The view from the inside... crossposting from the 'Drome

[Diamondback]

Crossposting something I thought our non-'Dromers might appreciate seeing...

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There were a couple questions asked of the devs on another game's forum wwhere I'm a backer that got me to thinking, so I'm going to peel back the veil on what it's like working with Ares a bit.

Questions were: "Devs, how does it feel to see your work cause such joy/rage?"

Answer: It SUCKS being caught in the middle sometimes. You see friends with concerns, some of which you think are totally justified and pass along, others you want to tell them about all this really KEWL stuff you know is coming but the NDA won't let you. But the days when I see somebody lighting up the game forum with praise for a new release like Christmas came early... well, those moments are what make it worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed in the morning. :)

On my relationship with Ares: Officially, I don't get anything other than a Historical Consultant listing on Sails. (I WISH they were paying me!* LOL) Most of what I do is ferreting out data (again, mostly Sails stuff) and database architecture for said data.
*Seriously, the only place I'd rather work is in a college History department--my personal wet-dream is to teach at one of the service academies if only for a single term.

That and, they do rely on David M., myself and a few others to be kind of informal "community liaisons." We don't get all or even most of the keys to the kingdom, but we still get to see some pretty cool stuff. :) Funny thing is, this whole thread was just meant to share one observation and leave the On Payroll crew a spot to share their own thoughts if the mood struck... but other than that a One and Done.

As for delays... now that I've taught them about both Murphy's Law and Scotty's Law (ALWAYS multiply time estimates by a factor of four) we can hope that it'll improve some... bear in mind, the Sails Kickstarter came in a YEAR late. On the Giants, here's some numbers:
Ares original estimate: August 2015
My recommended revision: "Assume everything that possibly can go wrong at all stages from design to warehouse WILL, then add a few months--let's say Christmas to 1st Qtr 2016, that way if it all goes right and comes in early it looks like a miracle"
Ares revised estimate: November 2015
Actual: January-February 2016
Don't take that as "prophetic" or any kind of accurate guess, I just pulled a date out of my butt for an optimistic figure. Main point is, even taking the relative difficulties of moving a pre-designed item through Prod vs launching a whole new line from scratch into account, they ARE improving.

I'd like to say Sails Wave 4 was pretty much my baby as far as "concept", but that might be a bit of a stretch--I did the research about "most fan-wanted sculpts," checked out the most needed sculpts to fill out Trafalgar and Nile, mashed the two datasets together and put together a couple suggested slates for future waves, and Roberto picked up the ball and did a heck of a job turning three "by-name" and one "category" sculpt suggestions into a full production roster of eleven different ships and one foray into exploring "what might have been." In truth, it was really a team effort by the community and I was just the guy who got all the pieces of information where they needed to go. :) If anybody gets to take credit for Wave Four once it's announced, it's all of us--you spoke, I assembled the data and put into Roberto and Andrea's hands and they've picked up the ball to run it through production--and if it's anything like what I'm imagining it will be, it's gonna be some Really Cool Stuff.

[Tordenskjold]

Sir, thank you so much for your effort and the rest of the crew
Morten

[Dr.Maturin]

The problem is that we rarely get to see/know about the 'behind the scenes' stuff. Thanks for the enlightenment.

[Bligh]

Thanks for that insight DB.
It is always great to be reminded of all the work going on behind the scenes.
Sometimes I get so tied up with the Admin on the Drome, that it feels as if I'm the only one there, although I know I have a great team behind me, some of whom like Dave Manley, Eric, Chris and Neil are also on here. Then there is of course yourself and the other chaps in the States all pulling together. We all moan sometimes, but on the whole, we are getting a darned good deal from Ares.
A certain other firm with whom I deal took four years to implement an idea that I had, and it was only one of two things that they were developing at the time. Taken in that context,with Ares having three Glory products in train at the same time I'd say we get a pretty good crack of the whip.
Just remind me of this when I'm next in one of my brown studies.
Rob.

[garchilajr]

Thank you very much for letting us know!

[Herkybird]

Yes. Its a good thing to understand what Ares are really doing! I think people are far more patient and understanding if they are 'kept in the loop' and are reminded that the people at Ares are PEOPLE, and as such deserve respect.

Well. it IS Sunday, the time to preach!

[Nightmoss]

Thanks DB. Insightful and informative as always.

[Comte de Brueys]

Interesting.

So let's wait for the official announcements of the next series.



Thank you for the support.

[Naharaht]

Thank you for this insight, Diamondback, and for what you have been able to do for us and the game.

[TexaS]

Thank you, indeed.
There's been some speculation and some despair about the coming releases but producing detailed miniatures in China is a time consuming process. Design, prototype being sent, correction being made, first production sample sent for approval and finally transport of products on a slow boat from China. I'm not sure Ares goes through these steps but it wouldn't surprise me.

What do surprise me is the number of ships in the fourth wave. Not only do we get the four new sculpts but also not one special but three. I'm guessing that some of those are the exact same sculpts (as Agamemnon might be a special of the British 64s) but I do hope that Santissima is a new sculpt and one of those.

See, I told you there was still life in the old "Sails".

[Nightmoss]

Being the cynic I am I'd like to point out there's another new update on the Wings of War Facebook page, but still nothing for the Sails counterpart except language rules translations?

[Union Jack]

It will come when it comes. (I remember saying something similar on the 'Drome ref the Giants. Well they have and it was worth the wait).

[Diamondback]

Thank you, indeed.
There's been some speculation and some despair about the coming releases but producing detailed miniatures in China is a time consuming process. Design, prototype being sent, correction being made, first production sample sent for approval and finally transport of products on a slow boat from China. I'm not sure Ares goes through these steps but it wouldn't surprise me.

What do surprise me is the number of ships in the fourth wave. Not only do we get the four new sculpts but also not one special but three. I'm guessing that some of those are the exact same sculpts (as Agamemnon might be a special of the British 64s) but I do hope that Santissima is a new sculpt and one of those.

See, I told you there was still life in the old "Sails".

Jonas, what three new Specials are you talking about? Santissima Trinidad's a don't-know-when, I've heard nothing about it starting development though I've been data-mining in advance to try to smooth the way if/when it goes forward. Agamemnon is problematic--which design of 64 we're getting is still an open question, and Aggie is from one of the "less common" designs, more closely related to a French design than any other British 64. Bonhomme Richard isn't a Special Pack, we had to resort to some trickery to get her into the game at all but she and four related French EIM/warships are one of the SKU's of the "regular" Wave 4. (Sorry, I tried--BHR is one of a group of nine near-sisters designed by Groignard, and I had proposed to do three French SKU's with one side as EIM and one as navalized warship each, then a BHR Special with John Paul Jones crew-deck. :( But better a BHR and four EIM's than nothing, though, right?)

[TexaS]

I guess it was my counting to eleven that was faulty. Four ships, double sided cards, makes eight. That leaves three outside the "normal" wave. It could have been specials of the same sculpts but I still don't want to drop the idea of Santissima looming on the horizon. She is one of the most iconic ships of her time.

I do agree on the Agamemnon but as Nelson's favourite ship I think she would be worthy of a special and she managed to be in many famous battles.

[Diamondback]

Gotcha. For clarity:

3 sculpts, @ 3 SKUs each, @ 2 different names/stats per = 18
1 sculpt, 2 SKUs @ 2 different names/stats per = 22
Same sculpt, 1 SKU "special treatment" = 23 main set

So Wave 4 is still a 12-SKU release like Waves 1, 2 and forthcoming 3 before it. :) You'll see more when Rob announces the wave and explains what we had to do to make BHR work, and even though we're sailing into "What Might Have Been" waters I think--I HOPE--you guys'll like it.

[Bligh]

Thanks again DB. Even I was starting to get confused with all these posts.
Rob.

[Herkybird]

I will just be happy if we get new ships that are compatible with the already released models!

[Capn Duff]

Sorry what is a SKU?

So Are we intimating Wave 4 is the Bon Homme Richard and 3 East Indiamen?
I for one hope not, I can understand one East Indiaman, dont understand why we must have BHR, especially with so many other ships that did fight in the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars.
Looks like Ill be saving quite a bit of cash in this wave

[TexaS]

I'm not sure but SKU to my knowledge is a unique item for sale.

This would translate as Swan (107A) is a sculpt and a SKU while Alligator (107B) is the same sculpt but a new SKU.

Then we have Fairy which still is 107A but another ship on the back side of Swan.


This would make wave 4 contain a Tonnant-class, a British 64 (not sure which one), one I forget and the East Indiaman as sculpts lets say a British and two French 80 gun Tonnant-class ships, two British and one captured French version of the 64, another ship sculpt and the merchantman in for example a British navy, an Honourable East India Company and an extra version which is Bon Homme Richard. All but the last having two unique ship names to turn over to switch between.

[Capn Duff]

I see, thanks for the explanation of SKU.
For the rest of wave4 I must have miss-understood then, thanks again for your clarification.

[Diamondback]

Sorry what is a SKU?

So Are we intimating Wave 4 is the Bon Homme Richard and 3 East Indiamen?
I for one hope not, I can understand one East Indiaman, dont understand why we must have BHR, especially with so many other ships that did fight in the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars.
Looks like Ill be saving quite a bit of cash in this wave

Two double-sided French EIMs (four names and stats total) and BHR on the same sculpt.

Tonnant/Bucentaure: 1 double-sided British, probably 2 double-sided French (don't know of any Spanish reflags off top of head)
British 64: Easiest to reflag is an Ardent (Agamemnon's group), but Intrepid and Inflexible were more numerous and active. If Ardent we can figure 2 British/1 French (bonus, Ardent is a straight copy of a French design which the RN almost made a clean sweep of capturing), if one of the I's my gut is 3 British, again all double-sided.
Spanish frigate, probably Mahonesa: 2 Spanish, 1 British, again double-sided.
French Groignard 900-ton 40-60-ish-gun EIM: 2 French double-sides plus BHR. (Still looking for a British EIM of similar size and large number of "pass-fors," too.)

You Brits are spoiled with tons of iconic ships from the era... for us Americans, not so much, and what we do have are harder to get so we have to look for close relatives and "slipstream" in with them. Don't begrudge us what pittance we get, mmmkay? :P

[TexaS]

The only problem I have with wave 4 is waiting. (Now... When it arrives it will probably be financially.)

[Herkybird]

You Brits are spoiled with tons of iconic ships from the era... for us Americans, not so much, and what we do have are harder to get so we have to look for close relatives and "slipstream" in with them. Don't begrudge us what pittance we get, mmmkay? :P

We have no problem with Ares producing models for non British customers! If our positions were reversed, I, too would be clamouring for whatever ships I could get for my home nation!

[Capn Duff]

Two double-sided French EIMs (four names and stats total) and BHR on the same sculpt.

Tonnant/Bucentaure: 1 double-sided British, probably 2 double-sided French (don't know of any Spanish reflags off top of head)
British 64: Easiest to reflag is an Ardent (Agamemnon's group), but Intrepid and Inflexible were more numerous and active. If Ardent we can figure 2 British/1 French (bonus, Ardent is a straight copy of a French design which the RN almost made a clean sweep of capturing), if one of the I's my gut is 3 British, again all double-sided.
Spanish frigate, probably Mahonesa: 2 Spanish, 1 British, again double-sided.
French Groignard 900-ton 40-60-ish-gun EIM: 2 French double-sides plus BHR. (Still looking for a British EIM of similar size and large number of "pass-fors," too.)

You Brits are spoiled with tons of iconic ships from the era... for us Americans, not so much, and what we do have are harder to get so we have to look for close relatives and "slipstream" in with them. Don't begrudge us what pittance we get, mmmkay? :P

I stand admonished, I missunderstood wave 4 completely as mentioned.
So can you tell me what SKU and EIM acronyms mean as I am not familiar with the terms. I thought EIM was East Indiaman.
My dissapointment with BHR was due to you saying that it had to be tweaked to be included when there were other ships that were as iconic, if you prefer, but not included that would not need said tweak, but I suppose you are correct we have a lot of ships to look at and the fledgling USN not so much at this time.
So I apologise for my terseness and join me in the wardroom for a Port or two.

[Herkybird]

Chris, you are not alone, I too thought EIM was East Indiaman, and I dont know what SKU is either. I am assuming still that BHR is Bonhomme Richard!?

[Bligh]

We obviously need to start a movement for plain understandable language gentlemen without abreviations IMHO.
Bligh.

[KDz]

Thank you for the report DB. Can't wait for official news/dates/prices (I fear that it will hurt my wallet).

[TexaS]

Some googling revealed that SKU is stock keeping unit or Skyros Island National Airport.

I would still guess East Indiaman for EIM. Not only the British had them.

When talking about our own national ships I would use such hardihood to suggest Dristigheten or the bravery to suggest Tapperheten...

[Diamondback]

EIM = East Indiaman.
SKU = Stock Keeping Unit, a unique identifier for each distinct product and service that can be purchased in business. (per Wikipedia) Sort of like a UPC bar-code, but not the same system.
BHR = personal shorthand on Bonhomme Richard, ditto QAR (more widely accepted) re Queen Anne's Revenge. I'm not quite able to tell you what we did for the fix, but at least one side of BHR will be the ship as she fought at Flamborough Head. (I will note, though, that her Achilles heel was the number of guns Jones could round up for her, he'd planned the refit to be much more powerful--if my read is right, had he gotten his way BHR would have been the first American ship-of-the-line, albeit a very small one akin to the German WWII "pocket battleships".)

Ares SKU's for minis work as:
three or four letters - line ID

• WGF = Wings of Glory First [World War]
• WGS = Wings of Glory Second [World War]
• SGN = Sails of Glory Napoleonic
• WGAA = Wings of Glory Aerodrome Accessories, items commissioned from Keith by Ares for Kickstarters (have their own uniqu numbering system

first number - component within the line

• 0 = Starter Sets, Rules Packs and similar
• 1 = basic miniatures (single-seats WGF/WGS; standard ship packs SGN)
• 2 = varies by line (WGF/WGS medium planes; SGN Special Packs)
• 3 = varies by line (WGF/WGS Special Packs)
• 4 = reserved for future development
• 5 = accessories (mats, Wings peg packs, Sails terrain packs, damage bags and counter sets)
• 6 = things like the WGF Rookie Pack combo offer
• 7 = promo packs (WGF Aces decks)
• KS = Kickstarter Exclusive variant

next two numerical digits = specific sculpt/package within category
letter suffix = specific figure (sculpt and paint scheme)

And then occasionally you'll see an additional suffix on checklists and similar documents prepared by me of a "-1", "-2", "-A", "-B" or similar which identifies the specific card/stat-set from that package. For example, SGNKS04B refers to the "reverse side" card and log from the HMS Bellerophon Kickstarter pack, or WGF001A-1 would refer to the Richthofen triplane packed in the "Version A" WGF Duel Pack.

[Herkybird]

Er...Thanks!

[Capn Duff]

Got it, thanks DB

[Naharaht]

Thank you for the explanation, Diamondback.

[Union Jack]

I think I got it. Not as confusing as Japanese WW2 aircraft numbering system.

[Bligh]

I think I got it. Not as confusing as Japanese WW2 aircraft numbering system.

And I get confused over which Ratlines to order!
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Personally, had Rob asked me, I would have made SGN more consistent with Wings by having 1xx be small-box ships (frigates/unrateds/maybe two-deck cruisers if they fit), 2xx be SOL's and 3xx Specials. Otherwise, SKU by number of full gun-decks with the 400's as Specials--I'm not at liberty to say what, but WG_4xx was set aside for something that Rob really wanted to do for us but hasn't been able to find a way to make the cost-benefit work for everybody.

Addition to prior info: the French East Indiaman sculpt is based on Jean Boudriot's forensic reconstruction of Bonhomme Richard--when the miniature comes out, I'll post a list of the alterations to backdate her into her former life as Duc de Duras or accurize her into her sisters. Big ones off the bat are that BHR had her bulwarks raised and her quarterdeck extended to wrap around the mizzenmast.