Ares wave 3 update
Creator Ares Games about 10 hours ago
@Ed, in Wave 2 the packaging is new, the ships are the same. It was not necessary to change the design of the models.
@Rene, we will extend the range of English and French ships, too. As a next step, and to add a little more variety to the mix, we are doing some smaller ships of the line in Wave 3 - French 64-gun (Artesien) and English 50-gun ships (Portland
(Why a French and not a British 64?????)
So 4 SOLs in wave 3? No frigates, no sloops, no Americans. So much for SOG supposed to be a game oriented toward frigate and sloop actions. Decision to be made.Originally Posted by Gunner
Last edited by Coog; 10-03-2014 at 12:42.
Don't give up, Bobby.
I am not sure I would define variety as smaller SoLs. I wonder if Ares is contemplating smaller ships, or if such pieces would not be profitable.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
I think to make HMS Portland as a model for SGN is a bad decision
I have no clue why anybody at ares has this really bad idea to make this model when there can be so many other wonderful ships can be implemented.
A lack of model can't be the reason, especially when they want to add a english ship.
Last edited by Arakus; 10-03-2014 at 13:32.
Because HMS Leander, one of the ships at the Nile, was a Portland class ship
My question is, why is the RN always getting the short end of the stick with the smaller ships? Is this the same anti-RN bias that Richard Baker had in War at Sea?
The Royal Navy has a history of 'battling against the odds'.
True, but these two sculpts... other than the Chesapeake-Leopard Affair, the Nile and the Indian Ocean campaign I can almost hear the new guys scratching heads and going "WhaddaFRICK?!" Frankly, even though I agree that these are needed expansions to help fill out the line, I had questions about the timing of it--my approach would have been to do both a British and a French 64, for some balanced Indian Ocean battles.
But these are the hand we're being dealt... the question becomes what do WE DO with it.
I'm guessing that they know that the Portland class 50 gun frigate was used for decades, even through the American Revolution (HMS Leopard), and the Napoleonic era. SGN could literally crank out a bunch of Portland class ships in different paint schemes and flags. HMS Leopard was a Portland class frigate that boarded the USS Chesapeake.
Not quite... bunch of British, two French. Unsure about if there are any "close-enough" stretches, but looking into it. A long lived design, but they and the Roebuck 44's (HMS Serapis, actually two of them built with that name) were among the last of the two-decker "cruisers" before the cruiser role was transferred to single- or spar-deck heavy frigates like 44's (which had the advantage of more heavy guns).
This Portland is no frigate, ita a two deck ship, from 1756 onwards the 50-gun ships were no longer counted as ships of the line as the Navy no longer considered them powerful enough to stand in the line of battle.
But they were too slow for beeing a frigate, so not beeing a ship of the line anymore and to slow for a frigate they were in a "nirvana" between two classes.
Simply said, very poor ships.
Look at their armament:
Lower deck: 22 x 24-pounder guns
Upper deck: 22 × 12-pounder guns
Quarterdeck: 4 × 6-pounder guns
Forecastle: 2 x 6-pounder guns
Last edited by Arakus; 10-03-2014 at 17:09.
Toss it in and go play a different game?
Makes one wonder, who has the last say on choosing the new ships. Maybe he/she/they should be relegated to other duties.
But I am grateful for getting something.
And yes, I know you can't please everyone.
Is that DEFEATISM I hear in that voice? *draws sword*
Consider that Ares is basically a Five Man Band: it's either Rob himself or Christoph the CEO. Andrea A., Andrea M. and the rest of us can all offer suggestions, but at the end of the day RdM and CC have the desks with final say.Makes one wonder, who has the last say on choosing the new ships. Maybe he/she/they should be relegated to other duties.
But I am grateful for getting something.
And yes, I know you can't please everyone.
Look on the bright side: The French get the first version of the 64 to work the bugs out, so WHEN we get an RN 64--and I personally have already been breaking Clue-By-Fours over skulls and will CONTINUE to do so until either we GET one or the game ends whichever comes first--it should incorporate "lessons learned" and bug-fixes from the French prototypes. Remember, about half the RN was "let the French do all the real work, then rip off their designs and copy 'em"? :D
It is becoming quite obvious that Ares is going the "Trafalgar" route concentrating on ships for those kind of battles although the game system was not designed for that type of battle. I can't see someone setting up the British and French lines of battle for the Battle of the Nile at the FLGS, assuming they could draw in enough people to play, and being able to run a game anywhere as enjoyable, or more likely to recruit new players, as a four person or so game, each with a frigate, maneuvering around the board, shooting it out.
While I would have liked to have seen more American ships other than just Constitution (I don't consider a 1770's Swan-class sloop an "American" ship), I think I would have been as pleased with, and in the long run maybe even more so, ships like the 44-gun razeed Ardent-class with Captain Sir Edward Pellew's Indefatigable, made famous in the Hornblower novels, or the Unite-class corvette with Lucky Jack's HMS Surprise of Master and Commander fame.
I imagine with Wave 4 we will get ships like 80-gun SOLs and a British 64. With at best four new sculpts a year, based on WOG wave rates, we see anything like those soon.
Last edited by Coog; 10-03-2014 at 19:07.
Not defeatism. I defiantly refuse to be impressed onto a ship in which I do not wish to serve! *draws pistol*
I guess you didn't learn anything from Indiana Jones!
Last edited by Coog; 10-03-2014 at 19:13.
Arrr, but I be holding a match and standing next to a powder keg... LOL
By the way, take a look at the Indian Ocean Campaign--it's about the only spot where the same groups of ships fought each other regularly, and looks to be just about right for an SGN campaign. Main participating units were 64s and a handful of 74's.
Little Unrateds are a NIGHTMARE trying to dredge up data on, never mind trying to tool and have them be sturdy. However, I'll pass along a note about vocal clamoring for smaller frigates and more unrateds--actually, one of the research team has been making a pretty good case for taking a look at Sixth Rates as a baby step back down into the smaller sizes, so that might be good to put a nudge on.
We've got three potential sculpts for Americans: the Humphreys 44s plus their 1814 descendants, the Humphreys 38s plus Chesapeake and Philadelphia, and the Peacock five-ship group (a sixth burned before completion, including the Eries as near-sisters). Other than that, it's a whole lot of one-offs not even close to each other and we need two sides on the log for a release. (This is why some of us were a little apprehensive about Double Sided Ship Logs...)
Last edited by Diamondback; 10-03-2014 at 19:48.
Ha, ha ,ha, gotta love your the glass is half full attitude
No, Ed, it's called a strategy: "Beat them into submission with facts and data until the give you what you want Just To Make You SHUT UP FINALLY." LOL :D Also known as the Bulldog Strategy: "Sink teeth in, slowly add pressure, and whatever you do DON'T LET GO until satisfied."
Consider that I'm about as subtle as lodging a Minuteman III up somebody's rectum and then pushing the Big Red Button on it... O.O
Last edited by Diamondback; 10-03-2014 at 19:59.
Jorg, two-deckers DID have one niche where they shone: Convoy Escort. Not fast enough to enable the glory-hounds to chase prizes, heavy enough to fight off brigands and small frigate raiders... Duel: Bonhomme Richard vs Serapis has some enlightening data about the niche.
The system was not designed for Trafalgar but, other games are. SGN ships are the answer. No need to spend countless days building and painting a fleet. Ares is ( I hope ) doing it for you, as long as they don't get sidetracked with 50 gun ships, French 64's etc.
SGN is, in many ways, an ironic potmess (to use a bit of nautical vernacular)
A set of rules suited for small ship actions, not fleet actions
But where the models released so far are mainly at the fleet end of the scale
And where the stat range of the rules makes small ship statting really difficult to accomplish meaningfully.
You hit the nail on the head. Also throw in carronades and other range issues...I have to wonder just how well the game was thought out while being created.
I really think Ares would be better off overhauling the game. The ship models are the biggest production consideration and with the mast problem hopefully being corrected, nothing really needs to be changed there. Rewriting the range and firepower rules would require reprinting some cardboard and the rules book but would produce a much better game. But I seriously doubt Ares will do that and will try to make do with an inferior product.
Last edited by Coog; 10-04-2014 at 01:15.
It should NEVER be necessary for the players to have to totally overhaul a game from the ground up, but I'm starting to think that might be just what's necessary here--maybe if we as a community develop the "2.0" version it will be more logical.
For one thing, I've just been trying to find the logic in the broadside values and there doesn't seem to BE any. Highest broadside value in the game is HMS Hibernia with 8 for 1476#, but the heaviest historical broadside WEIGHT in the game, Montagne at 1618#, only gets a 7. What I personally would have done here would be to assign each gun deck a separate set of stats, much like how War at Sea had stat lines for Primary, Secondary, Tertiary and AA batteries (corresponding to Main, Second, Third/Fourth/Gaillards and "Antipersonnel"*), and also designed the game holistically, starting with the extreme smallest and largest conceivable units from "Tiddlywink of Gunboats" (say, four gunboats on a common base with pooled stats) up to Carronade-Load HMS Egmont and ensuring sufficient spacing that there are plenty of slots for everything in between. That, and trying to find an accurate damage model--a quartet of 8# would throw as much weight as a single 32#, but wouldn't have the same range or penetration--so smaller guns should reload faster but have less range and maybe have a lower proportional score than an equvalent broadside-weight of heavies. Carronades, as noted elsewhere the problem with them at range was not the capability of the weapon itself so much as limits of artillery science and sighting technology, so we need to differentiate between crde's with and without sight upgrades (for example, Broke had upgraded gunsights fitted on HMS Shannon's weapons).
Question to David: how much throw weight in a broadside would you say it takes to matter in terms of additional Damage Expectancy? For example, most Swans were built as 14's (two empty pairs of ports), around the AWI many were upgraded to 16's (filling one more pair) and as a US privateer Thorn carried 18 (all gunports armed), yet each pair only added 6# to the broadside.
*Read: "swivels, pederosos and similar."
Last edited by Diamondback; 10-04-2014 at 04:43.
Are there not usually 12 ship models in a Wave? We know something about four of them. The other eight may include some American ships. There may be some more frigates and sloops.
it depends on your stat range. If I was working on a set of rules optimised for small ship actions then it would be practicable to make distinctions in those cases. In the case of SGN they all blob into one
I think it is somewhat apparent that Ares did not have an AoS simulation in mind, but a family-oriented quality AoS game that is easy to learn and easy to manage game play. Like WoG, I can get a new player going within minutes using the basic rules, and after a couple of turns, the player can stand on their own regarding game mechanics. I think that was Ares' goal. For a such a game, they did a fine job.
The way I see it is either we wait for Ares to do something that is unlikely, we convert what we have into something better, or we move on. Personally, I have invested enough to go the conversion route. Unlike some of you, I am not a modeler though I have started dabbling in that arena; I will never have the time or talent to build a significant enough collection to surpass what I have from Ares regarding AoS.
Given that Ares probably will not rewrite the rules, how difficult would it be for us to write a set of house rules more conducive toward small ship actions, rules that include other factors such as carronades, etc? It wouldn't be difficult to create and print new ship logs or create new rulers. I have been impressed with the solo maneuver charts the folks put together here, and I have seen substantial house rule and component developments on the 'Drome.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
There are just 4 sculpts with each wave. They are given 3 different paint schemes to represent different ships of the same class and ships that were captured and used by other nations. The British Navy had quite a few captured French ships in use and this is reflected in the SOG models.
Last edited by Coog; 10-04-2014 at 09:52.
Didn't the WWI Air rules Canvas Eagles start as a home brewed game that really caught on? Couldn't we start a dedicated "Unofficial Anchorage SGN Rules" part of this site controlled and moderated by one or more of us (not me)? Starting with the advanced rules and dissect it a piece at a time starting with setup, game turn, planning et cetera. If that section is OK than mark it as, as written. If not, discuss an make changes. A giant headache yes, but maybe the only way to move the game forward.
David, I was thinking of attempting two goals:
1. Cover everything from Gunboat Group (not singles, I'm assuming 3-4 per figure) to First Rate
2. Not SUCK anywhere in the range
I think a total conversion could be done fairly easily, if we all pitch in from our areas of expertise. I found some primary-source range tables (these are from the diary of one of Victory's better gunners, reprinted in Osprey NVG Napoleonic Naval Armaments)for British guns, some for carronade ranges, and Silverstone's The Sailing Navy has a similar table for US gun ranges. Curiously, sources differ even within same volume... per one source, max range on a British 32# gun is 2493yd@10deg elevation, while the gunner's notes give "pointblank 633, out angle 3165, utmost 3080", while American guns seem to have only been recorded to 5deg elev where our 32# does 2080yd. No joy finding range data for France or Spain. Hmmm... I wonder if the gunners on Victory weren't coaxing extra range out by firing on-the-roll, using the ship's roll for a few extra degrees of elevation beyond the carriages' limits. David, when you have some time would you mind taking a look at my fragmentary notes and seeing if you can suggest anything about piecing them into something more cohesive?
Oh, by the way, here's a real WTF?! for y'all... based on historical data, the entire range from 904# to 1618# is a Full Broadside of 7, yet HMS Hibernia (which only EQUALS most of the Oceans at 1476) gets boosted to a whopping 8. This sounds to me like Hibernia and Montagne (the sole 1618# score) should trade Gunnery stats in an Errata.
+100 to this concept!
Discussions like this inspire me to continue trying to make 3D printed ships available, because there's the hope of having "2.0" eventually to use them with.
No point in just sitting around griping and sniping at Ares. They gave us something good to start from. I'm sure this community could build on the "bones" of what is really a very smooth-playing SGN system and make something more realistic and fun for adult wargamers. The important thing is to fix only what's needed and not strain the SGN system past its breaking point.
The other important thing we need is numbers that make sense... like I said, a 1475# broadside getting the only 8 in the game while a 1610# getting only a 7 just Does Not Add Up--more in my thread on Decrypting the Numbers.
Looking back over my email traffic with the designers, there is indeed a system used to calculate firepower factors but no I don't know what it is.
If it was me starting with a clean(ish) sheet of paper I'd not get hung up over exact throw weights, since thats just one of very many variables in the equation (individual shot weight has an effect, as does muzzle velocity, impact velocity, wind, crew quality, etc). I would probably look at broad classes or buckets into which ships would be put. For example "74", "80", "36-38", etc. Maybe even simply based on rates (although that would be too restrictive I think). Then apply a set draw of chits per bucket, modify the number of chits drawn due to circumstances - and take out any chit numbered greater than 3. Probably double the burden of each ship, or at least boost them so that the small fry can have a better range of variation. I think I looked at doing something along these lines the last time we got worried about this.
Trouble is, having done this you might as well just use one of the many existing sets that are out there already. in many ways I'm coming to the conclusion that "it is what it is" - its a fun game that is OK at introducing new players, just like WOW. And like WOW it may or may not have various issues with mimicking reality. But going forward I'd probably use something else (maybe with the minis). Which actually is whats happened here, my local gaming club has decided that they like the minis but not the rules and so they've moved on to another set.
Maybe in the formula are things like crew quality of the ship for the specific date implemented?
This is a possible point why the ships have so different damage comparing their broadside weight only.
A good trained crew fires faster and can do more damage in a given time, this can make huge differences in this time.
Last edited by Arakus; 10-06-2014 at 12:18.
I agree with Jorg here. I have always thought there was more to the numbers than just throw weight. Wouldn't be the first AoS rule set to include historical "national" characteristics or some other such factor in the equation.
Late to the party, because the site keeps going toes-up....
Rules rewrite: If anyone is interested, I have a notion which can be written up on a 3x5 card....
What to do with the ships: Alternate-history -- in my case: The French Revs hire some Americans to keep the Rev under some sort of control; in exchange, the US gets some SoLs....
Go for it!
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