Interesting now you note it. The gun ports on the Portland do look significantly smaller than the rest of my ships.
Interesting now you note it. The gun ports on the Portland do look significantly smaller than the rest of my ships.
Yes, Hugh, it was the gunports that made me first ponder it too. On the Artesien, the second gundeck ports are tiny! On neither model do the guns themselves stick out as far as on the 1st and 2nd Wave minis.Originally Posted by Hjl
The more we delve, the more dissapointing this is looking.
I just received the French 64 so going to do some comparing later tonight using my Rifkin books, cant believe these issues are cropping up.
It could well be that Wave 3 is all 1/1200? Following up on DB's comment, if the production side still has their CAD drawings to compare to the molds it might be easy enough to answer that? But that would depend on the production sides integrity in giving an honest answer?
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
If Ares was to re-tool and release Wave 3 in 1/1000 scale, I would buy my ships again, and consider the ones I currently own as a well intentioned oops. Has anyone looked at the movement cards yet to see if they are correct? I haven't opened mine yet. I had mentioned in a different post about the spankers being reversed on the Portland and Artesien mizzen masts on the picture cards.
Could it be Rory hacked the CAD files?
Doesn't matter what the Chinese have--Ares almost certainly still has the original CAD models and *they* could compare them... unless you're like a few people who've contacted me anonymously that no longer trust Ares.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Speaking for myself, after all the work *I* personally put into Wave 4, if they blow that one I'm done. "Finito, Benito" and all that...
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Have Ares had anything at all to say yet?
Surely they cant be oblivious to what we think has happened, I for one would like some sort of comment, even if its. Ooops we mucked up.
That is certainly the least that they could do.
Poor customer relations and after sails service can sink a firm quicker than the Orient.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Could be, but I think he would have gotten rid of that plastic peg on the bottom of the ships at the same time?Could it be Rory hacked the CAD files?
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
It would be nice to have a word even if not official.
When wave 4 comes out I will wait to order until I've heard about all mistakes I now am expecting and see if they are easy enough to fix myself.
They have lost my trust. Speaking out and making sure they will not repeat it may restore some.
They still haven't responded to the first question that came up about Wave 3; that being the seemingly overpowered Santa Ana broadside. I know David and perhaps DB both contacted them about it and not a word has been heard back.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
I don't necessarily mistrust Ares at this point, but my confidence in their ability to 'get it right' has been rather compromised.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
The broadside is the Napoleon complex. Little ship, big attitude!
I haven't personally, I've been mostly trying to focus on Sculpt/Colors & Markings QC issues. And with it now being February and Crickets since August... I even back-channeled to Andrea asking for his advice about how to bring up The Elephant in the Room and no reply there either.
Have any of you guys who post on their Facebook page seen any responses lately? Perhaps some questions are better directed there, as much as I prefer to handle "dirty laundry" internally and then make a statement afterward about "we have had some issues about XYZ, we apologize for them and we are already taking corrective action to prevent the from happening again."
Too bad the rest of the world doesn't have the same preferences as I do for clear, consistent communication and swift mitigating action... like a hotel where the manager's picking a fight because of the "unbearable odor" from my mother's Depends after two weeks bedridden with the flu (even after regular hosedowns with Lysol and heavy use of air-fresheners) and not one word of indicating any problem previous to this. If they no longer desire our business, we can and will gladly take our thousand-plus bucks a week and Platinum loyalty-program status somewhere more appreciative... and for the amount that we've normally stayed here, they can find some other revenue source to pay for a desk clerk or three maids' annual wages.
Last edited by Diamondback; 02-06-2017 at 16:34.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
I think I'll post the question on Facebook.
I await the response, if any be given, with interest.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I've refrained from going 'loud' on the media pages, but not being a Facebook patron makes that easy. I've not posted anything on Board Game Geek either. Andrea checks in there pretty regularly although his last Sails of Glory post was January 20th?
I sure hope they're not adopting a bunker mentality? That wouldn't be good for anyone.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
We must just hope that it is because they are very busy, or because they just have not picked up on the undercurrent of discontent yet Jim.
It may be that someone is even now trying desperately tho find out what went wrong and why.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
I spent some time to measure my models (with a digital caliper), to compare their dimensions. Unfortunately most of my wave 3 models are still crossing the Atlantic.
First of all I had to develop a standard.
Length: I measure the length at waterline from the base of the cathead to the stern post (I think it should be more or less equal to the gun deck length in this scale for most ships, but not all);
Beam: easy one, the beam at waterline;
Height: measured amidships from the waterline to the weather deck (useless, just my curiosity, to compare decks’ height among the waves).
I rounded up and put them down on a table with data from various sorces of the real ships (in meters = to millimeters in 1:1000 scale).
You can notice there is consistency between wave 1 and 2 models (including special packs).
Last think I did was to write down the “should be” length and beam of wave 3 and 4 ships.
I hope the attached file works,
Cheers.
A very interesting comparison Franco.
Thanks for your time and effort on this.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Finished rigging my French battlefleet now, just the new arrival, and two 64 from the new wave to do
This gives my French 6 first rates and 16 x 74s of various types, is that threat enough :)
Last edited by Capn Duff; 02-11-2017 at 16:56.
So, most of Waves 1/2 scale out around 1/1050-1/1075. The only bang-on 1/1000 is the Swan; the First Rates are around 1/1100. Meregildos actually clocks in at 1/1204.
Of course, there is also the distance ahead of the catheads excluded that brings the scale numbers closer to line... Franco et al., if you just measure straight down the centerline along the bottom and subtract the cutwater and rudder/sternpost that should be reasonably close to Lower Deck Length.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Yes DB, you are right. The point is wave 1 and 2 ships compare well. It seems they have used the same ratio to reproduce them, a sort of logarithmic ratio; smaller ships are allowed for slightly bigger size, larger are slightly penalized but not too much (maybe to allow enough details on small ships and for ease of production, while staying on the base for larger ones). At the end you really need to measure them: if you just look at them on the table everything seem well balanced, Meregildos are out of tune. I haven't seen the other models in wave 3, I hope they fit better, and I definitely hope wave 4 will be comparable to wave 1 and 2.
Cheers,
Franco
Last edited by Comandante; 02-12-2017 at 08:00.
If it is any use, here are the visual comparative sizes of my Spanish Squadron for playing purposes
.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Well... Compared to the Spanish 74s the French 74 do look like an 80...
The French 74 is almost bigger than the Spanish firsts. That Portland looks about the same size as the Spanish 74.
We're the Spanish ships noticeably smaller in reality? Has the fact that they are suppose to be smaller been compounded by the scale being wrong to the point where they look way too small?
Edit: I read that wrong... I talk about the models, not the historical ships. There are dimensions given for those earlier in the thread therefore I thought it was the models in real life you mentioned.
The first rates really do look small on the table if other ships are close by.
The 74s... I don't know... They're not good, but it's the first rates that is the eyesore.
They're supposed to be impressive huge things that makes the small British 74 HMS Captain like David vs Goliath, but they're not.
Last edited by TexaS; 02-12-2017 at 14:45.
Keith and I have been discussing an idea... the fix I'd been thinking of for SGN108/201 may also work for Meregildos and Bahama.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
No, Hugh, actually the Spanish ships were BIGGER. Bahama is the smallest of the Gautier 74's (largely because she's a rebuilt and upgraded 64) and should have about parity with SGN104, the others closer to but still smaller than Temeraire. The short version of Meregildos should be a little longer than SGN108 and 201, the long should be close to but a bit shorter than Ocean.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
That is interesting DB. I shall watch this space with interest.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
The BAD news is, even if it works and we can pull together the talent required you'll have to arrange your own masts, and use the bases and paperwork from your existing miniatures--this is a "Correction Kit" not a total-replacement product.
Also, re stepping on Shapeways SLP... I just happened to find something of about 6cm size that I'm intimately familiar with and the fullsize article it's a model of is almost the size of my whole body, that passes for smooth and detailed enough to pass my muster--consider that the skull of a Tyrannosaurus rex is so geometrically complex it makes a three-decker look like a wooden crate by comparison, and take a look at this.
https://www.shapeways.com/product/VW...ionId=60336733
Some of his other skulls at first glance look just as good--I don't know them as well as I do the tyrannosaur skull whose cast a friend brought back from her dig. (She thought it was funny as heck watching me study it... "you know that's a little too big to do Hamlet with, right?")
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
We can use the current bases etc, its getting the ships the correct length etc we need. As for masts maybe we need to contact the member who already makes ships on Shapeways for her assistance, cant remember her name off the top but Ill look , Broadsword something I think. Msybe she can asist.
Certainly some of us would be up for it. Even an existing mast can be lengthened.
I also have a set of three decker masts left over from making sinking ships which may be suitable for one Spanish ship.
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
Do any of you have a 3D scanner?
I use 123D catch to do the 3D scanning I've done in the past. It's free and easy to use. Just take pictures of the model from the given angles and it processes it into a 3D image. It's good at geometric shapes and models etc, but not so good at faces and stuff like that.
Last edited by Hjl; 02-13-2017 at 05:24.
Hugh, I've been looking more at a "back-to-the-blueprints" approach. I'd rather not say too much until I 1. know if it's even possible, and 2. have at least found someone who can convert drawings to digital model to start negotiating with.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Good or bad I'm anxious for anything that will correct the size debacle of the Meregildos. Gina (Broadsword56) has done quite a bit with Shapeways 3D printing. Her Niagara and sails sets are still listed there.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
A picture is worth a thousand words
I worked a little bit on figures and developed a graphic.
The 1:1000 scale is the blue x=y line (meters to millimeters);
The red segment was obtained by joining the lengths of wave 1 and 2 models I measured, and is close to
the purple straight line: y=5/6 x + 29/6
Finally in green is how Meregildos deviate from the straight pattern.
According to the above (purple) equation wave 3 and 4 ships length should be (rounding up to the closer ˝ mm):
Meregildos 54 mm;
Nepumeceno 49 mm;
Artesien 48 mm;
Portland 40.5 mm;
Tonnant 54 mm;
Ardent 45.5 mm;
Bonhome Richard 43 mm;
Mahonesa 41.5 mm.
(my previous figures on the excel file I posted were incorrect. I will update and post the file soon.)
Cheers,
Last edited by Comandante; 02-13-2017 at 14:40.
(My ears were tingling so I stopped by and sure enough, my name has come up...)
First, so sorry to see what disappointment you're all having over the way the latest Ares ships have turned out. They should treat their most loyal customers better!
I read through this thread just now to get up to speed, but I didn't look into all the charts and drawings. So let me make sure I understand the problem:
You believe some of the latest Ares ships (just Spanish ones?) are not correctly 1:1000 scaled. Right?
Is it only the hulls that are the wrong scale, or the masts and sails too?
Based on my experience in designing and 3D printing 1:1000 scale ships, there are two basic ways to go about fixing it:
Option A: Do a 3D scan (as someone suggested above) of the existing models, re-scale them, and use Shapeways to print them. You might want to sacrifice a model and snip the masts off it so that you can scan the hull separately. Also, your 3D scan will likely have excessive detail and odd bits of "noise" that you will need to clean up. It's also usually a good idea to reduce the polygon count a bit to simplify the design to just its basic form and make it a digestible file size for 3D printing. One good piece of software for this is called 3D Coat, but it costs money for a license. There may be some decent freeware you can get to get the scan cleaned up and simplified, but I don't do this so I wouldn't know offhand. Once you have a nice, clean hull scan, you can export it to an .stl or .obj format and then import it into a program for rescaling. I use a free program called 123D Design. In that program you can use either the scale tool (to scale the entire hull) or you can use the smartscale tool, which lets you scale the x (length) y(breadth) or z (height) dimensions independently. Just set it to the mm you want and you're all set. Then export your correctly scaled hull back into an .stl file and upload it to Shapeways to get it printed to order. You can follow the same process for rescaling masts and sails if you like the Ares versions, but another alternative is to just buy my mast/sail assemblies. I can scale my 1:1000 frigate mast/sail pieces up to whatever you'd need for first rates if you tell me what dimensions you need.
Option B: You could re-do the ships from scratch. This is how I build all my War of 1812 models. I start with the historical ship drafts (and it looks like you already have all those) and I use a free program called Delftship, which is used to build real ships. The program lets you import the side, sheerplan and bodyplan views of the draft as backgrounds, and you create the points and lines over the drawing to make the 3D model. This takes a long time to do, especially if you're new to it. I export the Delftship hull into various other freeware programs to clean it up and repair it, check the scaling, and then I upload the .stl file to Shapeways. I also use 123D Design to test-assemble the entire ship kit and make sure all the parts look good fitted together. I'm have other time commitments, and my site is just for the my War of 1812 models, so I'm not interested getting involved in in this project myself. But I can help you if you want to buy any of my existing parts, or have me just re-scale some of them to your needs so you can buy them to refit your own models.
By my calculations, the LD lengths for Wave 4 within a mm or two should be 49mm (Ardent), 46mm (BHR), 44mm (Mahonesa) and 59mm (Tonnant). Your math suggests, if I'm applying it right, that I should tell Ares a waterline length below respective minimums of 46mm, 43mm, 42mm and 54mm should be "Reject Entire Batch"--sound about right?
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Yes DB, with a waterline length around that figures (46mm, 43mm, 42mm and 54mm, more or less) should work to have wave 4 to a ratio similar to wave 1 and 2.
DB, what I suppose from the graphic is that ARES (consciously? It seems to perfect to be unintended.) applied a reduction ratio over the scale.
Probably they used a different equation but the logic seems to work. The Swan (I remember I read it somewhere) are the smallest ships they will ever do (correct me if I am wrong), and there was nothing larger than the Ocean at the time. the Swan is 1/1000 scale, the larger the ship the smaller the scale (but just a little bit and linearly). It doesn't seem they did the same for the Beam.
Swan is about what they consider the lowest length they CAN make, within a millimeter or so (I've suggested that if they really wanted to do smaller, they could by just molding the hull as part of the base-lid.). If they're distorting things keeping the beam but squashing the length to create "overweight" Fat Boy versions, that goes against everything we were promised in the Kickstarter, at least to my perception.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
For those interested, my Shapeways store with all my 3D printed 1:1000 scale ship kits is Swash and Buckle Naval Miniatures:
https://www.shapeways.com/shops/swashbuckle
I have 40 items for sale (14 hulls, 26 rigging parts) comprising every ship type that fought on Lake Ontario in the 1813 campaign.
Those of you who play SGN might be particularly interested not only in the British and US brigs and corvettes, but also the USS General Pike (a frigate very similar to the USS Essex). You could even make your own square-rigged or schooner merchant ships from, say, the hull of my largest converted merchant schooner and the larger rigging pieces.
Gina, how close was Pike to Essex? Are we talking just cosmetically very similar, or a known "same plans" relationship?
Why I ask is, if Ares does another bungle like the British First Rates, Baby Bahama and Mini-gildos when Essex enters the game, I may be looking for a replacement figure to go on Essex's base... assuming they don't strike my Screw This I'm Outta Here threshold first.
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Re: the USS General Pike -- Here's a terrific article all about the Pike:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/milit...eneralPike.pdf
The article even has tables on Page 5 that compare the Pike and the Essex in great detail. Capt. Sinclair (her skipper and the man who oughtta know best) said the Pike was 3 feet longer and 1 foot wider than the Essex. But no one knows for certain because Eckford's plans have never been found. I used the Essex plans and modified them s bit to better resemble what the Pike was described to look like. For example, the Pike had " a forecastle deck above the gun deck running from the bow to the fore mast and a quarterdeck from the mizzen mast to the stern." That's where the Pike had its pivot-mounted long guns, and my model shows them.
Re: the USS General Pike -- Here's a terrific article all about the Pike:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/milit...eneralPike.pdf
The article even has tables on Page 5 that compare the Pike and the Essex in great detail. Capt. Sinclair (her skipper and the man who oughtta know best) said the Pike was 3 feet longer and 1 foot wider than the Essex. But no one knows for certain because Eckford's plans have never been found. I used the Essex plans and modified them s bit to better resemble what the Pike was described to look like. For example, the Pike had " a forecastle deck above the gun deck running from the bow to the fore mast and a quarterdeck from the mizzen mast to the stern." That's where the Pike had its pivot-mounted long guns, and my model shows them.
A well proportioned looking vessel Gina.
Thanks for posting it.
I'm sure that there will be some interest forthcoming from our membership.
Did I ever mention the Santisima Trinidad to anyone?
Rob.
The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.
*smacks Bligh with dirty sweat-sock*Did I ever mention the Santisima Trinidad to anyone?
Rob.
:p
--Diamondback
PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.
Someone here was talking about doing a 3D printing of the Santisima Trinidad in 1/96 scale. No final photos so I expect they never did attempt it although the 'model' was digitally ready to go?
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/...rinidad/page-6
Other parts of that thread have some interesting information and photos as well.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
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