CALLING ALL PATRIOTS!!!

[Coog]

Obviously as the United States did not have a large navy and did not play a part in the large ship actions of the Napoleonic War, it was not included in the big five poll. However its presence during the period cannot be ignored...the war against the Barbary pirates, the Quasi War with France, and of course the War of 1812. In the big five poll England was chosen by many, including me, as the country of choice by those voting. However I feel that many would have choosen the United States if the poll had been opened up to include all those nations having some involvement during the period. For me the choice is simple...the United States Navy. Are there others sharing this sentiment?

As Stephen Decatur boldly toasted:

"Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right, but our country right or wrong."

[Comte de Brueys]

Fell free to create a new poll for minor Powers in the Napoleonic Age.

Hope we'll see some American ships in Sails of Glory.

[Coog]

Hope we'll see some American ships in Sails of Glory.

Seriously, my greatest concern about Sails of Glory is that it might end up being a game featuring only SOLs and some large frigates. Not only because my greatest historical interest is in the US Navy and its ships but that I prefer the actions fought with frigates and sloops. I've played other game systems dedicated only to the large ships and did not enjoy it as much as games I've played using the smaller ships. It seems there is a greater variety of scenerios you can set up, with movement being far more fluid, including not only the smaller warships and merchantmen but also a larger diversity of nations.

[David Manley]

From what I've seen of the game it is ideally suited to frigate actions and battles involving small ships, or small numbers of vessels. Whilst I'm sure it would work for bigger actions the card based movement system doesn't seem to offer much benefit for those kind of battles where linear tactics generally ruled the day.

[csadn]

Obviously as the United States did not have a large navy and did not play a part in the large ship actions of the Napoleonic War, it was not included in the big five poll. However its presence during the period cannot be ignored...the war against the Barbary pirates, the Quasi War with France, and of course the War of 1812. In the big five poll England was chosen by many, including me, as the country of choice by those voting. However I feel that many would have choosen the United States if the poll had been opened up to include all those nations having some involvement during the period. For me the choice is simple...the United States Navy. Are there others sharing this sentiment?

[Scott Hall impression]

Hey, yo. Been goin' 'round doin' a little poll here -- did y'all come here to see Europeans...

<crowd boos>

...or did y'all come here to see THE U -- S-- A?

<*HUGE* crowd cheering>

Survey says: One more for the Good Guys.

[/Scott Hall impression]

:)

<- wants to try running his scenario where the USN gets its "big six" frigates together and -- ahem -- "goes for Broke" >;)

[Berthier]

<- wants to try running his scenario where the USN gets its "big six" frigates together and -- ahem -- "goes for Broke" >

:D

[David Manley]

Six frigates? Hardly a fair fight. You'll need a few more Yankees :)

[Anav]

Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog!

[Mark Barker]

Its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog!

It depends what size of dog you bring to the fight ...

As David says, you'll need more than a few piffly frigates.

We've got 64s, 74s, even 3-deckers - you know, a proper navy .... :D

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

[Anav]

But having them and using them are two different things.......it took a few years but I think we figured it out....

[Mark Barker]

But having them and using them are two different things.......it took a few years but I think we figured it out....

Well, over a hundred actually. That said once we'd invented the aircraft carrier* you did seem to rather get the idea of dominating the worlds' oceans.

(* and the angled flight deck, and the steam catapult ....)

Oh well ...

and you have not been so daft as to sell off a perfectly capable fleet defence fighter and the carriers to deploy them and replace them with platforms that might just enter service in a decade or so if L-M and BAE/Thales buck the trends of the past 30 years and deliver something on time and in budget ....

If we had relied on current rates of defence procurement then the Spitfire would have been a cracking fighter when it came into service sometime in the 1950s.

But I digress .....

Coming back on topic, the "What if all the Humphreys ships got together and took on a blockading squadron in the War of 1812" scenario has a history of its own, dating right back to SPI's "Frigate" boardgame in the 70s. Our minatures game CFA has a scenario called Sandy Hook and I see Mark Campbell has been developing something based a few years later for "Close Action".

Whenever these get played (and they are great fun as both sides can dish out some serious firepower and have the morale and crew quality to hang in the fight) they have the atmosphere of a TV tag wrestling match. I still remember the time when my tired old 64 Africa was presented with the USS Constitution bow-on inside 100 yards.

I'll tell you one thing, the shot didn't bounce off "Old Ironsides" on that occasion ! :)

Which probably sums up why were are all here - we are really looking forward to being able to put something on the table and HAVE A GAME !

Best wishes,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

[csadn]

Six frigates? Hardly a fair fight. You'll need a few more Yankees :)

British force: Africa (64 guns: LD: 26 × 24-pounder guns; UD: 26 × 18-pounder guns; QD: 10 × 4-pounder guns; Fc: 2 × 9 pounder guns)
Shannon (38: Upper deck: 28 x 18-pounder guns; QD: 8 x 9-pounder guns + 14 x 32-pounder carronades; Fc: 2 x 9-pounder guns + 2 x 32-pounder carronades)
Guerriere (38: 16 x 32pdr carronades; 30 x 18pdr guns; 2 x 12pdr guns; 1 x 18pdr carronade)
Belvidera (36: UD:26 × 18-pounder guns; QD: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 10 × 32-pounder carronades; Fc: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 4 × 32-pounder carronades)
Aeolus (32: UD: 26 x 18-pounder guns; QD: 2 x 6-pounder guns + 8 x 24-pounder carronades; Fc: 2 x 6-pounder guns + 2 x 24-pounder carronades)
Weight of broadside: Guns 3304 lbs.; carronades 1730 lbs.; total 5034 lbs.

US Force: Constitution ("44": 30 × 24-pounder long gun, 20 × 32-pounder carronade, 2 × 24-pounder bow chasers) 768 l 640 s
United States ("44": 32 × long 24 pounders, 24 × 42 pounder carronades) 768 l 1008 s
President ("44": 32 x 24-pounder, 22 x 42-pounder carronades, 1 x 18-pounder long gun) 786 l 924 s
Constellation ("38": 28 × 18-pounder long guns, 20 × 32-pounder carronades) 504 l 640 s
Congress ("38": 24 × 18 pounders, 20 × 32 pounder carronades) 432 l 640 s
Chesapeake ("38": 29 × 18-pounder long guns, 18 × 32-pounder carronades, 2 × 12-pounder long guns, 1 × 12-pounder carronade) 546 l 588 s
Weight of broadside: Guns 3,804 lbs.; carronades 4,440 lbs.; total 8,244 lbs.

And that's before taking into account the superiority of the average USN frigate crew over the average RN frigate crew. :)

The times I've played this using _WS&IM_, the USN force wins every time; the only question is how many British ships survive the encounter (usually one -- _Africa_; the frigates die painfully). As suggested by the broadside weights above: The best chance for the British is to remain at range; if the USN gets close, the British are done.

No -- I'm afraid there are *quite* enough Yankees to perform the magic trick of Making A British Squadron Disappear.... >;)

[Coog]

It depends what size of dog you bring to the fight ...

As David says, you'll need more than a few piffly frigates.

We've got 64s, 74s, even 3-deckers - you know, a proper navy .... :D

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

The United States did have more than a few piffly frigates. Although the frigates of the US Navy gave a huge morale boost to the US, while ending the myth of the invulnerable British warship, in the larger picture they did not do a lot of damage. But all those 64s, 74s, and 3 deckers of that proper navy could not stop the hundreds of US privateers from wreaking havoc on British shipping, even off the coast of Britain itself, driving the costs of shipping through the roof and sending British merchants howling to the British Government to make peace with the United States.

[Anav]

Its funny.....there were just a few Yankees in 1941 too......
In both cases we had, or made, what we needed to win.

[Mark Barker]

... could not stop the hundreds of US privateers from wreaking havoc on British shipping, even off the coast of Britain itself, driving the costs of shipping through the roof and sending British merchants howling to the British Government to make peace with the United States.

I know the War of 1812 has an iconic place in US history (I suppose this is what I get for contributing to a thread called "Calling all Patriots") but I'll plough on ...

Of the 1350 ships captured by privateers and 254 warships taken by national vessels, less than 1/3 made it back as prizes to US harbours. 750 ships were recaptured by the Royal Navy.

On the other side, even though this was considered something of a side-show to the war against Napoleon and no more than two dozen major units were assigned to the US seaboard out of a fleet of hundreds, the RN took 1400 American prizes and several hundred more taken by British and Canadian privateers.

Yes, the merchants of Liverpool and Glasgow pressured the government, but by 1813 we had instituted the system of convoys which served us through both world wars and the rate of losses had fallen sharply.

By 1813 only 1/3rd of American sea-going merchant ships left port, and by 1814 that had fallen to 1/12th. By 1814 US export revenue had fallen 90%, imports by 75% and custom revenue halved despite rates being doubled - so I guess those merchants were not too happy either ... Such was the effectiveness of the later blockade that I understand some States actually considered leaving the Union.

Also worth remembering that during this period some US ports remained un-blockaded - those that were exporting grain to support Wellington's campaigns in the Peninsular - support for the war was by no means universal !

The version of history that the US won the war because it won 3 frigate actions and kicked our backsides at New Orleans is good propaganda and was vital for establishing national pride in a hitherto divided nation but is a distorted picture, especially viewed from Canada !

No, it was an unnecessary war, caused by a combination of high-handedness on our part and military expansism on the other.

I do not underestimate the part that it takes in US national pride, of course it is so important to you that it forms part of your National Anthem - but it does deserve a balanced view.

Best regards,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

Assuming the game does eventually cover the US frigates, I will request the pleasure of your company off the coast of New England in His Britannic Majesty's frigate Shannon and we can settle matters honuorably over the gameboard :)

[Mark Barker]

Its funny.....there were just a few Yankees in 1941 too......
In both cases we had, or made, what we needed to win.

Need I point out that that particular unpleasantness actually kicked off in 1939 ?

No, better not :rolleyes:

Better late than never ...

Mark

(Actually that was the point I was making Steve, when the US got the future direction of naval power it went for it big time. When the fleet carriers visit Portsmouth Harbour, they are quite a statement - even to an ally !)

[Anav]

Need I point out that that particular unpleasantness actually kicked off in 1939 ?

No, better not :rolleyes:

Better late than never ...

Mark

(Actually that was the point I was making Steve, when the US got the future direction of naval power it went for it big time. When the fleet carriers visit Portsmouth Harbour, they are quite a statement - even to an ally !)

For you, we did not throw down until December of '41, at least openly.

[David Manley]

Originally Posted by David Manley
Six frigates? Hardly a fair fight. You'll need a few more Yankees
British force: Africa (64 guns: LD: 26 × 24-pounder guns; UD: 26 × 18-pounder guns; QD: 10 × 4-pounder guns; Fc: 2 × 9 pounder guns)
Shannon (38: Upper deck: 28 x 18-pounder guns; QD: 8 x 9-pounder guns + 14 x 32-pounder carronades; Fc: 2 x 9-pounder guns + 2 x 32-pounder carronades)
Guerriere (38: 16 x 32pdr carronades; 30 x 18pdr guns; 2 x 12pdr guns; 1 x 18pdr carronade)
Belvidera (36: UD:26 × 18-pounder guns; QD: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 10 × 32-pounder carronades; Fc: 2 × 9-pounder guns + 4 × 32-pounder carronades)
Aeolus (32: UD: 26 x 18-pounder guns; QD: 2 x 6-pounder guns + 8 x 24-pounder carronades; Fc: 2 x 6-pounder guns + 2 x 24-pounder carronades)
Weight of broadside: Guns 3304 lbs.; carronades 1730 lbs.; total 5034 lbs.

US Force: Constitution ("44": 30 × 24-pounder long gun, 20 × 32-pounder carronade, 2 × 24-pounder bow chasers) 768 l 640 s
United States ("44": 32 × long 24 pounders, 24 × 42 pounder carronades) 768 l 1008 s
President ("44": 32 x 24-pounder, 22 x 42-pounder carronades, 1 x 18-pounder long gun) 786 l 924 s
Constellation ("38": 28 × 18-pounder long guns, 20 × 32-pounder carronades) 504 l 640 s
Congress ("38": 24 × 18 pounders, 20 × 32 pounder carronades) 432 l 640 s
Chesapeake ("38": 29 × 18-pounder long guns, 18 × 32-pounder carronades, 2 × 12-pounder long guns, 1 × 12-pounder carronade) 546 l 588 s
Weight of broadside: Guns 3,804 lbs.; carronades 4,440 lbs.; total 8,244 lbs.

lol, when you said "go for Broke" I assumed you meant the RN would only have the one frigate :D

[David Manley]

I do not underestimate the part that it takes in US national pride, of course it is so important to you that it forms part of your National Anthem - but it does deserve a balanced view.

See my previous posting on another thread that bizarrely connected the war of 1812 with Kylie Minogue :)

[Bumblie3]

See my previous posting on another thread that bizarrely connected the war of 1812 with Kylie Minogue :)

I would if I could David, but I'm blowed if I can find it!
John

[csadn]

No, it was an unnecessary war, caused by a combination of high-handedness on our part and military expansism on the other.

Very much so, on both sides. 1812 is best defined as "you can't always get what you want; but if you try, sometimes, you might find you get what you *need*". :)

Britain retained Canada; the US got Respect from the Big Name on the seas. Everyone goes away happy. :)

Need I point out that that particular unpleasantness actually kicked off in 1939 ?

[coughcoughthirty-plus*BILLION*dollars(unadjusted)inLendLeaseaidoversixyearscoughcoughcough] >;)

Oh, and if they do produce a US 38 frigate: Unlike that blithering idiot Lawrence, *I* have *no* intentions whatever of being Chivalrous or Honorable.... >;)

[David Manley]

[coughcoughthirty-plus*BILLION*dollars(unadjusted)inLendLeaseaidoversixyearscoughcoughcough]

All paid for in full, and I believe the US is still enjoying the benefit of some of our lovely sunny overseas territories (and will be for the next 30 years or so). I note that quite a few nations financially supported by the USA and Britain in both world wars are still a bit behind on their payments :)

[Mark Barker]

[coughcoughthirty-plus*BILLION*dollars(unadjusted)inLendLeaseaidoversixyearscoughcoughcough]

All paid for in full, and I believe the US is still enjoying the benefit of some of our lovely sunny overseas territories (and will be for the next 30 years or so). I note that quite a few nations financially supported by the USA and Britain in both world wars are still a bit behind on their payments :)

... and in cold and chilly East Anglia (where I was born) is still taking advantage of several thousand acres of UK real estate in the shape of RAF Mildenhall (essential for USAFE logistics and air refuelling capability) and RAF Lakenheath (home of the Liberty Wing and its cool F-15 C's and E's).

Yes friends, it is not commonly understood that the UK paid off the last installment of the post-war Anglo American loan in 2006. To say that we paid in full for Lend-Lease is pushing it a bit though, at the end of the war when Lend-Lease was suddenly withdrawn we still needed the equipment to generate enough income to feed the population (who would still be on food rationing for years to come). With the UK economy on a war footing, export income shad gone to zero and put simply the UK was bankrupt.

As a result, the remaining value of lend lease was written down substantially and converted into a loan, payable at 2% interest over 50 years. It is that loan that we paid off, not the full value of lend-lease. Don't forget reverse lend-lease too, or the substantial values provided by the Commonwealth and overseas Dominions and Territories into the US to support the struggle against the Axis nations.

All in all, a more complex picture that Rooseveldt's "If I lend my neighbor a fire hose costing $15 to save his house, I don't ask for $15 - I ask for it back when he's finished". It is that picture that most Americans I have encountered remember - which is a testament to his skill as a politician in winning support for a policy that was a controversial shift from isolationism.

In the post-war atmosphere, reality was bit less altrustic and a lot more economically hard-headed.

Best regards,

Mark

PS - This actually has a direct interest to our period - as the above is the reason the UK could not afford to preserve HMS Implacable (formerly the 74-gun Duguay-Trouin captured at Trafalgar) and scuttled her in 1949 :(

PPS - None of the above changes the fact that the War could not have been won without American economic muscle, a fact for which those of us directly threatened by the nightmare of Nazism remain profoundly grateful (even if we tease you a bit sometimes) :)

[Mark Barker]

Oh, and if they do produce a US 38 frigate: Unlike that blithering idiot Lawrence, *I* have *no* intentions whatever of being Chivalrous or Honorable.... >;)

Challenge accepted, sir !

... and if I have anything to do with it the timbers of your vessel will still grace a converted flour mill in Hampshire :)

http://www.inshore-squadron.co.uk/Chesapeake.jpg

Best wishes,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

[David Manley]

I can't help thinking that the Chesapeake Mill would make an excellent venue for a wargame. All we need is for a local chappie to organise something..... :)

[csadn]

Yes friends, it is not commonly understood that the UK paid off the last installment of the post-war Anglo American loan in 2006. To say that we paid in full for Lend-Lease is pushing it a bit though, at the end of the war when Lend-Lease was suddenly withdrawn we still needed the equipment to generate enough income to feed the population (who would still be on food rationing for years to come). With the UK economy on a war footing, export income shad gone to zero and put simply the UK was bankrupt.

As a result, the remaining value of lend lease was written down substantially and converted into a loan, payable at 2% interest over 50 years. It is that loan that we paid off, not the full value of lend-lease. Don't forget reverse lend-lease too, or the substantial values provided by the Commonwealth and overseas Dominions and Territories into the US to support the struggle against the Axis nations.

Indeed -- in fact, off the coasts of much of Britain and its territories are large coral reefs made almost entirely from LL materiel. The policy was "pay for it; give it back; or destroy it, and write it off as a war-loss". Given next-generation equipment were coming on-line (jets; MBT-type tanks; automatic rifles; etc.), the US didn't especially want the stuff back; and as noted, the British didn't have the money to pay for it; so it was taken offshore and dumped (*DAMN* *IT*!).

PPS - None of the above changes the fact that the War could not have been won without American economic muscle, a fact for which those of us directly threatened by the nightmare of Nazism remain profoundly grateful (even if we tease you a bit sometimes) :)

It's not the teasing which sets me off -- it's these clowns who insist on prattling the long-since-debunked line about "well, the US was barely involved in WW2; the Soviets won the war almost singlehandedly"*; I invoke Wolfgang Pauli at this point:

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/498.html .

[*: Do I also need to mention the $20-plus-*BILLION* the Soviets received from the US, which they sure-as-Hell never paid for? Never mind three stolen B-29s -- hint: Google "Tupolev Tu-4".]

Challenge accepted, sir !
... and if I have anything to do with it the timbers of your vessel will still grace a converted flour mill in Hampshire :)

Well, assuming it's been released by then :) , my best opportunity will be the 2014 World SF Convention in London. Unless someone kludges up an online version before then....

[David Manley]

my best opportunity will be the 2014 World SF Convention in London

Thats a date then :)

[David Manley]

Never mind three stolen B-29s

Does internment equal stealing? I know the Dutch made use of many British and German aircraft that ended up in Dutch territory during the Great War and didn't feel the need to return them. of course these days it could be said that the Russkis definitely infringed Boeing's IP :) Perhaps a question for the Aerodrome?

[Mitchell422]

Calling all Patriots....yes indeed....The Patriots sunk the ravens. Not a
pretty battle. But a win is a win....

[Mark Barker]

Does internment equal stealing? I know the Dutch made use of many British and German aircraft that ended up in Dutch territory during the Great War and didn't feel the need to return them. of course these days it could be said that the Russkis definitely infringed Boeing's IP :) Perhaps a question for the Aerodrome?

I would have thought the Carthaginians would have the Romans bang to rights in court for copyright infringement on the quinquireme except for the fact that by the end of the Punic Wars all the courts were Roman !

One man's reverse engineering is another man's tribute band ... If I remember correctly the early Russian Atolls were replicated from parts of a US Sidewinder kindly donated via the back end of a Chinese MiG.

The Tu-4 is pretty cut and dried, but while we are on the subject of blatant stealing of ideas post-war don't forget it was the all-moving tail design as provided to the US by the Miles M.52 design team that let Bell solve the X-1's handling problems and for Chuck Yeager to break the sound barrier safely !

OK, yes we also gave the plans to the R-R Nene jet engine to smiling Joe Stalin... but no-one's perfect !

Anyway, enough aviation - this is beginning to sound like work, back to the Age of Sail.

Best wishes,

Mark

[csadn]

Does internment equal stealing?

The way the Soviets did it: Yes. :)

[David Manley]

this is beginning to sound like work

Lots of aspects of naval wargaming sound like work to me :)

[Berthier]

Lots of aspects of naval wargaming sound like work to me :)

Indeed it does.

The test of any game is how much it can turn work into fun, complexity into simplicity and technicality into clarity. The WOW/G system actually does this surprisingly well. Taking a complex three dimensional (well most of the time) situation requiring simultaneous movement of different craft at different speeds with different turn rates, layering it with a damage infliction-protection system that varies between combatants and combined with a planned movement that is effectively semi-hidden movement, they then reduced it all to a hand full of rules in quite an extraordinary design achievement. If SOG can be half as elegant it should work a treat.

[Blackrose]

Calling all Patriots....yes indeed....The Patriots sunk the ravens. Not a
pretty battle. But a win is a win....

Here here (from someone who really isn't a football fan, but lives in Browns country anyway). :p
Karl