on The Miniatures Page. I hope he responds and thanks again for your effort in contacting him.
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    I would say don't buy a 3D printer for this purpose, but 3D printing is a FUN hobby in it's own right and crosses over into other hobbies (like wargaming) in fun and rewarding ways.

    Most personal FFF/FDM printers aren't going to produce cast quality miniatures, but you can turn out ships for $0.20 each and they look alright with a little paint.

    Epoxy resin printers are exciting and can produce really good results but even the cheap ones are a couple thousand and the home built ones are bleeding edge tech - not plug and play...,

    I've actually just started working on modelling a set of Napoleonic ships. See my post here.

    Check it out, comments welcome!


    Attachment 29228

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    Certainly seem to have some mileage in them for development into a usable product in the future when their lines can be refined David. it will be interesting to follow future developments.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Certainly seem to have some mileage in them for development into a usable product in the future when their lines can be refined David. it will be interesting to follow future developments.
    Rob.
    To be fair, my printer isn't fine tuned at the moment - I'm working towards upgrading it running on duct tape a binder twin. A carefully tuned printer can do better. A better paint job would go a long way too, I'm rather out of practice.

    I can populate the battle of Trafalgar for ~$20 though :)
    (Not counting the cost of the printer, because I'd have it either way.

  23. #23
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    Hi Dave, I hope you did not take my remarks as adverse criticism of your work.
    It is far better than anything I could produce for that price.
    More strength to your arm, and as I said I will be interested to see the end results.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Not at all, but I wouldn't want to my crappy paint to discouraged someone with a real interest in 3D printing :)

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    Having looked at your clearer pictures on the other thread, there is nothing crappy about your painting either.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    What happens to the hobby? After thinking on it a while...

    Forward-thinking kitters (GW, Mongoose or Zvezda, not the prepaint-and-preassemble market like Ares tries to target) start moving to digital distribution with Pay-Per-Print DRM, like "renting" a streaming movie: You get X number of prints before the file deletes or fries itself and you have to buy more. EXCEPTIONALLY forward thinkers will code their packages to allow user editing, leveraging community creativity to develop new offerings while their own dev teams focus on the heavy-lifting work (say, while the community develops the endless streams of Sherman and T-34 variants Corporate Design Team moves on to Stalins and Pershings). Instead of having production in China and scheduling and shipping lag (like the forever-and-a-day of Ares), maybe they license LGS's with 3d printers to Print-on-Demand.

    Now imagine how fast and how affordably we could build our fleets if Ares did this... :)
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    I like your thinking DB, especially about the LGS. Rather like going into your store and ordering a Regiment of Dutch Jagers, and getting the still warm castings in your hands within an hour. I will never forget the feeling of that one. Skytrex at Wymeswold would also produce aircraft while you wait. Translate that to printed kits and as you say the ball game changes dramatically.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Now I'm having nightmares about other industries doing it too... for example, on the Sig-Sauer P320 the US military just bought to replace those nasty-ass old wristkiller Berettas, the serial-numbered "receiver" (the part that's legally the gun itself) is just the fire control group, so imagine the huge advantage they'd have if they embraced SLP for the consumer sector to have gunshops fit the grip to your hand and SLP a frame made specifically to fit you right there.

    I don't know how to say this, but if SLP keeps going the way it is, it could mean the end of most consumer-goods manufacturing and shipping as we know it within my lietime.
    --Diamondback
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