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Thread: Wave #4

  1. #1
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    Default Wave #4

    Hello mates
    About the third wave we still do not know many things, but enough to think about the future. So I decided to start this thread.

    I hope that you will be here actively share our wishes, speculations about a possible fourth wave. Let Ares mates know that the community is active and demands that SoG still need to developed and introduced a new parts (although half as active as they do at Wings).

    Cheers!

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    Big boats take the glory, little boats make the sailor

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    Wave 4 eh? It should be famous pirate ships!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjl View Post
    Wave 4 eh? It should be famous pirate ships!
    Nooooo!
    Big boats take the glory, little boats make the sailor

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    I echo Kamil, would prefer Spanish frigate, Brit 2nd rate or large 3rd, Dutch SoL and frigate.
    I believe wave four are already allocated so maybe this should be Wave 5 :)
    Last edited by Capn Duff; 05-14-2016 at 02:30.

  5. #5
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    Yes Chris, DB wrote that the sculptures are being developed. But we do not know at what stage it is.
    So mayby that discussion can be had any influence on the final shape
    Big boats take the glory, little boats make the sailor

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDz View Post
    Nooooo!
    Who wouldnt want to own the Queen Annes Revenge or the Ranger? You could do so many great battles with them.

    They might also increase the player base if SOG did some sort of pirate starter set as well. (pipe dream i know)

  7. #7

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    On BoardGameGeek some time back they outlined wave 4 as such:

    We are prototyping wave 4, which will feature one of the ships "voted" by our Anchorage fans - John Paul Jones' Bonhomme Richard, French 80-guns ships of the line, English 64 guns, and Spanish frigates of the Mahonesa class. We expect wave 4 to be released around the end of 2016.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjl View Post
    Who wouldnt want to own the Queen Annes Revenge or the Ranger? You could do so many great battles with them.

    They might also increase the player base if SOG did some sort of pirate starter set as well. (pipe dream i know)
    Unfortunately Hugh, me for one. i have little interest in pirate ships or including them in the game.
    However that is my own personal view so it would only be myself that would not indulge. I have no issues at all blowing them out of the water with a nice large frigate or a new 64. Nor anyone else wanting to use them, it just not for me

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    An British East Indiaman cargo ship, a French or Spanish cargo ship, more American ships, Dutch or Danish ships.

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    Yes, a proper merchantman would be a great boon!

  11. #11

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    Bonhomme Richard was a converted East Indiaman, if I recall correctly, so I think the idea is to use that model to also do some generic indiaman merchant ships

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    Merchant ships, galleys, gun boats, and xebecs. Oh and giant 140 gun Spanish ships please.

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    Do you think, that a good idea would be to issue eg. two models in one box (maybe two smaller sloops/marchant or other classes)?
    Something of what we see in the X-wing line:
    https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/e...xpansion-pack/
    https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/e...xpansion-pack/
    https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/e...xpansion-pack/
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  14. #14

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    I would like to see Wave 5 bring in any of the missing ships (English, French or Spanish) that would fill in the gaps needed to recreate the Battle of Trafalgar. I'd also like Ares to release the strategic ship rules they've promised to make large ship battle possible.

    AND

    As has been touched on in some other threads in the past I'd also like to see Ares release a stand alone set that focuses on the Age of Exploration and the Golden Age of Piracy. If they don't have money or inclination to do it as a miniatures game then do it as a card set. Use similar ship maneuvering, but address the several issues around smaller ships that aren't as adequately covered as they might have been in Sails of Glory.
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    Some merchants please the're not very exciting, but add a lot to game play. How about some forts? Not being much of a modeller it would be great to be able to buy something ready to go out of the box.

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    I wonder if Ares would consider a generic merchant ship, specially not modelled with a flag. I'm aware of how few models are released and it would be a shame to have too many variations.
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    Cat's out of the bag, then! Time to update the Roadmap... Bold is released or confirmed, lower are my personal thoughts on good fits.

    110+-gun Heavy 3-decker SOL:
    --2 British SGN108 Ville de Paris and Hibernia
    --6 French SGN106 Ocean
    --6 Spanish Wave 3 SGN[109-112] Meregildos

    --American N/A
    --Future Expansion Nations: ?

    100-110-gun Medium 3-decker SOL
    --5 British SGN108 and 201 HMS Victory

    90-98-gun Light 3-decker SOL
    --British:
    ----propose 2 as SGN108D sides A & B, using HMS Victory deck and hull stats with weaker guns (1810 Boyne/Union, identical hulls but lighter loads)
    ----possibly another SGN108 "re-stat" as the 1777 Dukes and 1797 Dreadnoughts
    ----an "early" sculpt as the older Neptunes and Londons

    80-gun/Large 74 Heavy 2-decker SOL
    --British: Suggest a Henslow Large 74 sculpt, possibly with alternate stats applied for the rare British 80s
    --French: Wave 4 Tonnant/Bucentaure 80
    --Spanish: Montanes
    --American: suggest a Special Pack with Independence/Washington

    Middling 74 Medium 2-decker SOL
    --British: Suggest a Courageux/Armada-family sculpt
    --French: SGN102 Temeraire
    --Spanish: Wave 3 SGN[109-112] Gautier 74 family


    Common 74 Medium 2-decker SOL
    --British: SGN104 Slade Common 74

    --French: ? (maybe should be a Middling) would like an Early French 74 sculpt
    --Spanish: ? (maybe should be Middling) would like an Ildefonso as a "late" Spanish 74

    64-gun Light 2-decker SOL
    --British: one coming in Wave 4
    --French: Wave 3 SGN[109-112] 1765 Artesien & similar

    --Spanish: ???

    ----Two-Decker Cruisers and EIMs----

    58-62-gun heavy 2-deckers

    50-56-gun medium 2-deckers
    --Wave 3 British [SGN109-112] Portland 50 cruiser
    --suggest French Bordelais/similar 56 cruiser

    40-44-gun light 2-deckers
    --suggest British Roebuck 44 cruiser
    --Wave 4 French Groignard 900-ton EIM
    --Wave 4 American (modified G-900) Bonhomme Richard cruiser


    ----Frigates----

    50-58-gun heavy frigates (includes Humphreys superfrigates)
    --suggest British Endymion
    --suggest British ex-74 razees
    --French Pallas
    --US Constitution special-pack
    --suggest Humphreys and Doughty superfrigates

    38-44-gun medium frigates
    --suggest SGN104 reprint as British Ledas and Livelys
    --French Hebe and descendants

    32-36-gun light frigates
    --British 1773 Amazon 32 and similar
    --French 1777-design 32s and similar
    --Wave 4 Spanish Mahonesa 32-34
    Last edited by Diamondback; 05-15-2016 at 22:01.

  18. #18

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    Nice update there DB. Thanks!
    "It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
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  19. #19
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    Sounds good! Merchantmen then! Yay!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    ...
    --French: Wave 4 Tonnant/Bucentaure 80
    That's what I'm waiting for.

    2 waves away.
    Last edited by Comte de Brueys; 05-16-2016 at 05:54.

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    A very useful ammendment. That brings everything into proper relationship for me.
    Thanks DB.
    Rob.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comte de Brueys View Post
    That's what I'm waiting for.

    2 waves away.
    So, maybe we'll see them in 2 to 4 years?
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    I hope that some of BD suggestions are taken, a English heavy 74 would be nice so I can have HMS Mars for my avatar namesake.
    Some Spanish Montagnes be good and I second the hurrah for the Bucentaure

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    To be honest, I haven't even Roadmapped post ships/corvettes and Unrateds, every time I try to dig into the little guys they give me screaming nightmares.

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    What's a little sanity loss for the good of the community?

    You know you want to.

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    Jonas, I'm going to pass along some wisdom a wise old man once passed down to me:

    "When it stops being fun, it's time to walk away."

    Post ships are okay as I can get sufficient usable info on the Royal Navy's, their other-flag counterparts are where strain starts to show. Unrateds are where the fun officially STOPS.

    If somebody wants to take point on them, I'll gladly assist--but we're also looking at a firm floor that anything below a gun-deck length of 28m Ain't Gonna Happen due to limits of manufacturing technology.

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    Oh. If you don't find it fun, then definitely stop.

    Sometimes it can be fun but hard and still be worth it, but if it's only hard work and no fun it should be paid for.

    We're still grateful for everything you've done already!

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Jonas, I'm going to pass along some wisdom a wise old man once passed down to me:

    "When it stops being fun, it's time to walk away."

    Post ships are okay as I can get sufficient usable info on the Royal Navy's, their other-flag counterparts are where strain starts to show. Unrateds are where the fun officially STOPS.

    If somebody wants to take point on them, I'll gladly assist--but we're also looking at a firm floor that anything below a gun-deck length of 28m Ain't Gonna Happen due to limits of manufacturing technology.
    Isn't a big 'issue' with the smaller and unrated ships is how they'll ever fit into the existing combat system? I know you've brought this up and so has David. As I interpret it Ares didn't allow enough room at the bottom to let the small ships fit in robustly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexaS View Post
    Oh. If you don't find it fun, then definitely stop.

    Sometimes it can be fun but hard and still be worth it, but if it's only hard work and no fun it should be paid for.

    We're still grateful for everything you've done already!
    Glad to have lent an assist--and having good people around here helping make it happen has gone a long way too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Isn't a big 'issue' with the smaller and unrated ships is how they'll ever fit into the existing combat system? I know you've brought this up and so has David. As I interpret it Ares didn't allow enough room at the bottom to let the small ships fit in robustly?
    That is one of the big problems--but we still need a lot of smaller ships if they're serious about their stated goal of War of 1812--the small fry on Trafalgar sound like they're going to be set aside to focus on the main Lines of Battle.

    Filling out Flamborough Head, the 20-gun Countess of Scarborough could probably be passed off with a Swan reprint (Thorn was upgunned to an 18, so I'd say CoS as a sloop-of-war shouldn't be appreciably different), so then all we need is to find a close relative for Pallas.

  30. #30

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    The rules as they are, or rather the stat range that Ares have saddled themselves with, are fairly inappropriate for most of what one would want to do with 1812. If they are going to cover "small fry" it needs an official variant to support it.

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    Idea: Think such a "Small Game Variant" might work as a stripped-down ruleset for a Duel Pack?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capn Duff View Post
    Unfortunately Hugh, me for one. i have little interest in pirate ships or including them in the game.
    However that is my own personal view so it would only be myself that would not indulge. I have no issues at all blowing them out of the water with a nice large frigate or a new 64. Nor anyone else wanting to use them, it just not for me
    Duff,

    You can't mean Meshuda, that Barbary schooner of the adventurous Murad Reis, could you? My heart is broken. Oh, I may never recover.
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    Rules are rough approximations of what you think I might do!

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Idea: Think such a "Small Game Variant" might work as a stripped-down ruleset for a Duel Pack?
    Sure. Could you move the game back chronologically for that two pack? Spanish galleon vs. privateers? Perhaps an excellent time to introduce a 'historical' pirate 2 pack. Anglo-Dutch Wars? Regardless I wouldn't mind moving the game back in time when it wasn't the British winning almost every historical naval engagement.
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    Baby Steps first, Jim! Rob at Ares doesn't think DP's can work simply because of how much the rules need to be stripped down to fit into the available booklet space...

    Galleon v Privs sounds more like a full new Starter Set...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos'n View Post
    Duff,

    You can't mean Meshuda, that Barbary schooner of the adventurous Murad Reis, could you? My heart is broken. Oh, I may never recover.
    Ooooh Bob, of course there can be notable exceptions my friend

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Baby Steps first, Jim! Rob at Ares doesn't think DP's can work simply because of how much the rules need to be stripped down to fit into the available booklet space......
    Oh thats a shame, I though a frigate dual pack with just the basic/ intermediate rules would have worked nicely as an introduction to the main starter set, of course both would need to be available at the same time.

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    I was thinking start on DP rules by stripping out Sail Settings rules entirely, for one, just having the entire mini-game be at Battle Sail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Baby Steps first, Jim! Rob at Ares doesn't think DP's can work simply because of how much the rules need to be stripped down to fit into the available booklet space...

    Galleon v Privs sounds more like a full new Starter Set...
    If Roberto is against the DP idea I rather doubt it's going to get much traction at Ares?

    Personally I do think the game can be stripped down significantly and still be a fun introduction to the larger more complex version. The big Gen Con Record Breaker event in 2014 had 50+ people playing the game in minutes with really simplified rules. What we used could easily be adapted for a Dual Pack? Here's my recollection from the battle and a link to the thread where it was mentioned in 2014.

    Basically at Long Range A, a full broadside would automatically hit for one hull box of damage. A front or stern broadside would hit for 1/2 hull box damage. At short Range B a full broadside would hit for 2 hull damage boxes of damage and a front or stern arc broadside would hit for 1 hull box of damage.
    We only used ball ammo, basic rules for all movement, although I think standard rules might have been used in some cases of folks being taken aback? Collision damage an automatic one hull damage if I recall correctly? And I don't think musketry fire was done, but I was so focused on my French counterpart and we never closed to that range in any case?
    http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...record+breaker

    I'm not a game designer, but I do know you can do many things to simplify games as an introduction. The starter set itself does that with Basic, Standard and Advanced Rules.

    Things I might do if I were designing a DP: Use specialty dice to bring in the chance of fire, leaks, mast damage, etc. Use dice for damage or some version of the Gen Con rules for damage. Only single card planning/movement. No raking, no musketry and no collision damage period. Produce single molded ships with less detail to keep the costs down, OR use cards to represent the ships on the table (I know the card idea isn't going to fly, but we keep bringing it up anyway).

    Oh, and I'd definitely purchase a Spanish Galleon/Privateer Starter Box if Ares ever produced one.
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  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Rob at Ares doesn't think DP's can work simply because of how much the rules need to be stripped down to fit into the available booklet space...
    How much would the rules need to be reduced? Right now the basic/intermediate/advanced only takes half the rulebook. The rest is optional rules and scenarios.

    Not only that, now there's this newfangled thing called (if my sources have informed me correctly) the "World Wide Interwebs". Stick the basic and maybe intermediate rules in the box and tell people they can go online to view/print the expanded book with diagrams, examples, advanced and optional rules, scenarios, etc.

    That sounds like a bit of fig-leaf for more fundamental objections (i.e. simply a gut feeling, or "We don't have bandwidth to even *think* about another SGN SKU", etc.)

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    Fred, good point--but how big is that half-rulebook compared to the simplified "Quick Start" of the WGF Duel Packs?

    The other possibility is it's a token "if you guys are serious about this Make The Business Case"--much like I try to challenge people to do in my little survey threads here and at the Drome with "pick one plane/ship, then justify why out of two/four slots available on the next run of that sculpt your choice should take priority over ALL others as a candidate for production." People who have to sell ideas to others are more open to hearing your ideas when you give them a ready-made argument they can pick up and run with only needing a little work if any to fine-tune--I learned this trick from an old classmate who's now a local legislator.

  42. #42

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    I don't think its the rulebook that is the issue. True, the rules could be cut down to essentials and made into a small booklet, but I think the amount of other material needed would probably make a duel pack approach quite tricky to make work. Not impossible though

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    but how big is that half-rulebook compared to the simplified "Quick Start" of the WGF Duel Packs?
    Dunno, I guess that's my question since I've never seen a duel pack

    Presumably, though, if the idea was otherwise deemed good, it would not have to conform *precisely* to that limit

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The other possibility is it's a token "if you guys are serious about this Make The Business Case"--much like I try to challenge people to do in my little survey threads here and at the Drome with "pick one plane/ship, then justify why out of two/four slots available on the next run of that sculpt your choice should take priority over ALL others as a candidate for production." People who have to sell ideas to others are more open to hearing your ideas when you give them a ready-made argument they can pick up and run with only needing a little work if any to fine-tune--I learned this trick from an old classmate who's now a local legislator.
    I would not be surprised if pre-packaging arguments and laws for legislators is very effective in getting them to follow your desired policies. In business, however, my experience has been that "gut feel" drives things, and then "business cases" are usually created after the fact, to support the manager's/entrepreneur's "gut feel" in persuading higher-ups or investors to come on board.

    Not that it's not a good exercise to make the business case, gather the data, work through the assumptions, etc. It's a useful process. But as a decision-making tool it is suspect, because usually small-but-plausible changes in the input variables will result in widely divergent projected outcomes

    The other issue here is that given the data already available to Ares, no one outside the company is likely to be able to create an even halfway-credible argument/business case. They know SO much more about the production costs, opportunity costs of putting staff on it, feedback from distributor channels, sales run rates, etc. etc. than anyone else.

    Again, that's not to say that their gut-feel on this (which I assume is actually driving things) is necessarily right or wrong, but either way, from outside there aren't really any levers to challenge that gut-feel once the suggestion has been made and rejected.

    What we would need is an internal champion for all our brilliant ideas

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    David and I are probably as "internal" as you're likely to see on that front. :( I keep hoping, given how scattered across Italy (and thus probably telecon/webex-dependent) they are, that they'll in-source me letting me work from the States, but...

    I have an idea for a Special Scenario Pack, but because it's a little "unbalanced" (lighter frigate and heavier SOL vs lighter SOL and heavier frigate) I don't see it flying. It would be a Second Rate sculpt once we have one, a Temeraire reprint as Marengo, an Amazon reprint as the similar but slightly-bigger 1799 HMS Amazon andd a Hebe reprint as Belle Poule, designed to replicate the Action of 13 Mar 1806.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_13_March_1806

    On the other hand, such a box might give a good sampling of what the game can offer across a broad range of ship types...

  45. #45

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    I agree with David's point that there's too much "stuff" in the starter game to easily transition to a DP or smaller scenario pack.

    Give me the 3D ships, base card, ship card and interlocking ship sheet. Lose the chits completely and use dice to replace them for statistical purposes. You could write simplified rules and still have a fun game. I'd also push the idea of a good set of solo rules as well.

    Is that all cost effective depending on where Ares wants Sails to be in the near future? I expect not.
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  46. #46
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    Having a dual pack with different sets of rules would, in my view, be a mistake. It will create confusion and no clear path to the full rules.

    I would prefer to see the full rules with counters as an accessory pack. Then players can buy a model or two and join the game. Then when they want to play others they buy an accessory pack with all the counters and gauges. This is of course the path that WW2 Wings of Glory has gone down. In some way this could be done by using the counter set and additional ship logs.
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