Not real impressed with the ARES site. If this is addressed somewhere else, let me know. What are the US ships or comparable models currently available in the game?
US Ships.......
Not real impressed with the ARES site. If this is addressed somewhere else, let me know. What are the US ships or comparable models currently available in the game?
I'll show you what a 24 pounder can do............
Try this thread:
http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...highlight=1797
It's sad to say but there are only two.
Interestingly enough Langton's Miniatures only has 4 named US ships. We really weren't a major naval power compared to some. I've never researched the merchant fleet numbers though? Perhaps those counts were higher for US ships?
Last edited by Nightmoss; 06-17-2015 at 09:49. Reason: typo
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
We might not have been a major power in comparison, but that does not automatically mean there isn't a market. As we have discussed before, it would be nice to have ships of sufficient type to do War of 1812.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Very true. I wonder if Ares has seen a shift in the SoG market or if it's still primarily US participation and support? I have this feeling there may be growing support outside of the US, but only Ares knows for sure.Originally Posted by 7eat51
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
The question is, would the U.S. market make a run of U.S. ships profitable? There are so many directions one could go with respect to the Age of Sail, that I doubt a company like Ares could be able to please everyone, but if sufficient market demand is present for a line, I hope they will listen. Same thing we've been saying since the KS.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Right now, we only have two SKU's for three ships total--though I will note that there is a possibility of *maybe* having another in Wave 4; do not hold your breath, as it's only In Discussion and there are a lot of hurdles that have to be cleared for it to happen. Like we gotta get through Wave Three first, for one... but I can say that *if* the concepts I've seen for Wave Four come to pass those four sculpts are going to mean a lot of really excited people around here.
[Mike Ditka voice] "And that's all I got to say about that." *mike drop*
From what I am seeing with new models and a fleet rules patch to the system, all indications are that Ares is heading towards trying to create yet another large ship, fleet action system. U. S. ships just don't fit in.
I don't know how others feel but my patience is about at its limit. I might not mind so much if Ares would just lay their cards out on the table and just let us know where they are heading with this game. I then would not mind the wait if they were going to produce things that interested me or would be appreciative that I could move on to something else if not.
I don't know whether Ares quite knows where they are going yet, and they may be taking tentative steps in a few different directions
Obviously they started thinking that a straight replay of the Wings sales and distribution approach would work with Sails. What they seem to have realized in the last 6 months or so is that Sails is a different product. It has a lot of potential and the models get people excited (KS, awards, etc.), but the Wings approach needs to be shaken up because it doesn't create enough incentives to buy more ships.
I question whether they've firmly settled on what strategy(s) they will take in response to that realization though. My sense is they are still brainstorming and trying stuff out...
I think this is where Ares is at, but it doesn't help folks who are trying to decide whether or not they're going to stay invested in the game. I'd love to ask them some direct questions at Gen Con, but I suspect they might not know the answers? It's been stated that they play their cards close to their chest, which is pretty accurate. Heck, they wont even tell folks what the next wave box color is going to be!I question whether they've firmly settled on what strategy(s) they will take in response to that realization though. My sense is they are still brainstorming and trying stuff out...
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Part of the reason they, and we on the research team, do that is that there's a lot of room for things they want to do to go sideways between concept and release, like we may not be able to find good plans to draw from--for example I've been lobbying hard for Bonhomme Richard but the only good plan that exists is a copyrighted forensic reconstruction based on several near-sisters. Similarly, paint schemes are frequently conjecture based on eyewitness descriptions and contemporary paintings; we generally can't be certain of a lot here.
We don't want to announce something BIG, get your hopes up and then trigger mass disappointment if we turn out unable to deliver.
Believe me, I'm as frustrated by it as you are--and doubly so given that I get to see some exciting news that I can't share with the rest of the class! Believe me, they're trying, and David and I and several others are nudging and prodding and doing what we can where we can... a large part of it's the cash flows to finance production and what the market seems willing to support. Let's face it, we're a loud and vocal niche but we *are* still a niche.
One of the problems is that players might move sideways out the door.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Wow, I must have found the "Hot Button"...........
I'll show you what a 24 pounder can do............
Matt, you'll find there are more than a few hot buttons here abouts. It's how we occupy our time in between battles, wave releases and game conventions.
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
Buttons, yes, but unlike what I have seen on Boardgamegeek, no buttheads. At least folk here are civil, if not downright friendly.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
I agree. I would love to have the American frigates that fought in the Mediterranean. I would also like to play ships commanded by J. Paul Jones, and even the one that Franklin commanded during an engagement of the coast of Scotland, if memory serves me well.
Maybe we should write ARES games; In fact, I'm gonna write something to this effect on their Facebook page.
Arma Virumque Cano
Please let us know the contents if you receive a response.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
There was a reason for this: The country at the time had only existed for ~35 years -- and even less if one discounts the years spent under the ineffectual Articles of Confederation.
There were a lot of US merchant ships (which is part of what led up to the mess in 1812, as well as the Barbary Coast campaigns) -- some 1,000,000 tons by 1810; generally held as the largest "neutral" merchant fleet of the period. Unfortunately, nozzleheads like Jefferson and Madison never quite twigged to the idea "if you go somewhere, even if it's just to trade, You Are Involved In Local Politics"; so were badly out-of-position for dealing with problems like the Barbary Corsairs and British at-sea impressment.
Not sure I would call Jefferson and Madison a "nozzlehead." Mistakes on the international scene aside, they did have "successfully started first successful large federal republican government in history" on there resumes...
First successful large Republic ?
Roman Republic, lasted from 509 to 27 BC was pretty successful I believe.
I have read this thread with interest and with a little smile I must admit.
Yes only two American ships currently, but surely the name of the game suggests why, Sails of Glory ( Napoleonic Wars) apart from the War of 1812 I don't believe the U.S. Was involved in this to any extent, also at this time as pointed out already , as a nation the US was only 30 odd years old and had, correct me if I'm wrong, no SoL and a few Ocean going frigates, the rest of the navy being coastal brigs and lake craft.
Before turning to the fledgling USN there are a number of other Navies that have, shall we say, a bigger stake in the running for Ares. Ie the Dutch Navy, Russian Navy, Danish Navy and the Swedish Navy.
This is not to say no U.S. frigates at all but there are a few other ships that we could do with first. Personally I would love to see HMS Temeraire a 98 gun 2nd rate, but unlikely to see as there were only three of the class and may not be feasable.
I posed this concern to ARES on their facebook page. They said that they are planning on producing more American ships for the game, including one commanded by one J. Paul Jones, Esq.
"
Myself and a group of fellow "Sails of Glory" players commented on how much we would like for ARES to extend the amount of American navy ships that the game currently has. Since you've already introduced the USS Constitution, other ships would add nicely to our game. In fact, ships commanded by John Paul Jones and the Revolutionary American Navy, however small, would make a great addition to the game!
11Like · Comment
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Ares Games likes this.
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Ares Games We have the little ship-sloop (SGN107C Thorn/Atalanta) in our range already, but we will add more US ships, including Jones' Bonhonne Richard, in the future.
Last edited by garchilajr; 06-19-2015 at 04:39.
Arma Virumque Cano
Note I said "first successful large federal" republic. The Roman Republic was never federal. Moreover, I would debate that it was ever a "large" republic, or at least a "large republic" for any length of time. The Roman republic institutions were more or less limited to the city of Rome for most of its existence. Rome to not control large tracts of territory outside its immediate vicinity until the decades before the Roman Civil War, and that form of government was never extended to those conquered territories. On the other hand, it was in near immediate aftermath of granting citizenship to to the residents of its Italian client city-states (after the Social Wars), that the Roman Republic started to come apart at the seams.
I imagine we're looking at two years, at the earliest. If Ares starts pumping out ships, period, I think many of us would be more patient awaiting preferred sculpts.
Thanks for contacting them, Gustavo.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Oh well, that's one less secret for us to keep
Yeah, I kind of wondered about that comment!?Oh well, that's one less secret for us to keep
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
In fairness, one would rather guess that, if humanly possible, Bon Homme Richard would be released. It's up there with Constitution and Victory as famous ships, at least for English speaking players.Oh well, that's one less secret for us to keep
I think comparing the Bon Homme Richard and HMS Victory in fame would be more than a tad exaggerated.
Throughout history certain ships have attained legendary status, HMS Victory, Bismark, The Argo, Titanic, USS Yorktown etc etc, it takes an awful lot to break into that group of ships.
On the downside, the cat's out of the bag. On the upside, the confirmation of BHR *should* give you overeager sharks some chum for the waters...
HOWEVER, there are BIG ways the BHR project can go wrong. There is no second American-flag version of the ship, and all of her eight sisters only flew French colors. There were some bigger possibly-related EIM's that the French Navy took into service as 64's, but I'm not sure how viable they are as a stretch.
What I *personally* would do if Roberto handed me the keys to the bus on this particular basic sculpt would be something like this:
1. Three SKU's of French Groignard 900-ton East Indiamen, at least one each under French Compagnie des Indes and French Navy flags.
1a. I would consider just doing three G900s, each having a Merchant and Militarized side with corresponding stats changes on the log, as another possible option to expand use of the basic sculpt.
2. I would do Bonhomme Richard at the same time as a Special Pack, with her enlarged bulwarks being added, and fill in the back side with Speculative stats for the ship as JPJ wanted to outfit her had he been able to round up enough guns. (The engineering changes he made seem to imply that he wanted to make her a 60-gun monster.)
HOWEVER, I'm not driving the bus. See WHY I say there's a lot that can go wrong and we don't like to make announcements until things are well underway and committed, with a good bead on what it'll take to see 'em through?
Good point well made Steve- looking at this period surely the Victory stands alone when it comes to fame, and the fact that she is still with us in all her glory only adds to that. Obviously the fact that she was Nelson's flagship has a lot to do with it. There can surely not be many more famous ship's captains than Horatio Nelson?I think comparing the Bon Homme Richard and HMS Victory in fame would be more than a tad exaggerated.
Throughout history certain ships have attained legendary status, HMS Victory, Bismark, The Argo, Titanic, USS Yorktown etc etc, it takes an awful lot to break into that group of ships.
Very true also Chris. Nelson is up there with Buzz Aldrin, Winston Churchill, Julius Caesar, Alexander the great, etc etc. Legendary characters in their own lifetimes and forever onward to be sure.
Men who by their actions changed not only their own nations but the world as a whole.
Unfortunately, I have seen a trend toward placing everyone on the same pedestal in our culture, where people are declared brave or a hero, for example, when, traditionally, those words were reserved for people who did significant things for others in the face of extreme danger. Personally, I think it a loss when certain constructs or words lose their traditional meaning, their traditional import. Once lost, we might not have those categories to utilize in our thinking, valuing, or growth.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
I think the nail was hit on the head with the name of the game. SoG Napoleonic Wars implies the nations involved in those wars and the USA just wasn't really. Personally, as an American, I don't feel left out of a game that is centered around a war that wasn't really ours. The other thing to consider is that this game follows in the footsteps of WoG and we can look to that game for a little inspiration. Certainly the US market is going strong (and I'm doing my damnedest to encourage it) and it would be smart to put out US ships eventually. The best way to do this is to do a set about a different war (like what they did with WoG, hence why I mentioned it a second ago). The war of 1812 might not be a bad idea, or even the Civil War. I would love to see a game with Civil War era ironclads in the mix. In a way, they might have shot themselves in the foot a little by calling it "Sails" of glory. "Seas" of glory would have opened up more avenues for future expansion as we could have even gone as far as WWII battleships. For what it's worth, I really love the Royal Navy at this time and find this particular war and the ships that fought in it fascinating. I am quite happy to sail my little British ships to victory unless I get stuck playing the French in which case I will be happy sailing those guys to victory.
I rather think you would find a lot more name recognition with John Paul Jones and the Bonhomme Richard than either the USS Yorktown or the Argo, at least on the American side of the lake.I think comparing the Bon Homme Richard and HMS Victory in fame would be more than a tad exaggerated.
Throughout history certain ships have attained legendary status, HMS Victory, Bismark, The Argo, Titanic, USS Yorktown etc etc, it takes an awful lot to break into that group of ships.
The War of 1812 was fought in parallel with the last few years of the Napoleonic War, and, on the RN side, involved more or less the same ships, so it would be quite natural for a Napoleonic naval game to include the American ships of that period. As for the earlier periods, fair enough, except that Ares is of course already indicating their intention to take the game back at least to the American Revolutionary War.
I just looked at Ares homepage and they indicate that the "First Series" of Sails of Glory is set in the Napoleonic Age. Other series most likely will come before? I think their Age of Sail period goes back to 1650 if memory serves?
"It's not the towering sails, but the unseen wind that moves a ship."
–English Proverb
[QUOTE=NimitsTexan;49433]I rather think you would find a lot more name recognition with John Paul Jones and the Bonhomme Richard than either the USS Yorktown or the Argo, at least on the American side of the lake.[QUOTE]
Im shocked that the USS Yorktown is less famous in the US! She is effectively the US version of Victory in her acheivement in the most important naval battle of your history, and still in living memory of a remaining few veterans!
I agree with Eric, legendary is a word banded around too easily these days, and its meaning can get diluted.
The ships i mentioned will be remembered long from now because the books written of their achievements are classics, i dont think the BHR will ever attain that status worldwide and hasnt yet either.
Its a sad indictment of the US history education system if true that the Yorktown is not afforded the recognition she deserves in comparison to other ships of your history. Her performance at Midway and her Hollywood style punch drunk end could be likened to a Rocky movie final fight sequence. She truly is a legend deserving of future US generations veneration.
Last edited by Popsical; 06-20-2015 at 02:25.
Steve, if you think lack of knowledge about Yorktown is an indictment, I shudder to think what you would say if you knew the extent of the lack of knowledge about most anything of U.S. history, let alone world history. What passes as education today is so far removed from what we had in grade and high school. I am only pushing 52, but in my lifetime, I have seen a dramatic shift. I teach at the college and graduate level, and it is amazing just how unprepared folks are for higher education, and how mis-informed they are about the world. I was a horrible student when I was younger, but I knew I was horrible; I was able to tell the difference between my performance and the performance of my classmates as well as what was being taught; I simply didn't care. Folks, today, think they deserve "A"s simply for registering for a course; the standards have changed.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Honestly, ole boy, even among those historically aware, Yorktown is probably not the most famous of the WWII carriers; her sisters Enterprise and Hornet get much more name recognition, and probably even the Sara and Lady Lex get more books written about them. You are the first person I have ever seen list it with Victory, Titanic, etc. I suppose in the end it is all subjective.
That said, I would argue that Jones/BHR's contribution to the American Revolutionary War effort (providing a great morale boost) was just as significant as was Yorktown's for WWII. War is, after all, all about morale. Least ways, back when writing and teaching about actual people and events in history (as opposed to "movements") was still done regularly, John Paul Jones/BHR were the subject of more than their share of books and well known by American school children. The "I have not yet begun to fight" attributed to Jones is only slightly less famous than Lawrence's now semi-official USN motto "Don't give up the ship."
I think perhaps here we are both reflecting the biases of our geography. The American Revolution (and by extension the story of the BHR) was understandably never as popular or inspiring in the UK as it was in the US.
I will not contest the sorry state of historical education in America, but I am not sure, from what I read on internet forums in general, that it is much better in Western Europe.
Last edited by NimitsTexan; 06-20-2015 at 08:32.
From a non US citizens perspective the Yorktown became the ship that quite possibly won Midway and thus turned the tide in the Pacific. Through this it helped shape a conflict between the two greatest navies of their day. Victory did like wise at Trafalgar with Nelson. That is why i would compare them in some respects. The BHR cannot claim such an accolade, nor can many ships in history. Your quite right about history being taught in GB at least, its a bloody shambles.
Us residents of blighty have possibly the richest and most diverse history of any nation yet.
So at school for our exams we studied the cuban missile crisis and Vietnam!!!
My son has just finished his first year of college and studied Stalin and the black american equality chase thru the last century!!!
To me this is utterly appalling in its lack of relevence to young children growing up in a country that has no direct connection to these subjects and which has so much of historical import to be lauded and learnt and be proud of.
I spoke to a friends daughter who is studying at college about the latest Afghanistan conflict, she at least knew of the Soviet defeat in said country.
However she was totally unaware that the British had been defeated there previously.
A TV show over here had two University students competing on it, they were given a map of the world with ten nations borders outlined on it.
They were then given ten nation names and told to put them in the correct places.
They placed China on Canada, Russia on Australia and most stunningly stupid of all the UK on New Zealand because... they had the map upside down!!! The mind boggles that you can get to University and not know where you live!
Last edited by Popsical; 06-20-2015 at 08:28.
Weird thread. If you are only interested in US ships., then you are not a fan of the age of sail. You are a fan of the US. People who play Sails of Glory tend to be eurocentric. Most people on this forum, when they think of a pirate ship, think of the Black Pearl from the Disney movie, or Queen Anne's Revenge, or any of a number of western style sloops and such. But Piracy's "golden moment" surely occurred in the Orient. From the late 17th century all the way through to the mid 19th century, Chinese pirates numbered in the thousands. What sails of glory fan wouldn't want a sculpt of this beauty?
To read more about Chinese pirates in the age of sail, here's a link: https://www.thechinastory.org/ritp/chinese-pirates/
In 1955, a documentary about a junk crossing the ocean into San Francisco Bay was made with 5 men on board, none of whom knew how to sail! She is being preserved after long neglect. Here's a link: http://www.chinesejunkpreservation.com
There are so many fascinating stories and such a rich and varied history of sail around the world, that grumbling about "not enough US ships" seems petty.
I can see your point Kenneth, the US was a bit part player in the latter age of sail, she only began to seriously impact on world affairs at the end of WW1.
A game relating to ships of the twentieth century would better portray US naval achievements, admirals and ships.
Ps. although petty maybe an extreme word for this thread.
Last edited by Popsical; 06-20-2015 at 08:50.
I am not sure who, here, is only a fan of U.S. ships. I, also, do not consider those who want more U.S. ships as being petty, no more so that I consider critiques of SoG mechanics, scale, etc., as being petty. Just because someone advocates for a particular U.S. sculpt, or more U.S. ships in general, does not mean that person, or persons, would not heartily welcome other nationalities to the collection.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
I beg to differ. If what is most important to you about a new ship sculpt is the flag flying off the mizzen, then you're being petty. Beating the drum for more US ships seems to be the national pastime around here. As far as the Bon Homme Richard goes, it lasted only 7 months and fought in only one engagement against the Serapis and was sunk. It was a 5th rate frigate. Hardly the pride of anybody's collection. John Paul Jones himself was a very controversial person. He burnt every bridge he ever crossed, and was constantly feuding with everyone around him. His own officers accused him of raping a 12 year old girl. He left England to avoid being tried by the admiralty for flogging a man to death. Not exactly a stirling example of a US naval officer.
Its a game with little toy plastic ships. Arguably the whole thing is "petty" in the grand scheme of things.
However, it is definitely a bit arrogant to think one can determine which methods players use to engage with the game (such as, in this case, identifying with the ships of his own country) are "acceptable" or "valuable" and which are "petty." Having affection for one's country and national history is not a character defect, and liking a ship for the flag it flies is no worse than liking a ship because it was at the Nile or the First of June.
Wasn't the Bon Homme Richard a converted East Indiaman from France? Maybe she'll come out when Ares sculpts its merchant ships.I've got no connection with Ares, but just saying.
Here's hoping,
Bob.
Arrogant, eh? How dare I presume to judge how you "engage with the game" based upon what you say. Don't get your panties in a twist. I'm not looking down my nose at anybody. I just think the constant clamoring for more US ships seems petty compared to what else Ares could release. I didn't say you specifically were being petty for wanting more US ships. I want more US ships. I want more of everything. Lets get a grip here.
This is a really good example of the status of BHR compared to Yorktown.
Yorktown embodied the best in the US navy and the US itself in WW2, late to the battle but once there tough, resilient and determined to fight till the end no matter the damage even when faced with personal loss.
If i were an American i could think of little more to be proud of than this fantastic ship that gave far far more than anyone could ever have asked.
Sure the Enterprise and Hornet were a fundamental part of that victory, but the Yorktown performed above and beyond expectations and should be lauded by your nation very rightly.
You're right, Steve, the Bon Homme Richard didn't last that long, sort of like Le Swiftsure, what was it that she did to make it into the Ares Hall of Fame? However, Bon Homme Richard did rattle a few cages during her short career as a fighting ship. The coasts of England just didn't feel so safe anymore. Then she came across Serapis and 41 other ships. Ok, the American fleet had 16 ships. John Paul Jones took on Serapis, I think it was HMS Serapis. Anyway, at the end of the scuffle Bon Homme Richard sank and Serapis was an American warship.I think comparing the Bon Homme Richard and HMS Victory in fame would be more than a tad exaggerated.
Throughout history certain ships have attained legendary status, HMS Victory, Bismark, The Argo, Titanic, USS Yorktown etc etc, it takes an awful lot to break into that group of ships.
You're right, HMS Victory overshadows our beloved little ship, but the American little ship does stack-up better than about half of Ares' picks for sculpts. Why don't we have The Argo in our game?
The point is that not all ships have HMS Victory's marvelous career, some are just ordinary work horses for their country's maritime concerns and if Ares honored its choices of sculpts because of their fame and contributions, then don't you think Victory should have been first?
I love England's history and I see my country's history as an extension of yours You just struck a nerve. Friends?
Sorry about the rant,
Bob.
Last edited by Bos'n; 06-20-2015 at 12:16. Reason: Correcting typing errors
This nation owes a huge debt to the crews of both ships. They will always be in our collective memories. But putting them up on a pedestal and not allowing a dissenting opinion is not the American Way. Don't confuse dissent with disrespect. In this country, all of our heroes have feet of clay. It makes their accomplishments even more heroic.This is a really good example of the status of BHR compared to Yorktown.
Yorktown embodied the best in the US navy and the US itself in WW2, late to the battle but once there tough, resilient and determined to fight till the end no matter the damage even when faced with personal loss.
If i were an American i could think of little more to be proud of than this fantastic ship that gave far far more than anyone could ever have asked.
Sure the Enterprise and Hornet were a fundamental part of that victory, but the Yorktown performed above and beyond expectations and should be lauded by your nation very rightly.
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