Results 1 to 37 of 37

Thread: Is it time for a Two-ship Starter Set?

  1. #1
    Admiral. R.I.P.
    Admiral
    UK

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Norfolk
    Log Entries
    6,691
    Name
    David

    Default Is it time for a Two-ship Starter Set?

    Since the price of the Starter Set containing four ships continues to rise, is it time to introduce a Two-ship Starter Set containing, say, two frigates, to attract new players into the game? Perhaps the ships included could come from a famous encounter.

  2. #2
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    That may well be a way of enticing new players into the game Dave.
    I have always thought that whilst a Wings starter is probably just within the Budget of someone with money in his pocket at a show, many erstwhile enthusiasts have balked at the serious outlay required to start up in Sails. Your idea would certainly bridge the gap, even at the expense of us having to put up with yet another deferral of the next series of new releases. To you chaps with years left in you for gaming it may well be worth the trade off.
    Rob.

  3. #3
    Surveyor of the Navy
    Captain
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Log Entries
    3,143
    Name
    David

    Default

    Just thinking what is in the existing starter set that you could strip out (part from the two SOL models) to bring the size and cost down to make this viable. I guess a rulebook that covered only the basic rules would help as it would reduce the book size and also the number of chits and counters that were needed.

  4. #4

    Default

    I like the idea.

  5. #5
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Ensign Patch popped in at Dinner time to drop off a present from Cpt. Duff, and he also said it was a good idea.
    Rob.

  6. #6
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    I also like the idea, but the overhead cost of launching something like this nay be more than Ares wants to take on at this time?

    On the other hand if they had two ships projected for Wave 4 or 5 that would could fit as a 'duel' edition (like Bonhomme Richard vs. Serapis for instance) I'd jump right in.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  7. #7
    Stats Committee
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    1,987
    Blog Entries
    13
    Name
    Dobbs

    Default

    Maybe they should introduce duel sets? They could include a printout of the outcome of the historical duel.

  8. #8
    Admiral. R.I.P.
    Admiral
    UK

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Norfolk
    Log Entries
    6,691
    Name
    David

    Default

    I think that removing two 74's, their play mats and counters and reducing the size of the box might produce a price reduction of 35-40%. Since the full rules are available online I do not think that the rulebook needs to be cut down.

  9. #9
    Stats Committee
    Captain
    Sweden

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Linköping
    Log Entries
    3,943
    Blog Entries
    6
    Name
    Jonas

    Default

    They could keep the rule book as it's expensive to make a new one and they could say the set only covers the basic rules. That lets them have less counter types. The damage counters should be the same but less. I don't know what fits proportional wise, but if they made Chesapeake vs Shannon about a fourth of the counters would be well enough I'd guess.

    Keeping everything otherwise the same would mean beginners could buy this and then add a big starter and just add the new counters to the old ones without changing the balance.

  10. #10
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    As you chaps say there are many and varied ways of bringing the price of a starter set down with only a little retooling if Ares have the will to do it. I would have thought that with all the money that they already have invested in dies and press tools, it would be in their interest to keep sales alive by any means that they can.
    Rob.

  11. #11
    Comptroller of the Navy Board
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    4,298
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    I suggested it, the problem Ares had was trying to strip down the rules enough to fit into a mini-booklet. If I had a copy-paste-able PDF I'd have already started trying to strip down the Basic Rules into a Duel Pack myself... :)
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

  12. #12
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    I suggested it, the problem Ares had was trying to strip down the rules enough to fit into a mini-booklet. If I had a copy-paste-able PDF I'd have already started trying to strip down the Basic Rules into a Duel Pack myself... :)
    DB, Isn't this something you could edit using various free online .pdf editors?

    http://www.aresgames.eu/9927

    I have no experience with any of these editors, but they do look to be functional?

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/computi...t-pdf-editors/
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  13. #13
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    320
    Name
    Bob

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    That may well be a way of enticing new players into the game Dave.
    I have always thought that whilst a Wings starter is probably just within the Budget of someone with money in his pocket at a show, many erstwhile enthusiasts have balked at the serious outlay required to start up in Sails. Your idea would certainly bridge the gap, even at the expense of us having to put up with yet another deferral of the next series of new releases. To you chaps with years left in you for gaming it may well be worth the trade off.
    Rob.
    Rob,

    Why couldn't a two ship starter set use ships from a new wave as the starter set ships?
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

  14. #14
    Comptroller of the Navy Board
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    4,298
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    Jim, tried that. Ares has the file locked so I can't copy from it. :(
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

  15. #15
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    320
    Name
    Bob

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    DB, Isn't this something you could edit using various free online .pdf editors?

    http://www.aresgames.eu/9927

    I have no experience with any of these editors, but they do look to be functional?

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/computi...t-pdf-editors/
    Reprinting the rulebook is an expensive proposition, so is the restructuring of the chits needed to play. Those could be left the same and reboxed with two new ships.

    Another idea may be to produce duel sets of ships with the historical information and the link to the Ares site to get the rules. The chits could be purchased separately. This would have the added advantage of introducing new sailors to the other information offered by the company.

    What do you think?
    Bob

    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

  16. #16
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    They could, but would need to be Frigates to abrogate the cost issues, and I suspect main line protagonists such as Britain, Spain, or France to entice the beginners.
    Much as I personally like the suggestion of Bonhomme Richard vs. Serapis, they would not generate as many sales in spite of the large American membership. We who have many ships would applaud the more exotic but need to consider first and foremost the new players and their needs. Get 'em hooked and then expand their horizons.
    Rob.

  17. #17
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Jim, tried that. Ares has the file locked so I can't copy from it. :(
    Damn! I thought they considered the rules to be 'open source' as in Creative Commons licensing? I must have been thinking about Catalyst Game Labs? I know Monsters in the Sky used it.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  18. #18
    Stats Committee
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    1,987
    Blog Entries
    13
    Name
    Dobbs

    Default

    Downloading the instructions, buying a pack of chits, and whatever two ships you want works out to around $40-50.

  19. #19
    Comptroller of the Navy Board
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    4,298
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    So let's brainstorm: what can we delete to strip down the Duel Pack rules?

    - Eliminate Musketry and E-chits (keep numbers on the logs just for product compatibility).
    - Eliminate Sail Settings, assume all ships are at Battle Sail (again, print Backing and Full on cards for compatibility).
    - Eliminate Special Ammo and C/D-chits.
    - Wind is constant speed and direction, eliminating Weather rules and chits except one small Wind Vane.
    - Simplify all gun engagements to use A-chits even at B-range?
    - All firing is Center Arc only (again, include Fore/Aft arcs and stats for full game compatibility).

    Goal is to strip things down to a WGS Duel Pack size pamphlet at most, or just a single paper with "Download the Quick Start Rules and this Pack's Scenarios at [url]!" and all chits/rulers/etc. on a single board. (Then of course, offer a Completion Pack with the omitted two Mats and the rest of the Counter Set...)
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

  20. #20
    Stats Committee
    Captain
    Sweden

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Linköping
    Log Entries
    3,943
    Blog Entries
    6
    Name
    Jonas

    Default

    I think it could make things too complicated to make a new level of the rules.
    My suggestion would be to just use the simplest version that's already there.

  21. #21
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    So let's brainstorm: what can we delete to strip down the Duel Pack rules?

    - Eliminate Musketry and E-chits (keep numbers on the logs just for product compatibility).
    - Eliminate Sail Settings, assume all ships are at Battle Sail (again, print Backing and Full on cards for compatibility).
    - Eliminate Special Ammo and C/D-chits.
    - Wind is constant speed and direction, eliminating Weather rules and chits except one small Wind Vane.
    - Simplify all gun engagements to use A-chits even at B-range?
    - All firing is Center Arc only (again, include Fore/Aft arcs and stats for full game compatibility).

    Goal is to strip things down to a WGS Duel Pack size pamphlet at most, or just a single paper with "Download the Quick Start Rules and this Pack's Scenarios at [url]!" and all chits/rulers/etc. on a single board. (Then of course, offer a Completion Pack with the omitted two Mats and the rest of the Counter Set...)
    I'd follow up your suggestion with getting rid of the chits completely. Either you hit or you don't; use dice or flip a coin to make the call. The big game at Gen Con a couple years ago used this and some of your other suggestions and it worked very well. The game was fast, furious and fun.

    Two ships in a small box (including their mats, cards, etc.). A 3 fold brochure with basic instructions. A die or dice to determine hits/misses.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  22. #22
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    The only problem with this is it then becomes the embryo for an entirely different game.
    Rob.

  23. #23
    Stats Committee
    Captain
    Sweden

    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Linköping
    Log Entries
    3,943
    Blog Entries
    6
    Name
    Jonas

    Default

    Which could have been the fleet action game if that had been developed this year as was planned.

    Not that we really thought that it would be...

  24. #24
    Surveyor of the Navy
    Captain
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Gloucestershire
    Log Entries
    3,143
    Name
    David

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I think it could make things too complicated to make a new level of the rules.
    My suggestion would be to just use the simplest version that's already there.
    +1 : players of the starter set need to be able to transition seamlessly to full-blown SGN

  25. #25
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    My point exactly Dave.

    Rob.

  26. #26
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    The only problem with this is it then becomes the embryo for an entirely different game.
    Rob.
    Maybe that's the game they should have designed in the first place?

    While I'm still invested in Sails of Glory it's become more of a 'simulation' for those who are still playing and much less the 'game' I was introduced to at Gen Con several years ago. High initial cost for the big box, plus rules that can be daunting for many may be what's keeping more players from buying into this niche game.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  27. #27
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    You could be right there Jim.
    We do tend to add a lot of frills and bells and whistles in our discussions here on the Anchorage, much the same as they do on the Drome.
    I sometimes wonder if we remember what it was about the game that first drew us to it. The simplicity and ease of play.
    Is it inevitable that having grasped the basics of a game, we then go on to read about our new found love in depth. Then try to emulate the nuances of the period which we did not previously know about in more and more detail until we finally strangle the joy of the game in detailed rules?

    We then move on to the next game and do the same to that.
    Rob.

  28. #28
    Comptroller of the Navy Board
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    4,298
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    You could be right there Jim.
    We do tend to add a lot of frills and bells and whistles in our discussions here on the Anchorage, much the same as they do on the Drome.
    I sometimes wonder if we remember what it was about the game that first drew us to it. The simplicity and ease of play.
    Is it inevitable that having grasped the basics of a game, we then go on to read about our new found love in depth. Then try to emulate the nuances of the period which we did not previously know about in more and more detail until we finally strangle the joy of the game in detailed rules?

    We then move on to the next game and do the same to that.
    Rob.
    This is part of why one of my goals in developing a Campaign System was to strip the game down to just its core essentials... a slimmed-down Quick Play ruleset would be a helpful development for that project whether precursor or parallel.

    I like the "flip coin idea"--maybe A range flip one, B range two. Too far for Campaign, but for a basic to get rookies started might be good. Remember, start with basics and add a little at a time? There's a REASON you don't pop a flying virgin's cherry by strapping them into an F-22, ya know... lol
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

  29. #29
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dorset
    Log Entries
    961
    Name
    Rory

    Default

    Hi All,
    Not been around for sometime, Life!
    As I have always said, the one and only way to get more folks interested would be a rule and playing aids set. Save money by not having the model ships. There is a large number of gamer's with ships that would spend money on rules, ship logs, chips etc.
    I know of gamer's of other types wargames who buy new rules at the drop of a hat to try with their already got figures. They may buy into the model ships at a later date
    Be safe
    Rory

  30. #30
    Comptroller of the Navy Board
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    4,298
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    That's an idea... put together a RAP that has...
    --Rulebook
    --Mat Pack
    --Counter Set
    --coupon to reduce the price of buying four ships to the difference between RAP and Starter Set
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

  31. #31
    Admiral. R.I.P.
    Admiral
    UK

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Norfolk
    Log Entries
    6,691
    Name
    David

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Maybe that's the game they should have designed in the first place?

    While I'm still invested in Sails of Glory it's become more of a 'simulation' for those who are still playing and much less the 'game' I was introduced to at Gen Con several years ago. High initial cost for the big box, plus rules that can be daunting for many may be what's keeping more players from buying into this niche game.
    There is also the shortage of supply problem.

  32. #32
    Admiral of the White
    Admiral
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Log Entries
    4,568
    Name
    Jim

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    You could be right there Jim.
    We do tend to add a lot of frills and bells and whistles in our discussions here on the Anchorage, much the same as they do on the Drome.
    I sometimes wonder if we remember what it was about the game that first drew us to it. The simplicity and ease of play.
    Is it inevitable that having grasped the basics of a game, we then go on to read about our new found love in depth. Then try to emulate the nuances of the period which we did not previously know about in more and more detail until we finally strangle the joy of the game in detailed rules?

    We then move on to the next game and do the same to that.
    Rob.
    This is true of almost every game I've ever gotten into. It's not a bad thing as long as you don't, "strangle the joy of the game in detailed rules" (an excellent statement, btw, that I will file away for future use).
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  33. #33
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dorset
    Log Entries
    961
    Name
    Rory

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    That's an idea... put together a RAP that has...
    --Rulebook
    --Mat Pack
    --Counter Set
    --coupon to reduce the price of buying four ships to the difference between RAP and Starter Set
    Sorry D.B. what is a RAP? I'm going to feel an idiot for asking. I just know I will!
    Be safe
    Rory

  34. #34
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Just a guess, but could it be Rules and Product? Or in manufacturing parlance Revenue Acquisition Process.
    Rob.

  35. #35
    Comptroller of the Navy Board
    Captain
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    WA
    Log Entries
    4,298
    Name
    [RESTRICTED]

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    Sorry D.B. what is a RAP? I'm going to feel an idiot for asking. I just know I will!
    Be safe
    Rory
    Rules & Accessories Pack,amigo. :) Just like the ones for the Wings lines...
    --Diamondback
    PMH, SME, TLA, BBB
    Historical Consultant to Ares, Wings and Sails - Unless otherwise noted, all comments are strictly Personal Opinion ONLY and not to be taken as official Company Policy.

  36. #36
    Admiral of the Fleet.
    Baron
    England

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Notts
    Log Entries
    22,273
    Blog Entries
    22
    Name
    Rob

    Default

    Cheers DB.
    Rob.

  37. #37
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dorset
    Log Entries
    961
    Name
    Rory

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Rules & Accessories Pack,amigo. :) Just like the ones for the Wings lines...
    Simple when you know. Thanks D.B. I did not know they had made one for wings!
    Be safe
    Rory

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •