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Thread: New official scenarios on Ares site

  1. #1

    Default New official scenarios on Ares site

    Anyone notice this new offering from Ares? Good to get some attention again

    "Two historical scenarios to be played using the ships HMS Victory and USS Constitution, featured in the Sails of Glory Special Packs."

    http://www.aresgames.eu/16974

    Edit: includes a carronade optional rule. Very interesting take on it...

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    Yes, but they forgot to include a referenced picture.

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    Noticed this one yesterday, but not downloaded yet.

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    Thanks for the heads up Fred.
    it is not an area I visit very often.
    I will take a gander at it.
    Rob.

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    Finally we got official carronade rules! As soon as I can find the time and get my friends together, I'll be happy to try them out.

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    I was just thinking the same thing.
    Rob.

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    Just played it. HMS Guerriere immediately turns starboard, as does Constitution to port. Just enough room to miss each other. Guerriere Veer ratings means Guerriere wins the maneuver. Constitution fires broadside. Guerriere takes damage. Guerriere holds fire and orders hard about to port, raking the Constitution from the rear. Constitution has no choice but to jibe downwind if it still wants to engage Guerriere. It is Guerriere's to lose at that point. Stall into the wind and wait for Constitution to circle back, or immediately turn to starboard after raking Constitution so that they broadside each other to death. Guerriere wins two broadsides to one.

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    Thanks for the report on your encounter.
    Did you employ the Carronade rules Ken?
    Rob.

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    I guess if we get ships armed primarily with carronades, there would have to be a notation on the cards that they have no long range fire. One or two long guns for chasers probably would not be significant enough for any firepower factor. Around 1800 and later, a ship like the Swan class would probably have 18-pounder carronades instead of 6 pounder long guns giving it higher firepower factors but only at close range. However there would still be a problem with a ship like USS Essex in 1812. Although it was primarily carronade armed it did have 6 12-pounder long guns. I guess there could be a special notation for it giving it a 1 factor at long range.
    Last edited by Coog; 07-01-2016 at 12:14.

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    Still doesn't give anything to help with HMS Egmont and similar all-carronade Rateds, either. I would have expected "Bonus Short/Penalty Long" rather than this "just split it and long gets cut in half" easy-way-out. Especially since it over-weights the secondary/tertiary batteries and under-weights the main.

    Maybe for Carronade Equipped SOL's change to 1/3 rounded up. I should note that I can't speak for everyone but nobody consulted me about this, this rule was a complete Pearl Harbor.

    EDIT: 1/3 is still overpowering Carronades on three-deckers, so maybe just a simple "1/(x+1) where X=number of full gun decks, round up" formula. Anyone willing to playtest this? I'll start a new thread with "Carronade Variant Stats" under these rules...
    Last edited by Diamondback; 07-01-2016 at 13:03.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Still doesn't give anything to help with HMS Egmont and similar all-carronade Rateds, either. I would have expected "Bonus Short/Penalty Long" rather than this "just split it and long gets cut in half" easy-way-out.
    Well, it does give a bonus to short-range, but the bonus is spread out across multiple turns by not requiring reloading. I was surprised they did it that way though...

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    Good point, Fred--it still works better than the Double Short/No Long concept I'd pitched.

    For anyone interested, my proposed tweak is in its own thread at http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...Rules-proposal

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    Quite frankly I would rather use my favourite double shotted, than use the Carronades rule. That leaves my long range capability undepleted.
    I think that DB's idea is far better if long range has to be reduced, let's see some real monies worth when your Carronades smash into the Stern gallery of an enemy ship.
    Rob.

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    As a bonus, it also gives an appreciable difference between superfrigates and multi-deck true SOL's: for example, Constitution and the Slade 74's both start with a Main broadside of 6 and split it 3/3 under Ares rules, while my proposal changes it to 2 C/4 G on the SOL emphasizing its long-range guns while Constitution retains 3/3 for the carronade power of the spar-deck; the all carronade variants 1782 Egmont and 1808 Castor become 6/0 and 4/0 respectively, no Long attack but if you get into Short they can just keep hammering you with full values every turn like a Continuous Fire but with full stats.

    Similarly, it differentiates between a Temeraire and a baseline SGN106 or SGN108 three-decker by making their common 7 starting Main split as 3/4 and 2/5 respectively, rather than the 4/3 they all share presently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    Thanks for the report on your encounter.
    Did you employ the Carronade rules Ken?
    Rob.
    Sorry for the late response. Yes, Constitution hit first with both guns and carronades. At long range, Constitution only has a firepower of 3, the other 3 belong to carronades! At long range, Amelia only has a firepower of 2, and those drop to nothing with more damage. It forces you to get as close as possible. Amelia's great strength is that she is much faster and more yar than Constitution. If she keeps her distance and keeps firing, eventually, the Constitution must give up the chase. So carronades are a mixed blessing. On slow ships, all it does is halve your firepower because you aren't going to be able to close with the enemy. On fast ships, you don't need carronades. You use your speed and maneuverability to advantage instead. I'm playing it again today both with and without carronades and see how it turns out. I think that they would be more useful in fleet actions where you have multiple targets.

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    Thanks for that informed reply Ken. I look forward to hearing how your trials with and without Carronades progresses.
    The actual Navies of the time must have rated them, or they would not have progressively added more to each deck. it will be interesting to see if our home grown rules live up to reality.
    Rob.

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    The other thing would be to split Fore and Aft arcs to fire and load independently, with Main requiring both be loaded to use. Slightly more complicated, but I think worth it... another one for Playtest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The other thing would be to split Fore and Aft arcs to fire and load independently, with Main requiring both be loaded to use. Slightly more complicated, but I think worth it... another one for Playtest.
    That's an interesting thing to try out. With more ships, that could be a deciding factor, but one on one, all carronades do is force you to fight at close quarters because you lose half your firepower at long range...more than that if you use the "early" Constitution with a firepower of 5. Rounding up means that Constitution has a long range firepower of 2! That's a poor tradeoff in my log. I was interested to find out that when the Constitution first set sail, it actually had carronades placed on it's mast tops! They were small 6 pounders and would probably be great at clearing an enemy deck before boarding. The marines were already up there anyway, so it makes sense. I don't know if they were ever used in combat, though.

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    Maybe a "round down" or "round to nearest" alternate might be worth testing as well.

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    Another interesting thing about this scenario is that it starts with an immediate crash avoidance maneuver. In modern times, if two sailing ships are heading directly towards each other, the ship on the starboard tack (wind blowing from the right side of the ship) has the right of way and maintains course. The ship on the port tack must give way. In this scenario, Constitution should give way. Playing chicken with sailing ships is not a winning strategy. Imagine crashing into each other head on at about 7 knots each. You would both go straight to the bottom. Whether or not that age old international rule of sailing applied to belligerents, who knows? But someone's got to give way.

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    How much does "maritime law" apply to a shooting war where the entire goal is "if he won't strike sink the other guy by ram if need be," though?

    Personally, I'd be tempted to flip a shallow turn one way then hard the other trying for a center-broadside rake... question is would I rather direct it into hull or rigging? May not be realistic, but in Sid Meier's Pirates my favorite trick was a drive-by chainshotting then hit with more raking chains from range, then rake with grape until the decks were as much a slaughterhouse as Bucentaure after Nelson's 68# double-shotted-carronade opening salvo.

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    What we need is some mathematical Guru to give us a statistical breakdown of the variables for each ships hitting power at long range/short range, firstly without Carronades and then using them over the course of a whole battle. This must also include the probability of mixed munitions bring employed,and the style of fighting of the player/ captain. We may then get close to finding out if they are an asset or a hindrance to a victory for any particular combination of ships.


    Failing that just keep up the good work Fred and DB to get us a reasonable rule fit to reality, and I will be happy with whatever you decide.
    Rob.

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    Without the carronade rule, Guerriere doesn't stand much of a chance unless it gets a lopsided result after an exchange of broadsides. After that, Guerriere easily out turns Constitution for an eventual raking shot, then speeds away. This is especially true if Constitution turns windward to avoid collision. The first broadside was brutal without the rule. 14 damage to Guerriere, nine to Constitution. A raking shot on Constitution two moves later added enough oomph to Guerriere's guns to reduce Constitutions broadside to half. After that scenario, I used the carronade rule again and it actually let both the Constitution and the Guerriere get an extra 2 chits damage each while they were reloading. The Constitution used chain shot in an effort to damage the Guerriere's sails and thus slow her down, but the shot only added 1 damage to crew. After that, it took a while, but Constitution reduced Guerriere to a hulk. So, I was able to win with either ship with or without the carronade rule. But single ship actions are a lot different than multiple ship actions, which is my next test for the carronades. If I'm remembering correctly, the British had a couple of ships that had only carronades at the first battle of Copenhagen. Blocking the harbor by chaining ships with long guns to those, would add immense firepower. A fourth rate carronade ship could throw as much weight as a first rater, I think. I'll have to hit the books and see how they were used in that battle. If the throw weight and rate of fire increases that much for a carronade, you should get more damage chits when using them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    How much does "maritime law" apply to a shooting war where the entire goal is "if he won't strike sink the other guy by ram if need be," though?
    Ramming is completely out of the question. Two ships under full sail at speed hitting each other is suicide. You would not only stove both bows in, the masts on both ships with their topsails full of wind, would snap like toothpicks. Then, you would be dead in the water and sinking, your gun crews would most likely be dead when the cannon broke their rigging and started rolling down the gun deck towards the bow. If, two minutes before impact, you had a complete, fully operational and manned frigate, and you pulled a stunt like that, you had better hope you go down with your ship, because the admiralty frowns on that kind of waste of material.

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    On carronades, I can give you two examples...

    In 1782 HMS Egmont, a one-off Bellona-variant 74, was fitted with an all-carronade load. The base all-gun broadside throw of a Slade Common 74 is 781#, while Egmont could throw 1684# (28x68#, 28x42#, 12x24#--the 68's were a short-lived fad last used on Victory at Trafalgar IIRC due to the difficulty of man-handling heavy cannonballs in a timely manner, also the downfall of the 42# long gun). Comparatively, a mixed-load 74 could range from 888# (1806-fit HMS Goliath, 60x24# gun plus 14x24# crde; "homogeneous battery" being another seldom-repeated experiment) to 965# (1805-fit HMS Resolution, with standard Common 74 32#/18# load on the gun decks and two long nines backed up by 16x32# crde).

    On 32's, the baseline 1773 Amazon was 174# (26x12#, 6x6#). From 1808 HMS Castor only kept one pair each of sixes and twelves as chasers, replacing the rest with 28x32#crde for a throw of 466#. I also saw a load attributed to the last 1773 Amazons in service, though this may have been confused for same-classname/different-design 20-years-later, that replaced the 12's with 18's and added 6x18# crde on top of the 6# guns, total throw 306#. Take that last one with a grain; I now think the 1794 class and '73 class were confused for one another. Per BWAS 1714-1792, the usual load for a late 1773 Amazon (1778-on hulls as-built, older as rearmed) was 26x12#, 6x6#, 6x18# crde for a total throw of 228#.

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    From what you gentlemen are saying, it seems as if Carronades added more punch at close range than the new rules are giving us then.
    Rob.

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    So it was a significant advantage, if you could get close enough, or had ships with long guns nearby.

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    I intend to give it a go in my next action Ken, as I favour the close up and antagonistic approach myself.
    Rob.

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    AAR for Constitution/Guerriere scenario, advanced rules...

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    Movement: Captain Hull of the Constitution gets to peek at Guerriere's first movement card. Higher burden (Constitution) moves first.

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    Action: Planned crew action, Constitution musketry fires, 3 chits. Guerriere takes three crew damage!

    Combat: Constitution broadside: 6 chits = 8 damage, 3 crew 1 zero, plays good aim card, draws 4 damage!
    Guerriere broadside: 7 damage, rudder damage, 2 crew damage, uses good aim card to draw 4 damage. Constitution reduced to veer 4.

    Name:  Congue 11.jpg
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    Movement: both veer hard to starboard but Guerriere is able to rake Constitution. Veer reduction to Constitution has no effect on maneuver.

    Action: I used the crew action aboard Guerriere to reload guns the same turn using the well trained crew card. Maybe it should be a free action, but in advanced rules I would still think that you have to use a crew action to accomplish it.

    Combat: Constitution uses cannon and carronade to fire on Guerriere. 2 chits, 5 damage to crew and one dismast.
    Guerriere gets a broadside rake thanks to it's well trained crew, and causes 11 damage and one crew damage.

    At this point, Guerriere sails away and fixes her mast, Constitution fixes her rudder and the both go at it again, keeping their distance. That's the natural reaction to close action. In this instance, Guerriere's crew was decimated. Another crew hit made her strike her colors. But carronades didn't factor in. Carronades are not a game changer under these rules, they only halve the long distance power of the ships that they are on.

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    Guerriere suffers a real pounding

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    These cards were more help than the carronades. Well trained means you can reload the same turn, the only advantage carronades have!
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Kentop; 07-03-2016 at 14:55.

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    It was a big advantage on smaller ships or replacing smaller guns; on an SOL it kind of made you a one-trick pony, and who's gonna want to get into carronade range of a 74 when you can just trade long-range broadsides or maybe knock out their rigging and potshot 'em while they're Dead In The Water?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    It was a big advantage on smaller ships or replacing smaller guns; on an SOL it kind of made you a one-trick pony, and who's gonna want to get into carronade range of a 74 when you can just trade long-range broadsides or maybe knock out their rigging and potshot 'em while they're Dead In The Water?
    Exactly! In the actual battle, both ships saw each other well before carronade range. Guerriere turned and ran downwind, tacking to deliver 3 broadsides at Constitution, all of which missed. Constitution crowded on sail, Guerriere did not, allowing the Constitution to catch up.
    Bad move.
    Last edited by Kentop; 07-03-2016 at 15:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bligh View Post
    From what you gentlemen are saying, it seems as if Carronades added more punch at close range than the new rules are giving us then.
    Rob.
    Correct. It should be twice the firepower at half range, or, as the rule stands, firing at full strength every turn. like the Well Trained Gunners card.

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    On the other hand, a few other members here tested my initial Double-at-Half proposal and found it a big gamble: overpowered when in range, useless if you couldn't get into range, Win Big or Die Big--not the stuff of a fun game.

    And another datapoint to consider is a carronade was faster to reload than a long gun, lighter weapon and the slide mounting mean less effort to wrangle it around the deck.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 07-03-2016 at 18:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    On the other hand, a few other members here tested my initial Double-at-Half proposal and found it a big gamble: overpowered when in range, useless if you couldn't get into range, Win Big or Die Big--not the stuff of a fun game.

    And another datapoint to consider is a carronade was faster to reload than a long gun, lighter weapon and the slide mounting mean less effort to wrangle it around the deck.
    Double at half might be a bit too much. Win Big or Die Big is really fun if lots of ships are involved. Crew savings was not a big deal. A 24 pounder had six crewmen. A 64 pounder carronade used 5 men. A 48 or 36 pound carronade also used 5 man crews. The weight reduction gained by using carronades was equalized by the weight of the extra amount of ammo needed to feed them. Which, I think, is why carronades disappeared by the time ironclad steamship arrived.

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    Ken, just trying to suggest possibilities for why they took the tack they did--possibly higher rate of fire?

    But as noted, the usual guns replaced by carronades didn't exactly add a particularly impressive amount of hitting power to an SOL except for disposing of smaller, agile close-in pests or maybe loading with grape for antipersonnel work.

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    The mention of grape is interesting. I can see where grape every move could be devastating in its own right.
    This discussion is getting more and more interesting.
    Thanks chaps.
    I think it high time you both got a bit of Rep for this.
    Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Ken, just trying to suggest possibilities for why they took the tack they did--possibly higher rate of fire?

    But as noted, the usual guns replaced by carronades didn't exactly add a particularly impressive amount of hitting power to an SOL except for disposing of smaller, agile close-in pests or maybe loading with grape for antipersonnel work.
    I think all of your suggestions are great. This thread and especially your posts really give me something I can sink my teeth into when trying out new strategies and tactics during solo games. Thanks for all the ship stats, too.

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    Aw, shucks, guys... just tryin' to do a job the best way I know how. But thanks, both of ya.

    Another thing Ares fails to take into account adequately is weight of guns: a six-pounder ain't gonna do much against anything bigger than a light frigate or maybe a medium; against an SOL you'd have as much effect as to drop trou and p*ss at the other ship's hull. Replacing that gun with a carronade... well, six-pounders were only good at about carronade range anyway, so in that case each replacement triples that gunport's throw at the same range.

    Per the Osprey Napoleonic Naval Armaments volume, max ranges at 10-deg elev:
    18# 2130 yd
    24# 2630
    32# 2493
    32#crde 1930 (at 11deg)

    From a gunner's logbook found aboard Victory:
    Gun Pointblank Utmost Out Angle
    3# 400 1760 2000
    4# 500 2200 2500
    6# 666 3080 3330
    9# 716 3520 3580
    12# 733 3520 3665
    18# 615 3080 3080
    24# 650 3080 3050
    32# 633 3080 3165
    42# 583 2640 2915
    Last edited by Diamondback; 07-04-2016 at 15:33.

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    You are way too modest about your efforts DB.
    Thanks for this latest bit of info.
    These Carronades are getting more interesting by the second.
    Rob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    Anyone notice this new offering from Ares? Good to get some attention again

    "Two historical scenarios to be played using the ships HMS Victory and USS Constitution, featured in the Sails of Glory Special Packs."

    http://www.aresgames.eu/16974

    Edit: includes a carronade optional rule. Very interesting take on it...
    Completely different question . . . but for the Victory scenario, when is it supposed to end? The victory conditions just talk about whoever loses more ships, but no mention of when to tally that up.

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    Rob

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    Morning Thomas.
    For us it is usually when either a set objective is achieved, you run out of playing time because the venue is closing, or when the Port takes effect on the last man standing.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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