Brainstorming: Fort Miniatures

[Diamondback]

Some of us have expressed a desire to see an official line of SGN Coastal Fort Miniatures to interact with our ships, so I thought I'd open a thread to discuss the idea and brainstorm.

First, we have some questions--we know "Ground Scale" is not to-scale with the ships. Should we figure on similar exaggeration for our theoretical fort line, or made to match ground-scale? Remember, the Franco-Spanish line at Trafalgar was over TEN MILES long--in game terms, we're talking a table sixteen meters long. Roughly the length of a typical bus... and from the rear of the two British lines to greatest dispersion eastward from the Franco-Spanish starting position about the same distance.

Second, I know some folks would prefer generics, but others would prefer accurate models of specific installations. We can safely assume that we're looking at least at Small/Medium/Large or S/M/L/HUGE classes, so how do we classify those and where do we rank the world's coastal fortifications of the Napoleonic era and before into whatever chosen ratings system?

And then from there, what structures do we need? El Morro in Havana is an icon that would be Large or Huge, while British Martello towers could be done as one or two generic designs that would probably be firmly in the Small class, possibly even sell as a two-pack.

I know this is the kind of thing I usually build all those nice neat little tables for, but right now there isn't enough information for me to even start planning those tables never mind collecting data and filling them.

[Hyperfocal]

I would certainly be keen for something like this to come along. As I mentioned in a previous post there are few options for chaps like me who don't have the skill or time available to construct forts, breakwalls and other coastal features.

I would prefer generic items as I have no intention of playing historical scenarios at this point, and would just need the models to expand my game play options and generally add to the atmosphere on the table.

Fingers crossed.

[TexaS]

I would think that compressing the forts lengthwise more than heightwise would make for forts that take up less of the table space but still look ok next to the ships.

I would think that historical forts would be preferred as those could be used by both groups of players. There are some forts already available from several makers and those would perhaps not be of the highest priority.
I know that still existing forts are those that's easiest to make but I would prefer if it instead were the forts that played a role in famous battles that would be of priority. There were those from the the Battle of the Nile and the Battle of Copenhagen to mention some.

[Hjl]

Dover Castle, Spitbank Fort, Fort Boyard.

Not sure not the dates on some of them, but they are great looking fortifications!

[Naharaht]

Martello Towers?

[Diamondback]

Martello Towers?

Ya know, THESE? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martello_tower :D

[Bligh]

Great find DB.
It has taught me a thing or two and I knew about Martello towers, and Henrician Forts like Pendennis and St Mawes.




What I did not know was how widespread they were about the world. I thought they mainly existed along the coasts of Britain, France, Spain and Tuscany.
I have one incorporated in my terrain models, but this opens up the chance of using that piece in the New World, India and the Oceanic area.
Thank you very much for discovering this treasure.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

I used the Martello Towers from Brigade models in my small pirate island, but large forts of that era would be a nice addition for anyone who might want to model the colonial era?

Expanding on what Brigade has done is certainly an option: http://brigademodels.co.uk/SmallScaleScenery/index.html

To be more historically specific I would like the two major forts from Port Royal prior to the great earthquake in 1692. While Fort James went underwater, Fort Charles is still there today. Again I would think any forts of the era on Jamaica or any of the West Indies islands could be used chronologically for 17th, 18th and 19th centuries sea and fort battles?





You'll see from this map that there were other forts as well? Fort Morgan, Fort Carlisle, Fort Rupert and Fort Walker



Fort Charles today

[Hjl]

Oh wow it is tempting to try and build that!

[David Manley]

Chaps, my reading of the tea leaves is that fortifications would be well down Ares' list of priorities at least for several years. Instead it may be worth discussing with other manufacturers to see what they could do to expand existing lines. Brigade Models comes to mind, they have a number of very nice fortification models available that work very well with SGN models. And they hve in the past been quite receptive to suggestions - their Palmerson Fort and Southsea Castle models for example, they were suggested by a friend of mine as being interesting subjects to try and Brigade put them together and up for sale pretty quickly.

[Bligh]

I see that Brigade Models will be at 17th July : The Joy of Six, Hallam University, Sheffield.
Most of my town was sourced from them. Nor must we forget Julian's efforts. He is producing some really beautiful forts.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

True--I mainly wanted to open a line of discussion, both for Long Range Consideration and for developing community guidelines for selecting and statting unofficial installations. (For example, fire arcs I'm shaky on, but Morro Castle mounted around 64 heavy guns.)

Any of you guys know of any good reference sites on coastal fortifications? Coastal Defense Study Group likes to keep stuff to their newsletter only, and Wikipedia's damn near useless beyond "where they were". Did find this start for Central America/West Caribbean though: http://www.northamericanforts.com/Latin/central.html

[Bligh]

I am just using the stats for the various forts that Ares have published. For Morro it can do the total of the largest fort on both flanks with no blind spot in the middle.
Rob.

[Devsdoc]

My thoughts (or forts).
Castles come in two types. High walls and towers pre- cannons, but still around. Or the "Vauban" short but very thick walls and angled glades. Also the bigger the fort then added Bastions and free standing Ravrlin's All to stop cannon balls. The Bastions and Ravrlins allowed soldiers to shot along the length of the forts own walls. Sometimes called "Star Forts" in the U.K..
Henry 8th loved cannons so started building forts along the English south coast. The first one at "Dartmouth" was still of the old fashion tower type, but with lots of gun emplacements.
By the end of the program forts like Deal, St Mawes, Portland and Southsea are being built. Deal, Southsea being of the large type, Portland being very small, the gunners living in the town. The one thing they all have is chimney's to let the gun-smoke up and out of the emplacements. Though they are all a little different, but are basically the same. So one or two models could repentant most of the south-coast forts.
Martello towers are now well serviced by model maker's.
Dover castle is very large and covers lots of periods. Roman to the 1960's. So to model it one would need lots of different period buildings to make it. Also a very big hill to put it on. "Pendennis" is also a large castle/fort and used as a garrison camp as well.
The French, the home of "Vaudan" had a lot of his design of defense's and some lovely forts on outcrops of rocks and islands around there harbours.
In the "New World" At first built stockade forts made of wood. Later they built "Star-forts" and "Vaudan" style forts. Sometimes only part of the design was used eg Fort James and fort Walker in Port Royal. Only 1 or 2 sides of a fort more like a Ravrlins.
Langton makes parts of the "Vaudan" walls, witch you can add together and make your own forts. "Langton" and "Brigade Models" more so B.M. make some nice forts. Paint one or two colours and the "Army paint Dip" and they are done. I do not glue forts and batteries to the shore-land so I can change them around
It's towns that are the big problem. Space is money! Many modelers make towns with wide open spaces. This was done with half dozen at most wide open roads/streets. The rest of the town's/cities are like a rabbit warren. Pack the houses in! It would be nice if someone would make bases of houses which we could use to build up into towns/Cities. With the odd one with a church or town hall on it. Some bases with wide streets, trade area's etc. All being able to fit together.
I would say that "Langton's" harbour bits work and with a little bit of thought, one can make nice harbours now. You can buy a harbour set in 2 sizes or parts off. Also the harbour and buildings from the Ancient Med range. Painting? See above! I dipped a lot with mine!
Ships enter harbours, Towns/Cities frame harbours and land frames Town's/Cities. So I would match shore scales with ship scales.
Sorry for this long post, just my thoughts (Forts)
Be safe
Rory

[Nightmoss]

For those of us in the states Brigade Models are distributed/sold here by Pico Armor. I've ordered several items from them and they are pretty fast and very reliable.

http://www.picoarmor.com/pico-produc...igade%20Models

[Nightmoss]

Chaps, my reading of the tea leaves is that fortifications would be well down Ares' list of priorities at least for several years. Instead it may be worth discussing with other manufacturers to see what they could do to expand existing lines. Brigade Models comes to mind, they have a number of very nice fortification models available that work very well with SGN models. And they hve in the past been quite receptive to suggestions - their Palmerson Fort and Southsea Castle models for example, they were suggested by a friend of mine as being interesting subjects to try and Brigade put them together and up for sale pretty quickly.

Doesn't surprise me that Ares is unlikely to get into this area of gaming. More and more I'm thinking I may have to invest in an inexpensive 3D printer. Prices keep falling drastically, but more importantly the 3D rendering software is getting easier for amateurs to handle.

[Nightmoss]

True--I mainly wanted to open a line of discussion, both for Long Range Consideration and for developing community guidelines for selecting and statting unofficial installations. (For example, fire arcs I'm shaky on, but Morro Castle mounted around 64 heavy guns.)

Any of you guys know of any good reference sites on coastal fortifications? Coastal Defense Study Group likes to keep stuff to their newsletter only, and Wikipedia's damn near useless beyond "where they were". Did find this start for Central America/West Caribbean though: http://www.northamericanforts.com/Latin/central.html

I'm in the middle of a Naval Action exercise so I can't answer your question very well, but I did find this site rather interesting.

http://clements.umich.edu/exhibits/o.../geometry1.php

[Bligh]

I'm in the middle of a Naval Action exercise so I can't answer you question very well, but I did find this site rather interesting.

http://clements.umich.edu/exhibits/o.../geometry1.php

Very interesting Jim. i have saved that for posterity.
Should be a very useful asset. Some of the publications also look very enticing also.
Rob.

[Bligh]

This could also prove very useful DB.

http://www.northamericanforts.com/Latin/central.html

Thank you for supplying it. I just wish that I could find something similar for the East Indies and Indian Ocean.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

You and me both, Rob... especially with us both working on our own versions of the Indian Ocean Campaign. :(

[Nightmoss]

This could also prove very useful DB.

http://www.northamericanforts.com/Latin/central.html

Thank you for supplying it. I just wish that I could find something similar for the East Indies and Indian Ocean.
Rob.

Yes, a very nice site.

[Diamondback]

Rob, here's a little on India for ya:
http://googlesightseeing.com/2009/04...coastal-forts/

[TWR]

I've seen some excellent models of forts on this site. As a result I have been considering obtaining some for some months from Brigade Models.

However, I'm not sure how to represent the firing point, from which measurement is made, or the firing arcs. How have players handled these, and marked them on the models?

[Devsdoc]

I've seen some excellent models of forts on this site. As a result I have been considering obtaining some for some months from Brigade Models.

However, I'm not sure how to represent the firing point, from which measurement is made, or the firing arcs. How have players handled these, and marked them on the models?

I would use a fan shape template. and put the full broadside area in the middle. The two half broadside areas to the sides. Cut the point bit of the fan to match the fort base shape so it can rap around the forts base, So if the target is in the front of the fort it gets the full broadside. Or if too one side only a part broadside. Before the game starts you must state which part is the front of the fort or keep the template on the table. If it is a big fort or long battery it may need two templates to show all of the target areas. A Martello tower will always have a full broadside. An all round sea/island fort could have a round template marked full, part, full part etc all around it. Again mark one point so you cannot spin it round to always get a full broadside, I do not play S.O.G. but I think you could match a fort/castle/battery fire power to a ships rate. A big fort could have two different rates at different parts of the fort/battery. eg the side pointing out to sea as a 3rd rate and the bit covering the harbour mouth a 4th, 5th or 6th rate. You may have to make a template for each fort/castle/ battery, to show it's broadside areas. I would add a little too the range as the fort is not moving. Also have a blind spot at very close range, Hope this starts some ideas for you all. Again, note I do not play this game.
Be safe
Rory

[TexaS]

However, I'm not sure how to represent the firing point, from which measurement is made, or the firing arcs. How have players handled these, and marked them on the models?

I usually just use the ruler and put the blue musket range inside the wall and put the ruler perpendicular to the wall.

Regarding which fire arc is which I just decide beforehand. If the fort is symmetrical as those French half circle forts I usually say they can fire a complete arc from the middle and as far out there's guns. By splitting it in the middle I get two arcs which is common for the forts in the fort rules.

With Julián's big fort I use just two arcs even though it's so big as it has quite visibly not much guns straight out. For arcs I still just put the ruler perpendicular to the wall and see if if can fire.

I personally always let forts measure before firing because they're non moving installations that knows how far their guns can reach.

[Bligh]

Pretty much what I do Jonas. Just measure from the wall in an arc as far as the guns go.
If the fort is on a cliff top I do not allow raking fire, because of the plunging nature of the shot.
Rob.

[Bligh]

Rob, here's a little on India for ya:
http://googlesightseeing.com/2009/04...coastal-forts/

Thanks for that DB.
They are much more extensive than I envisaged. Not something to be engaged by a 74 and a couple of Frigates!
Rob.

[TexaS]

Pretty much what I do Jonas. Just measure from the wall in an arc as far as the guns go.
If the fort is on a cliff top I do not allow raking fire, because of the plunging nature of the shot.
Rob.

I've been toying with the idea of letting my fort up on a cliff have a longer range. I'd give it a ruler and a half long range but no short range. That would allow for coming too close for the fort to be able to depress their guns that much. Since the bases are pretty big it'll be a tight fit but possible.

[Hjl]

I've been toying with the idea of letting my fort up on a cliff have a longer range. I'd give it a ruler and a half long range but no short range. That would allow for coming too close for the fort to be able to depress their guns that much. Since the bases are pretty big it'll be a tight fit but possible.

I've been thinking about how to do that for a while. I like that idea a lot!

[Bligh]

It also fits in with my thinking on the subject.
Rob.

[Pulver]

I have in my brick-a-brack the star fort offered by Valiant miniatures. In 1/2000 scale, Valiant's scale, the walls towered to an unrealistic height. I find that it is not out of scale for SoG, if but a bit small. I plan on using one of these in SoG. In any case, to introduce the concept of terrain and fortresses in two dimension in what is clearly a three dimensional game, struck me as absurd. ARES, what can you be thinking?

[Bligh]

I think they were introducing a new extension of the game in a cheap format so that people could be induced to expand the gaming experience without an inordinate outlay Mick. If it were a success, those of us with expendable incomes could move on to the 3D world which lends itself very nicely to coastal landscape. As you point out it is silly not to do it, because unlike Wings there is no problem of ships running across the fields unless you have a tsunami written into the game.
Rob.