A new threat to the British Fleet.

[Bligh]

Today a new squadron of Spanish warships put to sea from Ferrol hoping to join up with the French Fleet.




They were shadowed by HMS Bellerophon and several Frigates.




After hugging the Spanish coast for some time they finally came about and headed West.




Bligh.

[Nightmoss]

Looks very nice! Enjoy!

[Bligh]

Cheers Jim.
When I get time I will photograph my British and French Fleets up to date as well.
Rob.

[Hjl]

I can't wait to see those mighty Spanish firsts in action!

[Bligh]

They should be sailing in a couple of weeks when Sea legs pops around for his next game Hugh.
Rob.

[Union Jack]

A mighty armada there Rob. Hope the Royal Navy are up to it once they link up with the French.

[Bligh]

The Combined Fleet is now stronger than my Royal Navy by two first rates and three 74s.
What I could do with are those 90s. I will have to do a couple of conversions before too long.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Trivial note: the two Purisima Concepcions (one of which, San Jose, was reflagged into the RN as HMS San Josef) were direct ancestors to the Meregildos, and they in turn evolved from the original threedecker version of Santissima Trinidad. So if you need an ST placeholder, just fill in the space between QD/FC on a Meregildos.

Source: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:...281771-1805.29 via Google Translate

[Bligh]

Cheers DB.
I may well do just that.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

I might say to nerf the older ships a little, especially Trinidad--she wasn't exactly "all that" and one whole gundeck was those useless obusiers where they would've been better off to drop trou and fling poop at the other ship.

[Diamondback]

Addendum to prior: While there may be an engineering relationship, the bows and stern galleries show pronounced differences (Meregildos has a more raked stern and bulkier bow section), so it might be prudent to not rush in unless or until we can find some blueprints and drill into nuts-and-bolts details.

[Bligh]

Wilco that DB.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

Addendum to prior: While there may be an engineering relationship, the bows and stern galleries show pronounced differences (Meregildos has a more raked stern and bulkier bow section), so it might be prudent to not rush in unless or until we can find some blueprints and drill into nuts-and-bolts details.

DB, this question might belong elsewhere, but how accurate are the scale sculpts of the Merigildos ships? I ask because the Santa Ana and other ships in that class are noticeably smaller than HMS Royal Sovereign, Victory, etc. Langton sculpts have the ships much closer in matching size with Santa Ana slightly larger?

[Diamondback]

Bearing in mind that I have nothing of Wave 3 in hand and no draughts to work from...

Per ThreeDecks design length on the Meregildos class is 58.51m, most built being a bit shorter (as short as 57.14). Victory, the alleged basis of SGN108 and SGN201 both is 56.08. So Ares goofed, the Meregildos model should be about 2.5mm longer... Between this, Wave 2's weak masts, the inaccuracies of 108 and 201 and the pseudo-Karl Bf109 I'm starting to have serious questions about these guys.

108 and 201 are a double concern personally because *I* *personally* got them copies of the relevant blueprints and they STILL managed to Balls-Up it! :( And given that their product reflects on MY work... forgive me if this seems self-centered, but every time *they* score an Own Goal they also invite questions into the quality of *my* work that contributed to it, and when you're a freelancer your career lives or dies by your reputation and your prior body of work. :(

I WAS going to fire off a note asking Rob if I could use them as a resume reference when the time comes for me to seek more conventional employment, but now I'm not so sure...

[Nightmoss]

Thanks DB for the reply. Your answer is good enough for me and confirms my eye ball view of the two ships side by side; in both the Langton and Ares scales. If I get some time I may take some measurements to compare.

DB, I for one would never question your work based on what Ares eventually produces. Examples of your research and attention to detail have been pretty obvious to those of us that have been on this site for a number of years. Clearly you take your work seriously. It's unfortunate that the final production issues might put you in a bad light.

[Bligh]

I am really sorry that Ares have put you in this position DB.
I know how it feels when we advise film Directors on Historical points and then they ignore the correct weapons, costume etc, but still add our names to the credits for Historical research, and I'm not trying to make a living at it.
I would like to see an answer to this latest with a reason given. It's the least they can do for you.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

On the other hand, Ville de Paris was 57.92m and Hibernia was 61.32m - all these lengths I've given are Main Gun Deck, so they do not include gallery raking and I'm not sure how much of the bows they include. If we knew OAL's for the fullsize ships, we could better compare--or, Jim, if Rob can get you Stats Committee access I've been working on waterlining and rescaling Greenwich draughts to 1/1000 scale, which you could compare the models to for yourself and decide closest fits about the mysterious and not-quite-right origins of SGN108 and SGN201, and their mysterious wrong-side size comparison to SGN112.

Curiously, there was a similar problem in my Axis & Allies War at Sea days... the Chinese factory underscaled one miniature in one set, and rather than let it derail the set Rich Baker just chopped that mini out of the entire set and told 'em "next set do it again and do it RIGHT, schmucks". Combine that with the Messerschpitt Debacle... ("Spitfire" mini in Ground Game, a Bf109 in RAF colors)

PLEASE, for the love of all that is holy, DON'T BECOME WOTC, ARES!

Rob, in your position I would have told the Hollyweirds "remove my name from your work or I sue for defamation." The reason I stick with Ares is I really think they're trying and genuinely want to Do Right, it's just that sometimes people get blueprints mixed up (Bf109K, I'll tell the story of another when Wave 4 is formally announced) and sometimes the folks on the factory floor don't quite understand what they and we are looking for.Kind of like an eager-to-please puppy that really wants to, but just can't seem to avoid peeing on the floor here and there every now and again...

[Kentop]

I am really sorry that Ares have put you in this position DB.
I know how it feels when we advise film Directors on Historical points and then they ignore the correct weapons, costume etc, but still add our names to the credits for Historical research, and I'm not trying to make a living at it.
I would like to see an answer to this latest with a reason given. It's the least they can do for you.
Rob.

It can actually work in your favor. Look at the guys who did the historical research for the Braveheart movie! That movie looks like a really bad sci-fi flick. Wallace wearing a mullet AND a Kilt AND painting his face blue? Really? The consultants for Braveheart are very well regarded for their work. They forced the production company to literally deny basic historical details for the sake of the box office. It's all a consultant can do; provide facts, dates and historical context. The movie makers can either ignore or embrace the historicity of events.

[Hjl]

I've never really considered the sog ships to be particularly accurate. I had just assumed that they had made a few molds and just used them over and over for ships regardless of their authenticity. Just the realities of mass production or some such.

[Diamondback]

Hugh, on mobile, will give detailed reply in a few hours. If I haven't in six hours, somebody post in this thread and remind me. :)

[Hjl]

I'd be fascinated to hear more about the process. How accurate are the models?

[Diamondback]

Hugh, with the exception of 108 and 201 each sculpt is nominally modeled after a specific design. Many lines go for "generic, representational" and I've tried to keep them focused on "cut a specific accurate model of something that really existed rather than a representational, composite jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none."

Wave 1 the specific models are Chevillard's 1777 Concorde frigate, Sane's 1782 Temeraire, Williams's(?) 1773 Amazon frigate, and Slade's 1760 Bellona (though almost all of his 74's and six of his 64's were iterations on the same basic French design ripped off from Pierre Morineau--a design that was also enlarged to create Victory). Most of the back-sides on SGN101 are Charmantes (very similar, but where Concorde's stem is vertical Charmante's curves back and in near the top; contemporary Magicienne is also similar but has an out-raked bow, though not as sharp as a later clipper-bow, and a sharper rake of the stern gallery). I would suspect most late-1770s French 74s will be similar to Temeraire. Amazon also had a very similar competitor design, and was evolved from Slade's 1750s Southampton and Niger designs.

Soon as I figure out which thread is best suited--or start a new for it--let's say sometime over the weekend I'll throw up drawings at game-scale for as many as I can come up with of the designs the models are sculpted after.

[David Manley]

DB, I wouldn't worry about your reputation being tarnished as a result.of some of Ares' interpretations of the material we put to them. 99% of those in the industry and hobby won't have a clue as to the detail anyway. And the other 1% will be aware of the role if "developers" in mangling researchers' work. It happens in the real world too. I used to cry rivers over how some of my R&D was "interpreted" and implemented before I understood how "the game" was played. The circumstances that surround the hobby are one of the reasons why my approach to some of Ares' requests are a bit more laissez-faire than yours. Keeps stress levels down, if nothing else

[Nightmoss]

Soon as I figure out which thread is best suited--or start a new for it--let's say sometime over the weekend I'll throw up drawings at game-scale for as many as I can come up with of the designs the models are sculpted after.

Would be really nice to see this if/when you get the time. Thanks.

[Diamondback]

OK, here we go! All of these have been rescaled to exact 1/1000 scale, so if you save them to your HDD then print them they should almost exactly match the miniatures.

SGN101 Concorde - two drawings found, but due to undeclared scale neither ZAZ2509 nor ZAZ2510 are rescalable.

SGN102 Temeraire (America; dwg ZAZ1028)


SGN103 1773 Amazon (Cleopatra; dwg HIL0231)


SGN104 Bellona (1760 Bellona herself; dwg ZAZ1357)


SGN105 Hebe (clone Leda; dwg ZAZ4909)


SGN106 Ocean - (HMS Commerce de Marseilles; dwg ZAZ0043)


SGN107 Swan - will add drawing when I find one

SGN108 and SGN201 Generic First Rate (allegedly HMS Victory) - Oh brother! Original Victory draught is badly degraded, but between building and now (also reflected on her lighter-armed sisters Boyne and Union) it appears that the rear LD port was closed and a new forward LD opened in its place; my conjecture is that the existing model has both--I count 16 LD guns on the model, so one or the other end has to go. I will add more draughts of Victory as I find and process them, along with Boyne and the other "pass-offs" of SGN108. I'm grouping the Victory family first, then the others tossed into the blender of SGN108.
1811 Union (dwg ZAZ0246, as-built)
1762 Britannia (dwg ZAZ0086)
1786 Royal Sovereign (dwg ZAZ0001)

SGN202 Humphreys Superfrigate (President, dwg ZAZ7774)


SGN109-112 drawings will follow as located and processed. 112 is specifically based on Bahama, 111 best drawing will be captured Salvador del Mundo.
109 Artesien (dwg ZAZ1339 Prothee, as recommissioned)


110 Portland (dwg ZAZ1718)


111 Meregildos


112 Bahama/Gautier 74's


For comparison on Purisima Concepcion as SGN112, here's uncropped Greenwich scans of San Jose (Purisima Concepcion class, top, ZAZ0101 HMS San Josef as recommissioned) and Salvador del Mundo (Meregildos class, bottom, HMS Salvador del Mundo as recommissioned).


So at this point, wile I have some reservations and there'd be some details to rework for accurate pieces, I would not be unfavorably disposed to PC/SJ and an HMS SJ/HMS SdM pack being added to the SGN112 reprint pool. SdM did not get a full recommission into the line but was rather used as an armed storeship, but captures with less RN combat history have seen inclusion in SGN so I would tolerate it with a caveat noted and the Stats Committee putting together an alternate stat-set and some possible special scenario rules for her historical role.

[Bligh]

Thanks for all your effort on this DB. It certainly gives everyone more to go on.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

Excellent DB. I'll be anxious to compare the SGN111's against the SGN108's.

[Union Jack]

Excellent work putting all this together, REp gun loaded and a timely broadside, (a salute of course), heading your way.

[Diamondback]

Thanks, guys. :o Drawings of Ocean and two British threedeckers added.

Interesting to note that the PC lower deck has one more bow gun than the Meregildos, its UD comes one port-spacing farther forward (like Meregildos shoved the UD one slot aft between MD and QD) and Meregildos opens up one more QD port in the vacant slot at the end compred to PC.

Converting a Meregildos into a Concepcion: Remove aftmost QD and UD guns, add new forward LD gun, rework forward-UD/FC/catheads area to add one more UD port forward. SdM still has her open galleries, while SJ appears to have been converted to British-style enclosed, which I suspect explains the seeming different stern gallery rake.

[Diamondback]

Bumped with added drawings of Artesien and Portland.

[Bligh]

Again my thanks go to you for this diligent work that you are carrying out on our behalf DB.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

Thanks for the additions and bump notice.

[Diamondback]

So far, it's looking like we'll never get closer than 2-3 short. Greenwich's draught of Concorde has no scale noted and I can't process the drawing without it to start the "upscale-downscale" cycle; the Swan class I haven't found a draught for and Bonhomme Richard is based on a rare and expensive forensic reconstruction that I don't have access to a sufficient-quality scan of (and even if I did it's not public-domain :( ).

[Bligh]

A great pity DB.
But thank you for all that you have achieved in this respect for us.
It is all very worthwhile research which will help to make decisions about conversions more easy, even if nothing more comes out of it. At best we may get more accurate sculpts.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

The good news is I have processable drawings for Bahama and Meregildos in-hand and waiting for work to begin, and believe I either have or can get 3 out of 4 for Wave 4. It seems rather odd to me that for a class as prolific as the Swans to not have at least *one* drawing... maybe it's just a matter of not being scanned yet, or maybe I need to search under more of the class's ship names.

[Nightmoss]

For me the big question still remains in what scale they sculpted the Meregildos class? If it's closer to 1/1200 as I suspect I'm not excited about getting any reprints of HMS SJ/HMS SdM as you suggest above.

I've had the Spanish 3 decker's on the table with the 74's and it's very hard to tell them apart even at a moderately close distance. You do not have the same issue with the British or French First Rates.

[Diamondback]

Jim, while I work the drawing... if the mini measures about let's say 55-57mm on main deck (probably LD) it's probably closer to 1/1000, if around 47-48mm it's 1/1200.

EDIT: Here's the drawing for Salvador at actual-size for SGN... I'll edit it into the above too. (OOPS, forgot to rescale, gimme a minute.) RE-edit: fixed.

[Nightmoss]

Just measured Santa Ana's main deck (without removing the sails). It's 48/49mm. For comparison I also measured Royal Sovereign. It's 57mm. ironically the Langton Santa Ana is about 53mm.

I guess that pretty much answers the question, eh? Effectively we have two scales in Sails of Glory now.

[Bligh]

Guess that the Jury is back in then Jim. Small scale ships with ridiculously heavy fire power!
We await a response from Ares.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Wave 4 had something similar... I'll tell the story after the set is formally announced, but I bet David M.'s probably massaging his temples at being reminded of it just like I am.

So my eyeball impression was correct, the Spanish Firsts should be about the same OAL as their British counterparts but a bit taller and beefier-looking.

Looks like I need to fire off another note to RdM about this consistent pattern of simple things getting the "Wait-WHUT" treatment... we know they can do impressive things, but with one or two things consistently slipping through the cracks starting with the Tripe wing spacing, then the Beaufighter tail, at first here and there but now seemingly one a release...

[David Manley]

I bet David M.'s probably massaging his temples at being reminded of it just like I am..

These days I just get someone to do it for me

[Capn Duff]

Well the thats a waste of £42.

[Bligh]

I think I will just treat them as 90s.or try to ignore the size problem.
I just will not use them at public shows.
Rob.

[Coog]

I've often wondered how close to scale other ships are. Or how accurate the models are for that matter. When I was comparing dimensions of ships on paper so that I could substitute a model for another ship, particularly when I did the thread for the Americans around 1800, there did not seem that much difference when taking the small scale into account. We are talking about 1/8th of an inch or less in most cases. If the scale of the models are inconsistant and off that much to start with, it at least makes precise scales for substitutions and repaints irrelevant.

[Capn Duff]

Just done some measurements of the Pricipe de Asturias model

Length from Stern to figurehead 60mm
Length of gundeck 51mm
Width Stern. 10mm Main mast (peg). 13mm Foremast 12mm

Height of hull. stern 12mm. Mid(lifeboat) 8mm. Bow(bowsprit) 9mm

Mast height foremast 50mm. Mainmast 58mm. Mizzenmast 45mm.

All approx within a mm or 2
Taking this ship as an example I believe @1/1000 scale the gundeck should be 58 mm and width approx 16mm.
So if these are not true fisrt rates will they work, as Rob has suggested, as 80 or 90 gun options ?

[Coog]

Just done some measurements of the Pricipe de Asturias model

So if these are not true fisrt rates will they work, as Rob has suggested, as 80 or 90 gun options ?

What about overall appearance, particularly the number of gunports?

[Capn Duff]

What about overall appearance, particularly the number of gunports?

Three banks of 15 portson the hull with a further 6 on the aft of the model upper deck, but the model in comparison to a 74 same size and to a Brit French first rate, noticably smaller.

[Hjl]

This is all a bit of a shame really. I appreciate that accuracy suffers a little when using the same hull for various ships, but this seems a very odd mistake. I'm tempted to say that it was something that they were aware of and chose to ignore. I think I might skip the Spanish ships until they are put to the same scale.

[Nightmoss]

This is all a bit of a shame really. I appreciate that accuracy suffers a little when using the same hull for various ships, but this seems a very odd mistake. I'm tempted to say that it was something that they were aware of and chose to ignore. I think I might skip the Spanish ships until they are put to the same scale.

I seriously doubt Ares will ever go back and redo these sculpts. It just wouldn't be cost effective and certainly not profitable for them to do so.

I just hope they get the Santisima Trinidad scale correct? If they can manage that I imagine I can kit bash additional ship copies to the Santa Ana, etc. In the interim I'm going to look into using some of the damaged British First Rates I have on hand to kit bash a more appropriate scale Meregildos. Like Jonas has done I'll pick up some Langton Spanish stern pieces to substitute for the most obvious difference in the ships.

[Nightmoss]

Jim, while I work the drawing... if the mini measures about let's say 55-57mm on main deck (probably LD) it's probably closer to 1/1000, if around 47-48mm it's 1/1200.

EDIT: Here's the drawing for Salvador at actual-size for SGN... I'll edit it into the above too. (OOPS, forgot to rescale, gimme a minute.) RE-edit: fixed.

Thanks DB. Now I'm curious about the Spanish 74's? You have a drawing of the Temerarie above, but what about the Nepomuceno class ships? I just compared my Hero/Argonauta (Temerarie) to the San Francisco de Asis/San Juan Nepomuceno (Nepomuceno). There's quite a bit of difference in size, but that may well be correct?