TaaaaaaaDaaaaaa! A one day build from scratch. I started at 6am and it is now 4pm. 10 Hours. Time for Beer!
That final pic is the Niagara meeting up with the Thorn. The mainmast sails are too low. I fixed that. I am printing out and applying Gina's flag as I type this.
Last edited by Kentop; 12-25-2014 at 16:24.
Here's Gina's flag attached to the main mast:
This is why cross platform printing is always a problem.
Looks fantastic Ken -- in the pics I've seen of Niagara, the ensign has always been abaft the trailing edge of the spanker, hauled up against the upper yard.
The ensign doesn't looks as overlarge when placed there. In fact I think they had them this size to aid in recognition at a distance -- or perhaps for pure patriotic pride?
You are right. I will move it thither. The upper yard is called the gaff. The lower yard is called the boom.
Excellent job! A fine looking ship indeed.
And while checking out the Radio Control forums today for any new scale sailing ship additions I saw this posting from August of 2014. Another US brig no less! Here's the link and video. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0AKEtUx0eQ#t=94
P.S. Ken I tried to give you some rep for this one day build, but I guess I have to spread it around before I can give you more.
Last edited by Nightmoss; 12-25-2014 at 21:26. Reason: Added Information
As it turns out further down the forum pages I see someone is scratch building an RC version of the USS Niagara. Here's the link if you're interested.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2181587
They have a ways yet to go, but the first float test was a success in November 2014.
Finished my Niagara today. I debated adding ratlines and eventually did so after taking a number of photos. Here's one, with the remainder uploaded in my SoG repaints album. Cheers!
Jim, I REALLY like the look of your Niagara.
How did you do your base?
Are your lines paintbrush bristles or thread method?
You even got the ensign blowing the right way for the set of the sails!
But the important question is, are *you* happy with it? Did it give you the value you hoped for? Do you think it will play well with others? What are your plans for it?
Now she needs a worthy opponent -- the HMS Detroit/Royal George/Wolfe sloop corvette model is available now (hint hint).
Jim,
My friend, No running rigging as yet? Are you getting old? Come no don't slip now. come onyour letting the side down.
Be safe
Rory
The base is Rod Langton's (resin) and I've drilled two holes in it for mounting magnets. In addition to the thin plastic base I put on the hull I also attached a thin magnetic sheet to the very bottom on the ship, which is what holds it to the Ares bases or the Langton bases (modified with magnets).Originally Posted by Broadsword56
I combined rigging using thread for the angles up through the yards to the masts and four bristles for the vertical lines down to the hull. I've never rigged a brig before so I don't even know if I got it right or not?
Yes, I very much like how it turned out and it definitely brings some variety to the table. Not sure if/when I'll use it for gaming? Not likely face to face, but if I get some stats, logs and an appropriate ship log I can sure try it out in a solo game or two.
I agree the HMS Detroit/Royal George are probably going to be purchased in the near future.
LOL. I am getting old Rory. I might add some running rigging, but it will have to be simple. Maybe some lines for the mizzen? I did add ratlines, matched as best I could. That should count for something?Jim,
My friend, No running rigging as yet? Are you getting old? Come no don't slip now. come on
Be safe
Rory
Jim, would you mind if I reposted some of your Niagara pics, with credit, to the model's page on Shapeways?
Any posted comments on the page would be welcome, too if you ever want to say something there.
Thanks again for buying it and sharing the beautiful work.
Sure, that would be fine. I may yet add some running rigging and a pennant or two, but feel free to use the photos. By the way I really like how Ken has his Niagara set to heel to leeward, but I opted for the level display as the plastic I have isn't thick enough to shape like basewood. I may yet try that on some of the SoG ships? It really adds a sense of movement to the ships. Cheers!
Kenneth and Jim, you work is really incredible.
Very admirable.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
OK, so Rory persuaded me to go ahead and attempt some running rigging on the US Brig Niagara. All was going well when the ship got flipped to the floor from about four feet high. I expected a total disaster, but was pleasantly surprised the damage wasn't more extensive. The standing rigging was loosened because some of the plastic lost its tension, but none of the ratlines popped off, which was a complete surprise. I still cant get the jib sail lines as taut as they were before so I'll just have to live with it. Even so I did most of the running rigging, but not all. On a ship this small it starts to get really busy, which I think detracts from the overall impression. Some of those lines were also loosened in the fall. Anyhow, here are a few photos of the finished ship. I'll put more up in my album.
Be safe
Rory
Glad to hear the Niagara survived its first "storm!"
I like the Shapeways "Strong & Flexible White Plastic" for minis -- relatively sturdy, not brittle.
When creating the Niagara ship log I did a comparison between the Thorn and the Niagara.
Thorn stats: Burthen 300 3/4 bm Length 96 1/2 Ft Beam 26ft 9in Depth 12ft 9 in Crew 125 Armament 16 6 pounders 12 1/2 pound swivel guns. Burden 1 Movement G Veer 8
Niagara stats: Burthen 492 bm Length 110ft 8 in Beam 32 ft draft 9 ft Crew 155 Armament 18 32 pounders 2 12 pounders Burden 2 Movement F Veer 7
Niagara has almost twice the burthen than the Thorn does. It has much heavier cannons, too. It has 30 more crew, is wider and longer than the thorn. So, here is what I think the ship log should look like.
It still needs tweaking. I obviously don't know how the maneuver decks works. I wanted the Niagara to be one deck slower than the Thorn, since it's bigger and heavier. But the F deck is for slow pig first raters. Maybe C or D deck? Also, the crew number is two high, I should change it to 4,4,4,3,2,1 so that it has 30 more crew than the Thorn, but less than a frigate. Let me know what you think.
Last edited by Kentop; 01-01-2015 at 09:33.
Thanks, Ken!! This looks great!
As for the Niagara ship base card will you use the Thorn's for the broadside angles and sailing directions or come up with something slightly different? Right now I'm using the Thorn's as a place holder, but that will have to change based on the log you've created.
I used the HMS Swan card because it seems to have a little wider broadside and can sail a hair closer to windward.
Here's the ship card:
And now for some action photos:
Beautiful! I'll have to print out the cards and try to set up a solo game to see how Niagara vs. Niagara might play out. Did you decide on C or D deck for maneuvers?
I haven't decided. I was kind of hoping someone on the forum could help. Then I will make new cards and ships logs and finalize it. The closest ship to the Niagara in SOG is the Embuscade 1798. It has a burden of 2, uses a C deck, and has a veer of 8. The Niagara should be at least that fast, so I'm thinking C deck. The reason I put so many crew chits on the Niagara is because it has 150 crew and only two masts, whereas the Embuscade has three masts and 187 crew. It may not make a difference, but I need some salty old expert to tell me what the SOG numbers should actually be. I don't have enough confidence in myself to set the numbers. My reasoning behind the ship damage counters is that the Thorn has a burden of 1 and 6 damage counter spaces. I gave the Niagara a burden of 2 but only 4 damage counter spaces. It takes 6 damage counters to sink the Thorn. It takes 8 to sink the Niagara, which is 492 tons burthen, while Thorn is only 300 burthen. So that seems logical. Embuscade takes 16 damage counters to sink and is around 680 tons burthen. So maybe Niagara should have one or two more damage counter spaces. I don't know. A veer of 8 seems awfully yar for a beamy frigate but SOG has 4 frigates that are apparently as quick to the helm as a sloop-ship. I would really appreciate some input from everyone so I can sleep at night.
I understand completely what you'er saying. I'm a modeler more than a gamer so I wouldn't have a clue what to suggest. You've clearly got more knowledge on the subject along with some real sailing background. I just paint them and push the plastic around on the mats.
Hopefully our resident consultants (Diamondback and David Manley) and others will have something to suggest soon? Don't lose any sleep over this. It's just a game after all.
The only thing I could add is that everything I've read about the Niagara said it couldn't sail anywhere near as close to the wind as an oceangoing corvette or frigate could, due to its shallow draft and lack of a knifelike shape to the hull.
FWIW I think a burthen of 2 is too high for a brig, its more appropriate to a light frigate rather than a relatively lightly built ship. And you've given her to many crew actions at 6 - should be 4 max. 3 might be too heavy a gunnery factor, but thats a problem with the statting range in SGN; difficult to get the appropriate definition at the smaller end of the range. Yes they are carronades, but as it stands she has the same firepower as a frigate at long range which isn't right. Maybe restrict firing to short range only, or reduce long range gunnery by 1?
Just some quick thoughts off the top of my head - by brain is currently filled with Star Trek stats as we are trying out a new set of rules with my FASA star fleets at the moment and there's a lot of stat conversion to do
Maybe halve the extent of the forward orange segments?
Another reason to cut down the crew actions is that the crew of the Niagara (and all the Lake Erie ships) were predominantly landsmen with the bare minimum of training.
Did they not get the benefit of the seamen taken from the frigates that were decommissioned? Many of the crews (and armament) were shipped to the Great Lakes when the seagojg ships were paid off.
Regardless, I'd probably reflect lower levels of crew training through the existing rules for inexperienced crews rather than reducing crew actions, although it is an interesting idea which might well be worth pursuing.
Good point. From what I read, the crews were still mostly lightly trained landsmen. Adm. Chauncey, on Lake Ontario, controlled the flow of personnel to Lake Erie and he kept the best available men for himself. The Niagara and Lawrence, as the best US ships on Lake Erie, had a sprinkling of veteran sailors who'd served in the saltwater fleet. Most of the experienced men, though, were officers and not enlisted crew. Also, there was a lot of lake fever sweeping the fleets and the ships barely had enough men to operate the ships properly in combat.
Ta for that, all useful info for when i get my Great Lakes campaign sorted out
So, Let's downgrade. Thorn has a burden of 1 and has six spaces for counter damage. Niagara should have 8 to 10? Thorn has 125 crew and three masts. Niagara has 155 crew and has two masts, so how many damage spaces for crew?
Here's my latest change to my Niagara model:
Perry's battle flag flying from the main topsail mast.
Thanks David and Gina for your input. It seems this might be enough information for Ken to plug some numbers into the cards and logs? I hope so.
We'll need some numbers for the Royal Navy as well. I did order the HMS Royal George/Detroit, but it wont arrive for a couple of weeks at least.
Ship, card and pennant look very nice Ken.
@Ken: I see Perry has already transferred his pennant to the Niagara!
@Dave: You're working on a Great Lakes campaign? Me, too! I got the Lord of the Lake campaign rules from Daveshoe, who used them to great acclaim in his Dave's Annual Naval Game get-together a few years ago (his blog about it here reports on the action). I'm adapting it for solitaire play by using chit-draws and die rolls to control the enemy AI. The lake is divided into 6 operating sectors, each with a 1km grid. I borrow a mechanism from the old Victory Games Tokyo Express, where the AI ships one might encounter on a portion of Lake Ontario follow "mission movement" orders (patrol, intercept, convoy, or land) and move in a straight course until they detect you. Once they detect you they use battle movement, which is like the SGN solo movement chart. This allows both sides to maneuver until they get adjacent, at which point the minis go on the table at 1m distance and you can use SGN, Heart of Oak, or any minis rule system you want to resolve the battle. My campaign will be a Cyberboard module for the PC.
Here comes the new updated Niagara stuff:
Thanks Ken. I'll try to get this printed up and in action soon. Wish I could give you more rep, but as before, I've not spread the rep around enough.
I'll give the rep for Jim. I'm not a shapeways fan but, your work on the Niagara and cards deserve it.
Thanks, Ed! Much appreciated. Ken's graphics and modeling work has definitely been enjoyable to watch!I'll give the rep for Jim. I'm not a shapeways fan but, your work on the Niagara and cards deserve it.
A final post for this thread. I needed a way to attach the Niagara to a SGN base. I looked at the little tapered peg underneath each SOG ship (bad design IMHO, the ships have to lay on their sides without a base to park them in. Hmmm, would a cribbage board work... or a pegboard of some kind? Styrofoam?). So, I McGuyvered one.
Looking around for a good sized peg, I found some grocery store shish-ka-bob bamboo skewers in my kitchen drawer.
I chopped off about 3/8" from the pointed tip of the skewer and drilled a shallow hole in the basswood base (Just holding the drill bit and rolling it in my fingers) of the Niagara. I super-glued the tapered peg in and twisted the peg into the base. The peg is about 3mm in diameter. The peg on an SGN ship is about 2.5mm. I could have sanded the peg but I preferred to whittle the peg down with an X-Acto blade until it fit snugly.
now I can use any base and not have to balance the ship on top. I didn't go the magnet route because I thought that the ship was too small for magnets.
Here's the last few pics.
I made sure the peg was perpendicular to the base to preserve the heeling to leeward.
Crude, but it has a very tight fit.
There are other things I can do to this model. I could add rigging, but I want the ship to fit in with the other models, and I sure as heck don't want to rig all those SGN ships. I may add the dolphin striker and spritsail yard (a couple of bent wires painted black). I had this idea of using my mustache comb to make ratlines for this scale (the teeth are the perfect distance apart for spacing the shrouds and you can actually use the correct number of lines at the correct angle for any ship). Detailing ships at this scale means that you run up against the law of diminishing returns. You can put hours of work into the rigging and when you're done, you think the ship looked fine without it. At this scale, less is more.
RANT: I have noticed that many people put huge "ratlines" on their ships. The ratlines are really just the horizontal lines attached to the shrouds that keep the mast from being pulled over by the sails. Those shrouds are actually adjustable from the deadeyes along side the hull. In modern bermuda rigged sailing ships, it's called "tuning the mast". The first set of shrouds in the age of sail attaches to the masts below the lowest yard on the mast. This allows the yardarm to swing as far as possible. If you swing the yard full aft starboard, and the sail hits the shrouds, you let out that sail's starboard sheets so it can hold the wind without chafing on the shrouds. The next set of shrouds go from the first cross-tree to where the next yard will be fixed so that yard, too, can move freely. The problem with teeny-tiny models is, that the sails are stiff and you cannot turn the yards without also turning the rigid sails. To do so means eliminating one side of the ratlines. Ratlines on these models also obscure most of the deck...which you painstakingly painted. Standing lines and running rigging also obscure the model itself. At this scale, rigging only gets in the way of the ship itself. Leave it off, and you have clean lines and a good look at the upper deck , the height of the masts, and the beam of the ship compared to it's length. Close up macro photography of a rigged ship at this scale looks really great. In person, you are not holding your nose 3" from the model. END OF RANT.
Last edited by Kentop; 01-02-2015 at 17:17.
Here's some suggestions,
Ships from naval fiction such as Spanish or French Mediterranean galley, Mejidieh, Natividad and
Chasse Maree's (luggers off Ushant) in C.S. Forester. Xebec frigate in one Aubrey/Maturin I think.
If Merchants become available this year Chasse Marees attacking a convoy Guarded by an overworked
frigate would be interesting for two or more players.
Technically, she's a Lawrence-class brig. But your card is beautiful!Here comes the new updated Niagara stuff:
Last edited by Amara; 03-18-2015 at 20:18.
One more thing: both Perry and Barclay had very severe manning problems, and all the ships in both fleets were critically shorthanded. I'm not sure that the crew track should run past the end of the hull track. And again, thanks so much for doing this; it's awesome to have these ships in SoG!Here comes the new updated Niagara stuff:
True about the manning problems. It was particularly bad on Lake Erie because of|
1. The fever that was sweeping though the squadrons, and,
2. The sporadic trickle of new sailors that arrived from the bases on Lake Ontario.
On Lake Ontario, manning was more a problem for the British than the Americans.
That's because the British had to get sailors all the way from Halifax to Kingston, on a long and partly overland route.
The Americans had plenty of idled ships in East Coast ports, due to the blockade. Those crews could be tapped for lakes reinforcements, and their route to Sacket's harbor wasn't quite as arduous.
But sickness was still a constant problem for both sides, particularly when they spent time in port. I read the other day that a good 10 percent of either side's sailors were always down from disease.
Catching up with threads as fast as I can. I am overwhelmed by this whole project, from the sculpting of the ship to the professional presentation of the cards.
There is hope yet for those of us about to embark in the conversion of Sloop to brig Kenneth.
Bligh.
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