HMS Cruizer (1797)

[mdavis41]

I have posted an article on my Blog about the HMS Cruizer. I just discovered a very nice model of this brig-sloop in St Helier, Jersey. This would make a good subject for a future Ares model, given the large number of such vessels produced for the Royal Navy (105).

http://horseandmusket2.blogspot.com/...izer-1797.html

[7eat51]

Thanks for sharing, Michael. nice pictures of the ship; the setting is different from what I normally see.

I like the converted warehouse/museum.

[Coog]

Great article, thanks for posting. There have been a few of us here at the Anchorage wanting Ares to produce the Cruzier class brig sloops along with American ship sloops to face them in War of 1812 engagements.

[Diamondback]

The rub is, SGN really doesn't lend itself to small-ship handling well... the Cruisers and even more so the Cherokee gun-brigs would be downright tiny, and as it is the Swans are pretty darn small.

[mdavis41]

Quite right of course. I just wonder if there is a game within a game.

[Diamondback]

As an engineer I understand why 1/1000 when the decision was made to change scales--fits nicely with decimalization, so however many meters a given measurement was fullsize is how many millimeters it should be on the model--but I think 1/900 or 1/700 might have been a better choice for a game meant to include Itty Bitty Ships.

However, the die is cast... the challenge is figuring out how to wring what we can out of what we have,given that most of the development is Sunk Cost and radical change of mechanics is Off The Table. For example, I might consider letting exceptionally maneuverable ships at Full Sail have a choice of moving either one card at Full or two at Backing, without requiring a change in sail settings, as long as the distance moved is same or less than at Full Sail.

[Coog]

The rub is, SGN really doesn't lend itself to small-ship handling well... the Cruisers and even more so the Cherokee gun-brigs would be downright tiny, and as it is the Swans are pretty darn small.

The Cruzier-class brig would be slightly larger than the Swan-class sloop.


Cruzier-class

Weight: 382 tons
Length: 100 feet
Beam: 30 feet 6 inches

Swan-class

Weight: 300 tons (the Swan-class has the extra weight of a quarterdeck whereas the Cruzier-class is flush deck)
Legnth: 96 feet 7 inches
Beam: 26 feet 9 inches

[Diamondback]

Conceded, couldn't remember the numbers. Difference on minis of about a millimeter on length, about similar on beam.

[Redcoat]

Nice pictures Michael

[Nightmoss]

Great photo and blog! Thanks!

[DeRuyter]

The Cruzier-class brig would be slightly larger than the Swan-class sloop.


Cruzier-class

Weight: 382 tons
Length: 100 feet
Beam: 30 feet 6 inches

Swan-class

Weight: 300 tons (the Swan-class has the extra weight of a quarterdeck whereas the Cruzier-class is flush deck)
Legnth: 96 feet 7 inches
Beam: 26 feet 9 inches

Good point. I was thinking this myself. Some of the brigs, especially the US ones likely threw a much heavier broadside weight than the Swans as well.

[Coog]

Some of the brigs, especially the US ones likely threw a much heavier broadside weight than the Swans as well.

Most British and American ship-sloops, brig-sloops, and schooners switched from small long guns to carronades around 1800. A vessel with or would have had 9-pounder long guns on their gun deck would have them typically replaced with 32-pounder carronades. American ships would have two 12-pounder long guns for chasers while the British preferred smaller 6 or 9-pounders for chase guns. Vessels with smaller long guns, such as 6-pounders, would have them replaced with smaller carronades such as 18-pounders and retained a couple of long guns as chasers. French vessels did make use of carronades but often utilized small long guns for their main battery. HMS Surprise is a good example. Originally as the French Unité, she had 24 8-pounder long guns on her main deck with 8 4-pounder long guns on her FC and QD. After capture, renamed Surprise, the long guns were replaced with 32-pounder carronades with only 2 4-pounder long guns retained as chasers.

[Diamondback]

Early British Swan was rated for 14 guns, later Swan was rated for 14 but carried 16 (see Thorn), and many 16's frequently carried 18.

[Coog]

Early British Swan was rated for 14 guns, later Swan was rated for 14 but carried 16 (see Thorn), and many 16's frequently carried 18.

They were designed for 18, pierced for 9 guns on each side.

[Diamondback]

Right, I'm just pointing out that while the designer may have built in a little expansion room, the cheapasses at the Admiralty didn't always shell out for cannon and crew to fully load 'em. ESPECIALLY not crew... no matter how many crew your ship may have needed, you only GOT a number based on her gun rating and if it wasn't enough, well, SUX2BU.

[Coog]

Right, I'm just pointing out that while the designer may have built in a little expansion room, the cheapasses at the Admiralty didn't always shell out for cannon and crew to fully load 'em. ESPECIALLY not crew... no matter how many crew your ship may have needed, you only GOT a number based on her gun rating and if it wasn't enough, well, SUX2BU.

You're right about the Brits. It seems the Americans were just the opposite. If there was a gun port, it had to be filled...often with a gun one size too big. And crew...the more, the merrier. Many of the smaller American ships were so overloaded with guns and crew, their sailing characteristics were ruined.

[DeRuyter]

Most British and American ship-sloops, brig-sloops, and schooners switched from small long guns to carronades around 1800. A vessel with or would have had 9-pounder long guns on their gun deck would have them typically replaced with 32-pounder carronades. American ships would have two 12-pounder long guns for chasers while the British preferred smaller 6 or 9-pounders for chase guns. Vessels with smaller long guns, such as 6-pounders, would have them replaced with smaller carronades such as 18-pounders and retained a couple of long guns as chasers. French vessels did make use of carronades but often utilized small long guns for their main battery. HMS Surprise is a good example. Originally as the French Unité, she had 24 8-pounder long guns on her main deck with 8 4-pounder long guns on her FC and QD. After capture, renamed Surprise, the long guns were replaced with 32-pounder carronades with only 2 4-pounder long guns retained as chasers.

Right. I wanted to compare the Swan as modeled in SGN, which carried 6 pounders and threw a BS wgt of 42lbs (as built). The USS Wasp for example threw 268lbs (with 32lb carronades). Really apples and oranges, but good news for Cruzier class brigs and US ship sloops for 1812 in terms of playability in SGN.

[csadn]

You're right about the Brits. It seems the Americans were just the opposite. If there was a gun port, it had to be filled...often with a gun one size too big. And crew...the more, the merrier. Many of the smaller American ships were so overloaded with guns and crew, their sailing characteristics were ruined.

[nod] The museum for USS _Constitution_ has an entire section devoted to "fixing the damage to the ship caused by the tendency of US captains to go apes*** with the Big Guns". (According to my sources: At one point, _Constitution_ carried *60* 24s -- and the beginning of "ships of the line" at the time was 64....)

[Coog]

[nod] The museum for USS _Constitution_ has an entire section devoted to "fixing the damage to the ship caused by the tendency of US captains to go apes*** with the Big Guns". (According to my sources: At one point, _Constitution_ carried *60* 24s -- and the beginning of "ships of the line" at the time was 64....)

The 44's did have more ports than used, enough to have mounted 60 guns but there is no record of this being tried. The top number of guns known was 56 and this included all the carronades. The most 24-pounders would have been 30 which includes the 2 used as chase guns. The sailing quality of a 44 carrying 60 24-pounders would have severely been affected.

[Diamondback]

Makes me wonder if Humphreys didn't design them with an option to downgrade to a buttload of 18# in case the 24's didn't work out... remember, up to that point nobody was having much luck with 24-pounder frigates yet, and the biggest reason for the breakthrough was the combination of the French finally getting it on their side with Pomone (thus giving the RN a huge boost in catch-up learning on her capture; the Endymions are basically a straight copy) and the Brits having their backs to the wall thanks to Constitution & Co.

[Coog]

Makes me wonder if Humphreys didn't design them with an option to downgrade to a buttload of 18# in case the 24's didn't work out... remember, up to that point nobody was having much luck with 24-pounder frigates yet, and the biggest reason for the breakthrough was the combination of the French finally getting it on their side with Pomone (thus giving the RN a huge boost in catch-up learning on her capture; the Endymions are basically a straight copy) and the Brits having their backs to the wall thanks to Constitution & Co.

There were problems with the American 24-pounder gun. They were not the same model, weight, and dimensions in all the ships carrying them. Some were based on the British model, some fortification guns, and some were made on what was intended to be a standard model. American manufacturing had not come of age yet.