Hammerhead, Newark 2015

[Capn Duff]

Yesterday I attended the above show as part of the Aerodrome, we had three table booked and put on all three games, WW1 WoG, WW2 WoG and SGN.
The show was purely traders and participation games, so I thought it would be ideal to showcase the game.
Unfortunately that did not turn out to be the case.
Both the Arial games had visitors all day, however my table only had around 6 people who wanted to play and see what the game was about.
I did spend most of the day explaining the mechanics and showing examples of game play, but the majority just didnt want to play.
Those that did, were all enthusiastic, a couple of which were not naval gamers at all, in fact one group were an elderly couple who wanted something together and thought this was the thing for them. Unfortunately there was only one trader selling and he had only 1 starter set.
So although people who did play enjoyed it, I couldn't help much in the way of getting them a starter set except to say go on line and search :(

Anyway, here are a couple of pics I took of the day.

The table set up ready





Next in answer to a few questions of Crossing the T and ship handleing, I put on a little demo of three Sol v three Sol

The British Sqn HMS Spartiate, HMS Resolution & HMS Bellerephon


The French Squadron Le Berwich, Commerce de Bordeaux and Le Swiftsure


The Sqns approached in battle line, the British had the wind advantage ( yes blatant bias on my part )





First Broadsides




The British Cross




As I said , it was only a quick demo to show movement, and firing, the group enjoyed watching but then wandered away without playing, except for one gentleman who stayed for a game, and later returned for another.
Hopefully there were two who were interested in joining the forum so we will see.

This is now the fourth demo of the game I have put on at 4 different and quite prestigious shows here in the UK.
People who are interested, all like the game and like the mechanics and the models. Unfortunately it does not seem to have the stopping and grasping power of the WoG WW1 to a large extent.
Not too sure if Ill put on any more games, as I would like to play also, I will keep the game as I quite like it and my local group enjoy playing also.

[Mycenius]

Nice Post Chris - public participation games are always a challenge and always an unknown quantity - you never know just what's going to happen and where the interest will be...

[Mycenius]

Chris - is all your terrain home made - or are things like the Lighthouse from something like Langton's 1/1200th building range?

[Capn Duff]

Hi John,
I cannot take any credit for the rocks and Lighthouse, they were loaned for the day by a member of the aerodrome doing WW1, I do know he picked them up of ebay, but that's all I'm afraid

[Mycenius]

Thanks Chris!

(Thought there might have been a suitable terrain manufacturer I hadn't come across for 1/1000th buildings)

[Nightmoss]

Thanks for the post, photos and explanation of the show. I guess I'm not too surprised that WGF and WGS beat out SGN. It's a time period closer to our generation, has more flash in the airplane sculpts and may be faster to pick up play. In that context if Star Wars X-Wing was anywhere at the show I expect it was mobbed?

Thanks for taking your time to promote the game, even if the reception at these shows seems less than what you'd like.

[7eat51]

Well done, Chris.

In addition to Jim's comments, I think WoG appears less intimidating to folks - planes seem easier to understand.

[David Manley]

Chris' experiences unfortunately mirror my own, having run SGN games at a few shows in the UK over the years. The punters who have stopped to play have enjoyed it, but they are relatively few, especially when compared with the droves that usually appear when WGF is on the table.

[7eat51]

Why do you think this is so, David?

The same was true at Origins.

[John Paul]

Would it work better if you touted the game as WoG at sea???

The basic concepts are the same in terms of playing the game maneuver cards, blasting away at your opponent, and trying to come out on top! The main difference being it's ships instead of planes, and it takes place on the ocean instead of over it!. Besides the ships are a little tougher then their aerial counter parts!

[David Manley]

Air wargaming is a niche subject, but naval is, by comparison, a small crevice within a niche. So I can see why, just from a general viewpoint, a naval game would have less appeal that an air game. that has definitely been my impression from running demo and parti games at shows for the last 25 years or so. And the pace of an air combat game is obviously much greater than naval which adds to its appeal in a show/convention environment. Plus, as far as WGF/SGN are concerned the former is much quicker and easier to get into than the latter - it takes no more than a minute or so to explain the core rules and then you are away in the clouds with your hair on fire chasing the Hun. As a result (in the UK at least) it also makes it easier to accommodate a game fought to a conclusion in an hour or less (an important consideration for show games in the UK given the different style of event). It makes it quite amenable to being used in some cases as a creche, for younger gamers to be dropped off for an hour or so by their parents whilst they head off to the bar - although I must say I have seen quite a few daddy/child teams taking to the skies. "Ships with Sticks" just doesn't seem to have the same appeal.

[Naharaht]

Well done, Chris! It is difficult persuading people to stay and take part.

[Nightmoss]

Ironically, the Sails of Glory Facebook page just broke 2,000 'Likes'. The Wings of Glory FB page only has 1,330. Clearly not a indication of general support and interest, but curious just the same.

Maybe Ares or someone needs to formulate a "Basic" basic game that parallels the quick and easy way to start playing like WGF/WGS?

[Loki 13]

Very nice pictures. thanks

[Lord Ramage]

Hello Chris,
My name is Tony and I am one of the people you demonstrated Sails of Glory to at Hammerhead. I have acquired a copy of the starter game from my local store "Lost Ark" of Stevenage. I am busy reading the rule book and examining all the bits. I am probably not going to be able to start playing this week end, but hope to get into it shortly thereafter.

I am a long time fan of the Ramage books by the late Dudley Pope, hence my user name. It will probably take me a while to work out how to use this site and observe the correct etiquette, so please be patient with me. Thank you for sharing your time with me at Hammerhead.

[Coog]

Welcome aboard Tony! You will get the hang of using the site in no time.

[John Paul]

Welcome aboard Tony, you'll learn the ropes in no time, so drop anchor and enjoy!!

[John Paul]

Air wargaming is a niche subject, but naval is, by comparison, a small crevice within a niche. So I can see why, just from a general viewpoint, a naval game would have less appeal that an air game. that has definitely been my impression from running demo and parti games at shows for the last 25 years or so. And the pace of an air combat game is obviously much greater than naval which adds to its appeal in a show/convention environment. Plus, as far as WGF/SGN are concerned the former is much quicker and easier to get into than the latter - it takes no more than a minute or so to explain the core rules and then you are away in the clouds with your hair on fire chasing the Hun. As a result (in the UK at least) it also makes it easier to accommodate a game fought to a conclusion in an hour or less (an important consideration for show games in the UK given the different style of event). It makes it quite amenable to being used in some cases as a creche, for younger gamers to be dropped off for an hour or so by their parents whilst they head off to the bar - although I must say I have seen quite a few daddy/child teams taking to the skies. "Ships with Sticks" just doesn't seem to have the same appeal.

David,

Your point is well taken regarding the appeal of air combat vs. a typical naval fight! My thought is that most naval games in this period that players have seen at shows in the past have generally been the large fleet battles using 1/1200 scale ships. The models alone often seem daunting to assemble and paint let alone play with them. I know from my own experiences the typical game starts with two long battle lines that barely move over the course of the game with lots of dice rolling for ship on ship action once they close to gun range. The game seems to be almost a sleeper in comparison to an air combat game! With players counting hexes for movement, figuring ranges, and such. However, this is where SoG can gain the edge, in a way, as it uses cards for movement like WoG, range sticks, not very much die rolling, and damage chits instead of cards! The selling point can be if they've played WoG they already have the basics of playing SoG! The tactics are nearly the same with the only difference is you only need to think in two dimensions vice the three dimensions of air combat! I would think that approach could work!

[Coog]

If Ares would have concentrated on sloops and frigates the game might have more appeal to the non-naval gamers and new players with fast moving battles a little more like air combat. Instead they have decided to go with larger ships that fight in slow moving lines of battle, something that has been around with other game systems for quite some time. In my opinion in the long run the game will suffer, as you have stated new players will not be attracted to the game, and veteran naval players that wanted the big ships will find that the game does not work well with them. At best, the big ships could be used with other game systems. I'm afraid that Ares short term profit with the big ships will hurt the popularity of the game in the long term and make it unprofitable to continue to produce the game.

[David Manley]

....However, this is where SoG can gain the edge, in a way, as it uses cards for movement like WoG, range sticks, not very much die rolling, and damage chits instead of cards!

For frigate actions I agree. Not so much for bigger actions where the rules run rather slower than many I've had experience with.

[Mycenius]

If Ares would have concentrated on sloops and frigates the game might have more appeal to the non-naval gamers and new players with fast moving battles a little more like air combat...

Curiously enough this is the very thing that has been given as a reason to me on 3 or 4 occasions by gamers for either not being interested in SGN or that SGN isn't a very compelling game or doesn't have good mechanics, i.e. "...they've just tried to do Wings of War with Ships instead of Aircraft!"

The simple fact is Age of Sail Naval Gaming is a niche market - that's all - end of story.

[Kentop]

Niche market doesn't really mean anything anymore. Dungeons and Dragons is a niche market. Corvette owners are a niche market. Harley Davidson, Burning Man, and even Chess are all niche markets. Popularity of games wax and wane mainly do to the economy and available players nearby. All it takes is a decent economy and promotion. Chess is popular in Russia and China because they teach it in school. It's less popular here, but most high schools still have a chess club. Where I grew up in England, Subbuteo was the game of choice because every kid owned a Subbuteo set with players for his favorite team. I still have my Continental Club edition with a bunch of heavyweight teams. Now, in Tucson, I can find more SGN players than Subbuteo players. And, frankly, Subbuteo is more fun.

[Naharaht]

Welcome to the Anchorage, Tony.

[John Paul]

For frigate actions I agree. Not so much for bigger actions where the rules run rather slower than many I've had experience with.

Curiously enough this is the very thing that has been given as a reason to me on 3 or 4 occasions by gamers for either not being interested in SGN or that SGN isn't a very compelling game or doesn't have good mechanics, i.e. "...they've just tried to do Wings of War with Ships instead of Aircraft!"

If Ares would have concentrated on sloops and frigates the game might have more appeal to the non-naval gamers and new players with fast moving battles a little more like air combat.

Bobby, David, & John,

Well, I thought it was an idea in attempting to attract players to the game especially at shows! I can see now it's not a GREAT idea by any means, as Eric, stated earlier I guess it doesn't allow players to think their "hair is on fire" while dodging bullets in the sky! Though I do agree with Kenneth; every period in this hobby is a niche thus a niche is a niche the only difference is the size of the niche! The only way to attract players to the niche is to hand them an itch for the niche, then stand back and let them scratch the itch till they fall into the niche! If you can dangle the worm the right way eventually a fish will bite!

[Mycenius]

Niche is still valid term in this context IMO - Napoleonic Naval is always something that is only going to attract a very limited amount of interest - so there's always going to be a need for something really special to try and capture a target audience as big as what Wings has...

[David Manley]

FWIW I have been putting some thought into a more WoG style variant, still using the ship's current manoeuvre cards but going for a single damage value and different damage decks used depending on the combination of firing ship and target, and with special damage on the cards in the same way as WoG. Still along way to go with making this work but if it does it could well make a lot of people happy.

[HMS Lydia]

IMO, not only are naval gamers a niche group, but many are firmly loyal to what is their belief, the perfect rule set. It is harder to get naval gamers to change games, than it is to get non-naval gamers to play this game. I have run dozens of convention and weekend LGS events, and anyone who already plays AoS walks away from the table saying, huh????why????what the heck???? These people never return to play again.

I understand this attitude, I have felt the same way about other games, some with decent miniatures, but were lousy games. I don't think Ares made a lousy game, and they are certainly producing good miniatures. There was a little too much science and history exchanged for perceived playability (I say perceived, because I don't believe these factors are in as much opposition as many game designers believe).

[Capn Duff]

Welcome Tony, glad you enjoyed the game at Hammerhead enough to get yourself a set.
It will take a bit of time to get used to everything, the rule book is not the best laid or easiest to read after the basic rules.
I have a document listing the sequence as used a Hammerhead if you want a copy, opm me if you do.

[fredmiracle]

Overall I think SGN is a good game. Maybe there were things that could have been tweaked to make it marginally more successful, but there seems little consensus on the board here as to what that would have been. There is just a huge range of things people would like, and no game can be all of them to all people.

It does seems to me that Ares' worldview is a bit more "purist" than is healthy. I suspect that without losing its soul, SGN could have been made more appealing to additional buying constituencies--so that people who had quibbles with the game rules would be more inclined to either (a) overlook their concerns because the whole package would be sufficiently compelling, or (b) buy the models for other uses. But it's a judgment call of course...

Given SGN as it currently exists, I do think that its sweet spot is small squadron battles. Maybe that's not the ideal place to be, but that's where I see SGN shining best. If I were Ares, I would gear future product development and marketing around that.

[Broadsword56]

IMO, not only are naval gamers a niche group, but many are firmly loyal to what is their belief, the perfect rule set. It is harder to get naval gamers to change games, than it is to get non-naval gamers to play this game. I have run dozens of convention and weekend LGS events, and anyone who already plays AoS walks away from the table saying, huh????why????what the heck???? These people never return to play again.

I understand this attitude, I have felt the same way about other games, some with decent miniatures, but were lousy games. I don't think Ares made a lousy game, and they are certainly producing good miniatures. There was a little too much science and history exchanged for perceived playability (I say perceived, because I don't believe these factors are in as much opposition as many game designers believe).

Yes, I've been surprised to see how fragmented and cliquish naval wargamers are, by and large. That's what motivated me to design a game that lets us all play it our own favorite way.

[David Manley]

Yes, I've been surprised to see how fragmented and cliquish naval wargamers are, by and large.......

LOL, no more than any other variety of wargamer, in my experience.

[Devsdoc]

Hi All,
yes! we are very cliquish. But I like many SOL wargamer's are always looking for THE RULE SET. I have many rules, but find it hard to find gamer's willing to play. To make and paint the ships is the frist bridge to cross. after which rules to play with.. The scale Ares used stopped a lot of SOL gamer's. To close to 1-1200 scale, but not so. I like the rules. The idea of ready made ships. But this all missed the ready made clique. I see so many do some great work on the ships. Why not buy metal model 1-1200 ships? Again it all just misses. I like Davids "ships with sticks". All Ares has done is make a clique within a small clique and limited the number of people who will play. I have over the last 18 mouths seen more members of this site leave than join. Some of you now say this game is only good for smaller ships actions, which larger scale ships cover. I have made many friends on this site, and lost some too! I do wish the game and you players well. I hope Ares make money on this game too, so can keep going.
Be safe
Rory

[John Paul]

I wouldn't say we're a cliquish bunch, but like old salts we're very much set in our ways, and don't readily adapt to change especially when we don't see the need for such change! I think one reason a number of folks have come and gone around here is they are too often the only one's in their particular group, whatever size it may be, to have bought at least the starter set and too often find it hard to get a game up on anything like a regular basis. In looking at my group we average around 30 plus yet we have a number of smaller groups that don't often cross over between their given interests. We have a group that's into Flames of War, another into strictly Napoleonics, there are 3 or 4 who only play WoG WW I, and yet another that are strictly into micro armor! Then we have that small handful who will show up on a semi-regular basis who will play anything except they don't really own any miniatures, and are lucky if they've ever bought a single rule book for a particular game they think they like to play more often then another!

The first time I ran a game of SoG some of the WoG guys were there that night playing, and one of them looked over my game and said; "It sort of looks like Wings on the ocean!" He then went back to his table, and has yet to ever play a SoG game though he has spent a lot of time doing various modifications to his WoG rules! I've tried to engage him in conversation to compare the two games, but not much has come from those efforts! I know many years ago when I got into 1/1200 ships I was the only one who had any ships, and only a handful of guys would be willing to play a game no matter what rules were used. After about a year another fellow came along who had some ships of his own, but he had spent a small fortune to have them painted and rigged. He brought them by one time and one of the guys picked one up and in the process of looking at it dislodged some of the rigging lines, so the owner refused to ever bring his ships around for a game out of fear they would be wrecked by the end of the game!

So there are those who only enjoy Wooden Ships and Iron Men, others who prefer Close Action, with every other rule set having it's own particular following. It often seems to me there is little cross over between rule sets, and when there is it is a small fraction at best. When SoG was announced I first thought it would be a good introductory style game to bring some fresh bodies into the period that had some interest but were held back by the very thought of painting and/or rigging the 1/1200 metal models. Maybe that was too hopeful a thought, but for now I'll stick with it and keep trying! As I think it's a good game all around, and if players give it a chance they will find it has something to offer and appeal to them at some level!!

[Bligh]

I only went down to the Nottingham Wargames club a couple of times, but when I took my ships down they would not let me join in with a game, so I never went again. Never had that experience with land based battles.
Bligh.

[Devsdoc]

I only went down to the Nottingham Wargames club a couple of times, but when I took my ships down they would not let me join in with a game, so I never went again. Never had that experience with land based battles.
Bligh.

I know how you feel Rob. My group like G.W. so got some interested by the back-door with G.W. Trafalgar. Not many wish to move on from that. So very little chance of moving to better rules. Maybe one day!!!!!!
Be safe
Rory

[David Manley]

.....So very little chance of moving to better rules.....

Mind yu they could change to anything and it would be better

[Devsdoc]

Mind yu they could change to anything and it would be better

Hi David,
Ha! Ha! Ha! That helps me a lot!
Be safe my friend
Rory

[Lord Ramage]

Welcome Tony, glad you enjoyed the game at Hammerhead enough to get yourself a set.
It will take a bit of time to get used to everything, the rule book is not the best laid or easiest to read after the basic rules.
I have a document listing the sequence as used a Hammerhead if you want a copy, opm me if you do.

[7eat51]

LOL, no more than any other variety of wargamer, in my experience.

I am learning this as I research WWII tactical minis rule sets, e.g. FoW players dismissing Bolt Action, etc. It's kind of funny listening to the conversations.

One thing I like about SoG is that I can teach someone enough rules in a few minutes that I can get them to the table for a small engagement and they can hold their own. It has been enjoyable watching friends nuance their tactics each time they return to play. The mechanics are easy enough that they can start thinking about tactics relatively quickly. Additionally, the record keeping isn't daunting when playing with basic/standard rules; actually, it is quite intuitive.

[7eat51]

Tony, please stop by the Welcome Aboard forum and introduce yourself there sometime. Folks will be glad to meet you.

[Union Jack]

It's a shame we don't have a film or TV series in the offing that captures the imagination and would draw people to the game. I know there are some out there but they are seldom on the TV or at the cinema anymore. Perhaps more piracy and plunder orientated games?

[TroubleAtTMill]

Yesterday I attended the above show as part of the Aerodrome, we had three table booked and put on all three games, WW1 WoG, WW2 WoG and SGN.
...
Not too sure if Ill put on any more games, as I would like to play also, I will keep the game as I quite like it and my local group enjoy playing also.

I must have walked past you several times at Hammerhead and missed you. :(

Hopefully we might see you at Hereward on 1 Nov?

[Bligh]

I must have walked past you several times at Hammerhead and missed you. :(

Hopefully we might see you at Hereward on 1 Nov?

May I ask what and where Hereward is Mike?
Bligh.

[TroubleAtTMill]

May I ask what and where Hereward is Mike?
Bligh.

Hehe. Shameless plug

http://www.hereward-wargames.co.uk/ - Wargames show, Sunday 1 Nov, the Cresset, Peterborough :D

[Bligh]

Thanks Mike.
I don't believe that the organizers have approached us about attending.
Chris may know more.
Rob.

[TroubleAtTMill]

Thanks Mike.
I don't believe that the organizers have approached us about attending.
Chris may know more.
Rob.

As the organisers include me :D... no, we haven't yet. The online form for folks who'd like to put on a game of some sort will be going up tonight :D

[Bligh]

As the organisers include me :D... no, we haven't yet. The online form for folks who'd like to put on a game of some sort will be going up tonight :D

Well thanks for enlightening me Mike.
I will pass this info on to Chris.
Rob.

[Union Jack]

Nov 1st could be do-able for me. Are you thinking SoG Rob?

[Bligh]

SoG puts me in a strange position Neil. Because Chris organizes our Shows he has the ultimate say on what we put on in consultation with the shows hosts. I have my position to back me over Wings games discussions with him, but here on Sails I have no position of authority, and therefore no right to try and sway the issue.
Rob.

[Popsical]

My old group have been and always will be GW players , this always makes me laugh as they can never seem to enjoy 40k ever.
They've become WFB players over the years and wont try anything else, i became utterly bored with the same game and scenario being played again and again and again...
So i sold up my collection and wandered off to game with my little girl games like SoG.
I just cant understand the mentality of folk who plough money and time into games they fail to enjoy or hardly use.