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Thread: Stretching Sculpts: SGN108 and SGN201 British First Rates

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    Default Stretching Sculpts: SGN108 and SGN201 British First Rates

    Since SGN108 and SGN201's sculpts are both based on HMS Victory, I'm addressing them as a single "merged" sculpt with High End and Low End versions.

    First, let's start by comparing the ships that were all tossed together into this sculpt.

    1745 Establishment 100 (1756 Royal George and 1762 Britannia)


    1765 HMS Victory (three-decker based on Triumph 74, ultimately on 1744 French Invincible 74


    1786 HMS Royal Sovereign (suspected):


    1788 Royal George, 1800 and 1810 Princess Charlottes:


    1795 HMS Ville de Paris:


    1804 HMS Hibernia: (shows Hibernia's 11' stretch of the Ville de Paris design, no really good 3-views available)


    Next post, I'll break these down by designer and look at Second Rates that came from the same hand, starting with Allin's 1756 Royal George.

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    So, looking at Allin's work first as the oldest...

    1745 Establishment 100


    1756 Neptune 90


    1756 Namur 90 (Bately stretch of Allin's Neptune design)

    Class Length on Gundeck Breadth Lower Middle Upper Quarterdeck Forecastle
    1756 Royal George 100 54.25m 15.8m 30x32# 28x24# 30x12# 10x6# (1762-1803)
    12x12# (1803 on)
    2x6# (1762-1803)
    2x12#+2x24#crde (1803 on)
    1756 Neptune 90 52.12m 14.78m 26x32# 26x18# 26x12# 10x6# as-built
    10x12# later
    2x6# as-built
    2x12# later
    1756 Namur 90 53.34m 14.78m 26x32# 26x18# 26x12# 10x6# as-built
    10x12# by 1793
    “ + 6x18#crde 1794 on
    2x6# as-built
    2x12# by 1793
    “ + 2x32#crde 1794 on

    Right now, my gut tells me that IF we had an accurate 1756 Royal George sculpt, I would be comfortable using it to represent Allin and Bately's "baby sister" designs. Anyone see anything I'm missing that would be a problem there?
    Last edited by Diamondback; 07-10-2014 at 01:20.

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    I doubt Slade cross-pollinated between his 1st and 2nd Rates, but I'll put the drawings up for comparison anyway. We might as well not bother with the Barfleurs, though--they were designed after the 1757 cutdown of 1719 Royal William into a 2nd Rate, which basically created a three-deck flush-decker without quarterdeck or forecastle, though the Barfleurs eventually had them retrofitted and armed.

    1765 Victory (sculpt basis for SGN108 and SGN201)


    1759 Sandwich 90


    1761 Ocean 90 (improved Sandwich)


    1766 London 98 (Further improved Sandwich?)


    1810 Boyne 98 (allegedly built to the lines of Victory, which was herself derated to a 98 as a prototype; drawing is sister 1811 Union)


    Class Length on Gundeck Breadth Lower Middle Upper Quarterdeck Forecastle
    1765 HMS Victory 100 56.69m 15.8m 30x42# design
    30x32# 1778
    28x32# 1807
    28x24# pre-1807
    28x18# 1807
    30x12# 10x6# 2x6#
    1759 Sandwich 90 53.62m 14.94m 28x32# 28x18# 30x12# 2x6# as-built
    2x12# 1790-on
    2x6# as-built
    8x12# 1790-on (Blenheim only)
    1761 Ocean 90 53.62m 14.94m 28x32# 28x18# 30x12# none 2x9#
    1766 London 98 54.07m 14.94m 28x32# 30x18# 30x12# None (as blt)
    8x6# (1788)
    8x12# (1790)
    2x9# (blt)
    2x12# (1790)
    1810 Boyne 98 56.69m 15.8m 28x32# 30x18# 30x12# 4x12#+8x32#crde 2x12#+2x32#crde

    The draught of Victory is severely deteriorated by age and poor handling before entering NMM custody, but it might be enough to render a Go/NoGo from--the Boynes I have high enough confidence in that I've already listed them as confirmed, since they're basically a clone from "Trafalgar Spec". Also, note that I have omitted many of Victory's variant rearmings, which could make around SEVEN different ship logs for SGN if memory serves me correctly.
    EDIT: In light of the Boynes having such a close relationship... well, in paleontology they use a "type specimen" to define a new species and compare new finds to that, but sometimes when the type is compromised (for example, the type specimen for Spinosaurus aegypticus was destroyed in WWII) a second closely-matching specimen will be used as a "paratype," and thus we can similarly use Union's draught as a paratype for comparison to Victory in the missing sections.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 01-21-2015 at 15:20.

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    I don't think I'd want to see the first-rate model reused to represent a second rate, even if it could be justified in principle.

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    Williams's ships are next up.

    1786 Royal Sovereign 100


    1777 Duke 98


    Class Length on Gundeck Breadth Lower Middle Upper Quarterdeck Forecastle
    1786 Royal Sovereign 100 56.69m 15.85m 28x42# (blt)
    28x32# (1793-on)
    28x24# 30x12# 10x12# 4x12#
    1777 Duke 98 54.07m 15.24m 28x32# 30x18# 30x12# 8x6# (blt)
    8x12# (1792)
    2x9# (blt)
    2x12# (1792)
    Last edited by Diamondback; 07-10-2014 at 21:54.

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    Hunt's designs.

    Umpire aka "New" Royal George 100


    1790 Boyne 98
    Last edited by Diamondback; 07-11-2014 at 15:14. Reason: OOPS! Wrong 2nd Rate

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    For Henslow, I'm only going to compare the earlier Ville de Paris.

    Ville de Paris 100


    Dreadnought 98

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    Almost all of the 98s, shapewise, seem to have a more pronounced "banana" curve along the topline than the 100's, except 1810 Boyne for obvious reasons.

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    Minor update, with an apology to Ares... Ville de Paris and Hibernia, per BWAS 1714-1792, are successive stretches of Royal Sovereign (each stretch gaining ten guns over the previous). So I will admit to having been overconservative... my last lingering reservation is more size than design relationship, but it's moved into the "*shrug*well, ok..." column for me.

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    Why am I thinking of the jokes about "Boeing's Great Fuselage Machine"?

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    AGAIN?! *stares*

    lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    AGAIN?! *stares*

    lol
    "Sometimes a Ship's Hull is just a Ship's Hull".... >;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    "...and sometimes it's the Good Ship _Venus_...."

    <- hiding

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    So here's the bad news, guys... Ares got it backward. The SGN108 sculpt really only works well for nine ships, none of whose names it bears:
    *1803 rebuild HMS Victory
    *1805 HMS Ocean
    *1808 HMS Caledonia
    *1810 HMS Queen Charlotte
    *1810 HMS Impregnable
    *1810 HMS Boyne
    *1811 HMS Union
    *1814 HMS Nelson
    *1815 HMS Howe

    All others, including 1765 Victory as-built, are better served with the SGN201 sculpt. The cutoff for "open" vs "enclosed" galleries seems to be around the 1803 rebuild of Victory; all three Dreadnought second-rates had open galleries but Ocean had hers enclosed as part of the redesign that also stretched her, and Impregnable was IIRC a further stretch of that.
    --Diamondback
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    Very sad DB unless you are concentrating on the later war, where non of the named ships had a very active role to play. Still that only applys if you are sticking to historical scenarios, otherwise anything goes.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    Flag on the play, the Neptunes were redesigned with enclosed galleries so that's three more.
    Open gallery First Rates
    use SGN201
    Open gallery Second Rates
    use SGN201
    Enclosed galleries, use SGN108
    1756 HMS Royal George
    1762 HMS Britannia
    1765 HMS Victory as-built
    1786 HMS Royal Sovereign
    1788 HMS Royal George
    1800 HMS Queen Charlotte
    1795 HMS Ville de Paris
    1804 HMS Hibernia
    1756 HMS Neptune
    1750s HMS Union
    1756 HMS Namur
    1759 HMS Sandwich
    1761 HMS Blenheim
    1766 HMS London
    1769 HMS Queen
    1777 HMS Duke
    1782 HMS Atlas
    1785 HMS St. George
    1786 HMS Impregnable
    1788 HMS Glory
    1788 HMS Prince
    1790 HMS Windsor Castle
    1790 HMS Boyne
    1794 HMS Prince of Wales
    1797 HMS Neptune
    1798 HMS Temeraire
    1801 HMS Dreadnought
    1803 rebuild HMS Victory
    1805 HMS Ocean
    1808 HMS Caledonia
    1810 HMS Queen Charlotte
    1810 HMS Impregnable
    1810 HMS Boyne
    1811 HMS Union
    1814 HMS Nelson
    1815 HMS Howe
    Not suitable for either sculpt: Royal William and the Barfleurs
    So that gets us an even dozen for the SGN108 sculpt compared to twice that for SGN201.
    Last edited by Diamondback; 10-15-2020 at 13:54.
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    Great work DB. Even I can follow that. I may now be having a rethink on one or two of my conversions.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    To be honest, I'm mainly keying on the stern galleries. Hopefully this only impacts "planned" and not "already cut"... my own plan is I'm gonna push Ares hard on the biggest open-gallery Second Rate possible then just play Musical Minis.
    --Diamondback
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    Good one DB. I hope you are successful in this. as Comptroller of the Navy Board you should have the final say in which new ships are approved for constructing!
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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    If I had my way, I'd kickstart us by having Ares partner with Rod Langton and basically mirror his entire catalog, then build out from there.
    --Diamondback
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    You know my thoughts on this as I did bring up the swapped hulls of 108 and 201.

    I may be able to modify the ships, but it shouldn't be necessary and it's not really realistic on this scale, having to rebuild nearly every ship.

    Still I approve of your verdicts.

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    Thanks Sven.
    I agree. Even I am not quite mad enough to trey and rebuild every ship, even just to get Trafalgar and the Nile right would be too much of a task for me. I am going along with the nearest ship fits and hope that in the Future DB's efforts to sway Ares design programme pays off.
    Rob.
    The Business of the commander-in-chief is first to bring an enemy fleet to battle on the most advantageous terms to himself, (I mean that of laying his ships close on board the enemy, as expeditiously as possible); and secondly to continue them there until the business is decided.

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