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Thread: USS Independence-WIP

  1. #1
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    Default USS Independence-WIP

    I expect I know what some of you will say about this build/kitbash, but I'm doing it for fun and a challenge. Some information here although I do not claim its accuracy. If she was launched in 1814 and immediately took on guns so much the better for defense of Boston harbor? Anyhow, here we go. . .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Independence_(1814)

    USS Independence Sail Plain
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    USS Independence as receiving ship in 1900s?
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    I'm starting off by cutting down HMS Victory (did anyone ever razee a First Rate?). Test photos to see how they compare with the limited views and plans I have available.

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    From these test photos I know the ship model needs to be cut down even more and I have to figure out how to get fourteen guns per side on the main deck. More to come. . .
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    (did anyone ever razee a First Rate?)
    Ofcourse I did. Did you really doubt that?

    HMS Atlas
    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...-Raz%E9e/page2

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    Ofcourse I did. Did you really doubt that?

    HMS Atlas
    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...-Raz%E9e/page2
    I know you did, Jonas.

    I actually meant in real world history?

    As for the Independence she eventually was razeed to a 54 gun frigate.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    It was an inspiration to us all Jonas.
    That was what got me started on cutting and shunting ships.
    The Nottingham was born out of that workshop of yours.
    Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    I know you did, Jonas.

    I actually meant in real world history?
    Of course you did. HMS Atlas is the ship I did the tree-decker razeeing of...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Atlas_(1782)

    (Oups... Sorry! Now I noted that you asked for first rates and Atlas was a second rate... by two guns.)

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    Very interesting project, I'm looking forward to seing more pictures of your progress!

  7. #7
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    I chopped the deck down even more, but I'm having an issue with the quarterdeck. If I cut/sand anymore I'll go completely through it. So for now it's going to stay as is.

    I also slapped a thin coat of primer on it as I want to see the imperfections (of which there are many) show up more clearly. I can see that I may want to sand down the upper gallery windows as the plan above doesn't show two levels of glass?

    Cheers.

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    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  8. #8
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    When I converted my Constitution into HEIC Nottingham I cut away the Quarterdeck and built a new one out of plasticard. I can't see if that might help you or not Jim.
    Rob.

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    I would think that this may be more along the way:

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...-Razeeing-a-74

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    I always find plasticard easier to finish than building with modelling clays. Also better suited for placing hatches, binnacles, deck guns etc, but I guess its really what you work best with in your own way.
    Rob.

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    I didn't mean it as any form of criticism against your comment, Rob.

    It was more of a thought that cutting down the top rather than removing a gundeck as I did or adding a built up quarterdeck as you did looks to be closer to what Jim is doing.

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    I did not take it as criticism Jonas.
    I know you well enough to understand that we get on O.K.
    I was just trying to say we all have different approaches to solving problems like this depending on our prior experiences.
    No offense taken at all, probably just a matter of semantics.
    Rob.

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    I'd also make the bulwark and whole deck a little more flush, maybe sand everything down to main deck level (including removing the whole current bulwark and the upper cabin windows together with the poop deck) and add a new quarter- and maybe even fore deck made of plasticards or modelling clays. As far as I can tell from the pictures, there is no visible step between main deck and quarter deck.
    Currently the curvature of the profile seems a bit too strong (the figurehead seems strangely high but I guess, you've planned some changes there anyway)

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    Thanks all for the comments and suggestions. I will take all of them into consideration. What I find curious from the actual photographs of Independence is that historically she was cut down to a 54 frigate in 1836 or so. But if you look at the photos of her later in her career she almost looks as if she was built back up while serving as the receiving ship? The top row of windows is probably where the bulwarks were, but then the lower set of windows would likely not have been on a gun deck, but perhaps deeper in the hold? If not, was she in fact a 4 deck ship? I should probably see if I can spring for the plans via US Archives.

    See more images here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/46/46903.htm

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    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  15. #15
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    Just a thought Jim.
    She seems to be riding very high in the water.
    Maybe it is the bottom row of windows which have been added in between wind and water, now that most of the ballast has been removed, to allow for extra accommodation?
    Rob.

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    Thanks Dave and Rob for the link and suggestion. Going to try and do some more research. Now I've found information suggesting the Independence was sister ships with USS Franklin and USS Washington?
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    Thanks again Dave. Further searching on the Game Labs forums turned up some plans of the Independence as the 54 gun frigate.

    http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php...14-with-plans/
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  19. #19
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    Thanks again to Dave i found this thread on the Game Labs forum covering US ships and plans. Many are from Howard Chapelle's book, "History of the American Sailing Navy". I will spend more time looking at this information, but now I need to get ready for the Trick or Treeter's that will be here soon. Happy Halloween.

    http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php...on-with-plans/
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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  20. #20
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    A few more shots of progress on the Independence. Rather than sanding down the main deck any further I decided to remove the lower section of the main deck (sanding up I suppose you could say). I also sanded down the upper portion of the hull supports that the main deck rests on. I didn't measure exactly, but I'd guess it lowered the deck another 1/16 of an inch (1.58 mm). Added a new aft area using polystyrene card as well as adding some guns. It's not going to be an exact match for total guns as this model is probably about five scale feet shorter than the Independence was. Also added hammock racks, but I can see they'll need further sanding. I can see from these latest photos that I have to reduce the bow too, but a big improvement in that area was the removal of the original catheads and replacement with something more in scale. More to come. . .

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    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  21. #21
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    The cut and shunt part seems to have worked well Jim.
    I think you are very skilled at these operations.
    Rob.

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    The new aft part of the deck fits very smoothly in, nice work!

  23. #23
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    I just finished a first pass on some paint application so I thought I'd post a couple of photos. Seeing them on screen really helps in pointing out where corrections and further work is required. Cheers!

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    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  24. #24
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    Smart as paint Jim.
    Sorry just could not help that.
    Rob.

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    Looks very nice.
    In fact, just by adding the paint you helped to make the ship look a lot more flush and less bulky than in the last pictures, interesting how just a simple coat of paint can have such an effect!

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    Jim, the Independence design was nominally a 74 even though she carried 90 guns. I'd say her stats should probably be comparable to a British Second Rate: 11 Boxes, 6 Burden, Gunnery track of a compressed British First Rate, Veer uncertain.

    Per typo-ridden ThreeDecks her 1817 (first known) armament was:
    Gun Deck 48 American 32-Pounder
    Lower Gun Deck 30 American 32-Pounder
    Upper Gun Deck 33 American 32-Pound Columbiad
    Quarterdeck 16 American 32-Pounder Carronade
    Forecastle 8 American 32-Pounder Carronade
    This is CLEARLY not right since all evidence shows design and initial construction as a thoroughly conventional in layout if very large and heavily armed two-decker-plus-spardeck 74. Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, the official USN history, only describes her as carrying 90 32's of various types. Silverstone in The Sailing Navy 1775-1854 describes her as 63x32# gun plus 24x32#crde--I think we can safely assume the odd gun was a chaser and not for broadsides. My count on the only portrait I've found pre-cutdown, of sister Washington, has 16 ports each side LD (32), 17 UD (34->68). Sorry, you're on your own as far as QD/FC port counts if you can find a good period painting or drawing, but it is quite clear that for game timeframe she should only have two full gun-decks and at most a spar-deck like Constitution topside. 115' to top of mainmast, which sounds like First Rate territory--maybe use Victory's base stats and deck with one less box and one more Veer.

    Nice build, nice paint, I'm just trying to help make her playable--and help refine things for anyone who follows in your footsteps, though I'm starting to think maybe I should ask YOU about interest in a Dockyard contract to refit and accurize my First Rates.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 11-14-2016 at 19:51.

  27. #27
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    Hey DB,
    Thanks very much for this post. Beyond the kitbash itself I have no clue on how to bring the ship to the gaming table. This will help a great deal.

    From what little I've read the Independence was not the best of our 74's. Due to the weight of all those 32 pounders the leeward guns couldn't even have their ports open while sailing?

    I found this image on a Naval Action thread concerning US ships. I'm assuming it's from the US National Archives, but am not sure about that. I have to run errands atm, but I'll be back later to ask you some additional questions.

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  28. #28
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    I would be cautious about adding veer to Victory stats. She already has 10 in veer + burden which is the most any ship in the entire game has with unrated and French first rates at 9.

  29. #29
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    With the exception of some touch up painting I can now see is needed from looking at these photos, and the possibility of adding some additional pennants, the USS Independence is done. She turned out much better than I thought she would after a rough start. I'll have to create a ship card, base card and ship log once I have a better handle on stats that would be appropriate for the earliest time she could operate within the SoG time period? Cheers.

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    Last edited by Nightmoss; 11-16-2016 at 09:44. Reason: typo
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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    Jim, best chance is late 1814 - early 1815 Boston Harbor. Sortied with Constitution but nobody wanted to come and play...

  31. #31
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    That is a great looking ship!

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    That is so beautifully done Jim.
    I will rep you again when I get chance to.
    Rob.

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    What a lovely ship (and another unique sight on the gaming table).
    Reputation cannon fired!

  34. #34
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    Thank you for the positive comments and rep. It's very much appreciated.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Jim, best chance is late 1814 - early 1815 Boston Harbor. Sortied with Constitution but nobody wanted to come and play...
    It might be kind of fun to write up a Boston Harbor scenario, even as unlikely as it was to occur in that time frame. I know from the little reading I've done that citizens in Massachusetts and Boston were very worried about a full scale attack by the British. I'll have to see what I can find on Fort Strong and other harbor forts. . .
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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    Rep gun working again.
    rob.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Rep gun working again.
    rob.
    Thank you, Rob.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

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    Excellent conversion! She really looks fantastic. If you were to do another one would you go with the Victory again or another 1st rate?

    She would have one hell of a broadside with all 32 pounders, however I read that they eventually exchanged the upper deck 32s for 24s or 18s (I think it was 24s but not sure, looking for the quote) which brought her lower ports clearer of the waterline.

    Maybe one could have two cards, with all 32's and the lower ports would have to remain closed in rougher seas, and then a card with slightly less broadside damage, but in which she can operate normally?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Wolves View Post
    Excellent conversion! She really looks fantastic. If you were to do another one would you go with the Victory again or another 1st rate?

    She would have one hell of a broadside with all 32 pounders, however I read that they eventually exchanged the upper deck 32s for 24s or 18s (I think it was 24s but not sure, looking for the quote) which brought her lower ports clearer of the waterline.

    Maybe one could have two cards, with all 32's and the lower ports would have to remain closed in rougher seas, and then a card with slightly less broadside damage, but in which she can operate normally?
    I haven't gotten back to working on the ship stats. With DB's and your thoughts I should have a good place to start.

    If I do another ship conversion I'd be tempted to do the USS Ohio, but that's way out of the Ares acceptable time frame. From what I've read she was the best of our "74's". Failing that it might make more sense to do the USS Franklin. Again from what I've read she was a marked improvement on the Independence and in that case I would use another Victory as the closest scale match for length and beam. Currently I have more of the damaged French first rates, but their scale length is approximately 23 feet longer than the Franklin or the Independence. Beam is only off by one foot, but having to chop the Orient down to 190 scale feet might be problematic.

    I go in for cataract screening this week so modeling is kind of on hold until I find out where that's all going.

    Thanks for the feedback and ideas.
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  40. #40
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    I think you are right about the Orient. It does not look an easy cut. Choosing the right point is not something I would like to do Jim.
    Sorry to hear about the Cataract screening. I hope that they find things are O.K. My Brother in Law just had an op for this and he can now drive his car again.
    Rob.

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    Actually, perhaps the 24# version should get an UPgrade... lighter balls, but faster flying and more of 'em--David M. mentioned in another thread a discussion with Constitution's curators where they found 24pdr's the more effective penetrators while 32's would either bounce off the live-oak hull timbers or at worst embed themselves and encrust without really penetrating.
    --Diamondback
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    Great work! I have not been gaming in a while or to this site. Is there an article about how to disassemble these ships? I remember there was one on the planes.

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    No article as such, but several pictures on ships being reduced to component parts occur in some of the remodeling threads here in the Chippy Shop. Mainly Jim, Jonas, and Julián. For a good idea of what they look like see post one on this thread.
    Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaRoyal20 View Post
    Great work! I have not been gaming in a while or to this site. Is there an article about how to disassemble these ships? I remember there was one on the planes.
    Hi Lance. As I and others have discovered the various ships do go together differently so disassembly may vary for each class. At least for HMS Queen Charlotte and the Orient class I found soaking in 91% isopropyl alcohol for several days up to a couple of weeks will break down the glue and the paint so you can more easily pull the ships apart and strip off the paint. The masts are a different story. Long term soaking in alcohol doesn't seem to do much to loosen that glue and I usually end up cutting and redoing them with sewing pins. A product called Green Stuff might work on the masts but I've never tried it.

    If you go to this thread you'll see photos of the First Rate that eventually became the USS Independence.

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ight=workbench
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  45. #45
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    Thanks for stepping in Jim.
    Your knowledge is much better than mine as I have only disassembled two ships.
    Rob.

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