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Thread: Abukir - Battle of the Nile scenario for Cons

  1. #51
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    Jonas is there any chance of us cajoling you to come over and join us for the Doncaster Lend lease event.
    I would love to meet you in person.
    Rob.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Union Jack View Post
    Will you also include a slightly bigger gap between 2 of the french ships to allow at least one of the British to sail between as did in the battle. (If I recall correctly). Not too big but say a base and a half width?

    As to crews:

    A more pressing problem for Brueys was a lack of food and water for the fleet: Bonaparte had unloaded almost all of the provisions carried aboard and no supplies were reaching the ships from the shore. To remedy this, Brueys sent foraging parties of 25 men from each ship along the coast to requisition food, dig wells, and collect water. Constant attacks by Bedouin partisans, however, required escorts of heavily armed guards for each party. Hence, up to a third of the fleet's sailors were away from their ships at any one time....
    I could do that Neil, but what ship will enter the gap before the French line around is gunned down that far, that a RN ship can enter it without being racked from the bow one or two times?




    The lack of crews is a point...

    The French SoL started the whole campaing with only 85 % of crews and the had some men on the shores.

    So I reduced the crew and the first crew box is blocked.

    Maybe the historical situation allows to block two boxes of each ship, or I raise the reload time for French ships. (fire / reload / reload instead of fire / reload)

    Difficult.
    Last edited by Comte de Brueys; 10-26-2016 at 12:59. Reason: bad spelling

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Jonas is there any chance of us cajoling you to come over and join us for the Doncaster Lend lease event.
    I would love to meet you in person.
    Rob.
    This would be really cool!

  4. #54
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    Historically the ship that cuts the line is Leander, and I have a cunning plan for that move Mr B.

    Baldrick.

  5. #55
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    I made it a little too small, but the round thing above my right line is Nelson Island. It's the small island that had a fort between which and the French line HMS Goliath sailed. If you look at the orientation of the island and your battlemaps you will find that the Island have rotated 45 degrees on google earth. The French line was more or less North-West to South-East.

    About me going to Doncaster, it would be fun, but I know nothing about when and where. With the new wave coming out I might not have the money for it.
    Last edited by TexaS; 10-26-2016 at 16:53.

  6. #56
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    Very quick bad drawing of the orientation of the battle:

    Name:  Abukir bay.jpg
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    Yellow is wind.
    Red is British
    Blue (if you can see it) is French.
    Last edited by TexaS; 10-26-2016 at 16:32.

  7. #57
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    I think the French line should be tilted perhaps some degrees counter clockwise more than that quick drawing from memory, but you should be able to align it better to your maps you no doubt have.

    Here you have a picture with north marked.
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    It wasn't 90 degrees but perhaps 45...
    Last edited by TexaS; 10-26-2016 at 16:33.

  8. #58
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    Name:  plan-of-the-battle-of-the-nile-aboukir-1798.-french-invasion-of-egypt-1818-map-272335-p.jpg
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    From this picture and from written sources several British ships raked the French line. I can't remember which ones but some French ship changed angle to rake a British ship and was in turn raked by another. There were a lot of raking going on...

    This picture also have the wind marked on the compass rose.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post

    About me going to Doncaster, it would be fun, but I know nothing about when and where. With the new wave coming out I might not have the money for it.
    Dear Jonas Doncaster is not until next September.
    You can get details here.

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...Doncaster-2017

    We are hosting the Lend Lease winner who will be a prominent member from the USA this time.

    Rob.

  10. #60

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    Of course I need to make concessions to the position and orientation of the French line. That's not fixed at the moment. A straight line can't be the solution.

    For raking, I know that the HMS Leander make it in a perfect postion, because she used the darkness to sneak into the battle line and get in a formidable position. HMS Alexander was able to get behing the Orient.

    Maybe there should be a gap like Neil wrote?

    (Did any other RN ship break throug the French line? )

    I can imagine a bow raking of the Guerrier, too.

    If you look a picture number 2, I think it's not possible to get a SoG ship with our rules in a position like the HMS Theseus.

    But in general, the British ships try to anchor in a good shooting position to fight the first French SoLs together. This anchor maneuver was in some cases succesful and in some cases not.

    This battle was decided by concentrated crossfire and the immobile French line. Only HMS Bellerophon payed the bill for getting early into crossfire of the Orient and I think the Franklin.


    That's what I have...
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by Comte de Brueys; 10-27-2016 at 01:24.

  11. #61

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    That's the difficulty to press this battle on two gaming mats, giving enough place for maneuvers, grant the players fun and solve the mission in 2 hours.

    In my opinion the key element for a succesful and interesting mission is the "cooperation". And some questions the players have to care for regarding the mission goals:

    Will the other Captains obey the orders from Nelson and Foley?
    How do they navigate? - a single collision can be desastrous.
    How many ships to send in between the coast and the French line? 3 or 4
    How should be Nelsons approach? Slow or fats? Fighting the first French SoLs together with Foley or rush to the Orient , avoid fire from Conquerant, Aquilon, Franklin, Peuple Souverain... and try to fight the 1st rate down?
    Is it possible to use historic elements and anchor beside the enemy and decimate him ship by ship?
    Can be the reduced French crews the key to victory?


    Many questions...

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Dear Jonas Doncaster is not until next September.
    You can get details here.

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...Doncaster-2017

    We are hosting the Lend Lease winner who will be a prominent member from the USA this time.

    Rob.
    Then I may very well be able to make it. That would be great fun!

  13. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    Then I may very well be able to make it. That would be great fun!
    Nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    I think the French line should be tilted perhaps some degrees counter clockwise more than that quick drawing from memory, but you should be able to align it better to your maps you no doubt have...
    I'll consider this for the formation of the French line.

    Thank you for your maps.

  14. #64
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    Sven, I think you have it all well in hand, and looking at your second picture you have a good view of where north should be and where the wind was coming from.

    The thing about raking is you should make some possibility for it but you can never fully recreate historical movements.

    I've seen tries to make rules for spring anchors, maybe even here on the anchorage, but in your time frame you can't get bogged down with details for special rules that will take a lot of time to explain.

    You should focus on a quick fun game and before my comments I think you were on the right way.

  15. #65

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    It's important to exchange points of view and historical facts & aspects.

    So every input is most welcome like Rob (blocked gunports), DB (which minatures), Neil (crews) you (terrain, wind and French line),...

    Already fired the rep gun, but can't shoot at Neil & youi at the moment because I have to spread rep around first.


    Not being a native speaker it's sometimes hard to express in the adequate way in a debate here.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comte de Brueys View Post
    That's the difficulty to press this battle on two gaming mats, giving enough place for maneuvers, grant the players fun and solve the mission in 2 hours.

    In my opinion the key element for a succesful and interesting mission is the "cooperation". And some questions the players have to care for regarding the mission goals:

    Will the other Captains obey the orders from Nelson and Foley?
    How do they navigate? - a single collision can be desastrous.
    How many ships to send in between the coast and the French line? 3 or 4
    How should be Nelsons approach? Slow or fats? Fighting the first French SoLs together with Foley or rush to the Orient , avoid fire from Conquerant, Aquilon, Franklin, Peuple Souverain... and try to fight the 1st rate down?
    Is it possible to use historic elements and anchor beside the enemy and decimate him ship by ship?
    Can be the reduced French crews the key to victory?


    Many questions...
    You can be sure that we British Captains are already studying our charts, and discussing what to do dear Compte.

    To that end I have found during my research this morning two things which may help or hinder your own research, and bring to light the truth about ships not obeying orders re the Culloden's grounding.
    I quote here from a book containing the actual dispatches sent by Nelson. In it this statement is made.

    "Foley, in the leading British ship, the Goliath, had a copy of Bellin's Petit Atlas Maritime of 1764, complete with measured depths; that Hood had a less accurate map of English origin; and that Benjamin Hallowell of the Swiftsure had recently captured a rough French sketch of the bay together with rudimentary sailing directions."

    It would therefore appear that Troubridge had strayed out of the known safe channel.

    The second is a set of three French Maps of the action which I will photograph for you and post here. If they are not clear enough, I can photocopy and send them on by post if you think they will add anything to your knowledge.
    Rob.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    Then I may very well be able to make it. That would be great fun!
    It will be a pleasure to host you too if you can make the trip.
    Rob.

  18. #68
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    Here are the French maps Sven.

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    It was mentioned in the text that the French Fleet is actually in a different order from that given by Nelson in his dispatches.
    Also the approach of the British Fleet initial formation may be of interest.
    Rob.

  19. #69

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    Great stuff Rob.

    Thank you.

    The literature about Napleonic war at seas is very limited in German language.

  20. #70
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    I will look out what else I can find then Sven.
    Would you like me to post on those maps or are they clear enough?
    Rob.

  21. #71
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    Thank you also for the Rep. I just saw it in my Notifications section.
    Rob.

  22. #72

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    You're welcome. The Maps are Detailed enough.



    What Book those Maps are from?

  23. #73

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    I kit bashed two Orient's 'on fire' and would be happy to donate one to the event next year if there's any interest? Here's the link to the old thread with some photos, etc. Just let me know.

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ht=orient+fire
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  24. #74
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    Hi Sven.
    The book is called "In the hour of victory." The Royal Navy at war in the age of Nelson.by Sam Willis ISBN. number 9780857895707. RRP £25 Amazon have it for £14.95.

    You can see my review of it here:- http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...our-of-Victory

    Rob.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    I kit bashed two Orient's 'on fire' and would be happy to donate one to the event next year if there's any interest? Here's the link to the old thread with some photos, etc. Just let me know.

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ht=orient+fire
    Jim PM sent.
    Rob.

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    The last picture I posted is also French. "Combat naval d'Aboukir".

  27. #77
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    It is certainly interesting to cross reference our French maps with the English ones Jonas.
    Rob.

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    I was just thinking it's too bad the ground-scale has to be so exaggerated... it looks a lot more difficult for Foley to "thread the needle" than it was IRL.

    If you ever see Walram around, you might find picking his brain worth the effort--my sculpt notes are built on a spreadsheet he asked me to check out for him while he was planning his own version.

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    Foley's problem were in part speed to get out of the guns from the fort on what would later be known as Nelson island and keeping away from the shallow water that the French frigate tried to lure the British onto.

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    Here's Jonas's interim Ship Log for the Tonnants we've cleared for playtest, if it helps.

    http://sailsofglory.org/attachment.p...8&d=1427539966

  31. #81

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    Link is not valid, DB.

    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    Foley's problem were in part speed to get out of the guns from the fort on what would later be known as Nelson island and keeping away from the shallow water that the French frigate tried to lure the British onto.
    My book(s) gave me the informatiom that Foley decimated the small battery with a nice broadside while passing.

    I think he thought there were more and heavier guns (like Boney told Bruey to do).

    I think I could display that with the small fort.

  32. #82
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    When we do it at Doncaster the space need not be limited to two mats.
    My sea mat is two mats wide by two and a half mats long.
    Quite a few members have also several mats between them.
    Rob.

  33. #83
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    Here you go Sven. This is what you should be seeing.

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    Rob.

  34. #84

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    Thank you, Rob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    When we do it at Doncaster the space need not be limited to two mats.
    ...
    Rob.
    A third map would be nice (not necessary), to setup the RN ships.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    I kit bashed two Orient's 'on fire' and would be happy to donate one to the event next year if there's any interest? Here's the link to the old thread with some photos, etc. Just let me know.

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...ht=orient+fire
    Oh wow, that is particularly magnificent!

  36. #86

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    As you all prepare for the battle you might find this link interesting? I had no idea that the 15 ton rudder, which was blown off the ship some 300 meteres, is now in France?

    http://www.franckgoddio.org/projects...tes-fleet.html
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
    –English Proverb

  37. #87
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    A very interesting article Jim.
    I hope that more will be forthcoming from the expedition.
    I did know that the Lightening conductor from Orient was in the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich, but nothing of the existence of the rudder.
    Rob.

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    Soo... How do we account for the exceptionally slow reloading of the Orient?

    Two 36 pound cannons. This cannon was the largest on bord the Orient and required 15 men to operate. Preparations for each shot took 8 minutes. The massive iron cannons were termed according to the weight of the cannonballs they could handle, not the weig


    (Seventh photo on that page)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Here you go Sven. This is what you should be seeing.

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    Rob.
    Apologies, Sven, and thanks, Rob. :)

  40. #90
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    You are more than welcome DB.
    Rob.

  41. #91
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    Love it Sven I think gaming wise it's spot on. Been thinking of the running aground. How about using the width of a ruler? Any ship sailing within a width of any land takes hull damage or runs aground on a special damage or anything along those lines. Makes sailing round that tip even more of a challenge.

    Neil (Can I be the French...hint...hint...pretty please?)

  42. #92
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    That's the last time I share Nelson's plans with you Union Jack.
    Bligh.

  43. #93
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    However you may be interested in this:-

    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...5479#post65479

    Rob.

  44. #94
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    Just found this interesting bit of info in my Osprey book on the Nile.

    "When Nelson's squadron rounded the shoals north east of Aboukir Island several hundred French seamen were ashore- indeed no less than 4 miles from the coast gathering fresh water, which meant that the already under strength French crews were depleted still further.

    To compensate for the large body of sailors operating ashore, Brueys ordered some of the Frigates to dispatch their ablest gun crews to the ships of the line. They were distributed amongst the crews of L'Orient, Tonnant, and Franklin. His vessels astern of him now stood at about full strength whilst the rest of his ships stood about 200 men short of their complements. His decision to fight a static battle was probably sound, for his understrength crews could then concentrate on gunnery without having to concern themselves with seamanship."

    Rob.

  45. #95
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    I don't know if anyone have any interest in these, but I've made them for myself and put them up here.

    It's the ship cards for the British ships of the line that we don't have from Ares. I will make the French and the frigates too but it will be a while until I need them myself. I'm working on finishing the British ship of the line first. I have less finished SGN104 than SGN102.

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    Last edited by TexaS; 04-09-2017 at 06:15.

  46. #96
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    I'm pretty sure that a lot of us will be glad of those cards Jonas.
    I know that I will use anything I can get to save hours of producing them myself.
    Thanks for the kind offer. We have until September to complete this set. That is a very good start thanks.

    Rob.

  47. #97
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    I just noted that the British flag is anachronistic. During the Battle of the Nile they flew the old one without the red in the X.

    On the other hand, Ares do use the French late revolutionary flag even on the elder with the white ensign.

    And thank you for the reputation, Rob.

  48. #98
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    I had to come to terms with that one a while ago Jonas, when I als realized that from the Plain white of France to the true tricolour there are five variants possible.
    Also British ships in addition to the pre Union could also fly the Red white or blue ensign according as to which fleet they were assigned and the colour of the Senior Admiral of that particular Fleet.I decided to cut my losses at that point and go with the flow.
    Rob.

  49. #99
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    Yes. I have red and blue ensigns and pre and post 1803 and the Union Jack for the fore. I can switch them out but white post 1803 is probably the most usable and therefore the one I use most.

    My Indefatigable is pre though. I guess I tend to think of an engagement and flag them for that.

    Will probably flag these British in pre 1803 and white ensign.

  50. #100
    Admiral of the Blue.
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    England

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    Rob

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    It is an interesting area indeed Jonas.
    Do you know when the Admiral of the White colour became the National colour for the Royal navy, and the Red became the Mercantile Marine with the blue for the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve?
    Rob.

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