What would you like to see changed or improved with the Ares SGN ships or playing accessories?
I'd like to start with,
stop using Cartoon colors for the ships trim. Mainly the bright blue and Halloween orange.
CHANGES YOU THINK ARES/SGN SHOULD MAKE.
What would you like to see changed or improved with the Ares SGN ships or playing accessories?
I'd like to start with,
stop using Cartoon colors for the ships trim. Mainly the bright blue and Halloween orange.
I'll throw out a few suggestions. I still love the ships, but in a perfect world I would put these on my wish list.
1. Get rid of the stern flag and flagpole; make some kind of slip on pennant for the mainmasts instead.
2. Remove the decal/stencil overlay on the stern details. Give me molded plastic windows, rails and trim, not plastic sheeting molded onto the stern.
3. Try to minimize the plastic between the masts and sails.
I'd agree with all of the above. I understand with the cost of production that there are concessions that need to be made to reach a certain price point. But if they did a set of wave three ships I would hope they would take feedback like this into account. I feel pretty comfortable saying that most people that would purchase a game like this are hobbyist and/or a genera enthusiast. I also feel pretty comfortable saying that most people probably would not mind paying a few extra dollars for more detail added into the ship models. Overall though I will say that for what they are, the level of detail they put into the ships is pretty great. Enough detail to add a good level of thematic atmosphere but not enough that is intimidating to someone foreign to the genera or not very comfortable modifying things. For myself personally, I don't mind paying extra $ to get a nicely detailed pre-painted model.
I think Ares faces a difficult challenge of trying to give the ships some visual distinctiveness, so as to encourage sales and get people excited about new models, while not veering too far from historicity.Originally Posted by Gunner
Speaking bluntly, in the past when I've seen someone's meticulously crafted battleline, I've been able to admire their artistry and historical integrity, and yet found the resulting row of 15-20 nearly identical ships visually underwhelming. Same with ancients. I'm sure that exposes the limits of my imagination and knowledge, but compared to the variety of a 20th century fleet, it can look a bit like an attack of the clones to me.
Do you have alternate approaches in mind for Ares to add some perceivable variety to the models?
I thought I was clear. Stop using "cartoon" colors and turn down the lights with no appreciable cost to the company. I'm pretty sure captains of old didn't need fluorescent colored trim to recognize the enemy. At best, they would know which enemy ships were in the area. I'd like to see it kept as realistic as possible.
I don't think I'll see a SGN battle with "rows of 15-20" ships per side (but I'd like to).
Actually, if you look at the cover of the Anatomy of the Ship volume on Bellona, you see that she WAS just that "cartoony" according to one interpretation at one point in her career. I'd suspect a thin black wash might go a long way to tone it down, though...
You'll need a different rules set to get a line of battle going with these ships as Ed suggests. However using the models for other game systems is perfectly possible. As to improvements, flag has to go and pennants provided instead. The insertion of the ship into the base could be improved, many of the ships seem to float above the base by 1/2mm or alternatively the base doesn't hold the ship at all so the two separate too easily. Magnetising the ships works but it's fiddly to do.
Ares is going to have more difficulty with SOG than WOG in providing variety because these ships just didnt look that different at distances. Colour schemes lacked the variety of WW1 planes and I worry we will see a steady decline of sales from each Wave as the variety proves insufficient. Merchants and pirates may help, maybe oared vessels but there will be a limit. My local shop that stocks SOG says they no longer sell all that well already...
Given the response that I experienced regarding the customized laminated ship mat/logs we used at Origins, I think such a product could be a seller for Ares. I realize this would change things regarding the current design and use of chits, but I think players will simply go ahead and make their own, otherwise.
I understand the difficulty colored pennants, such as Jim made, could be in terms of being molded onto the ships, but a pennant accessory that can be easily slipped onto the main mast would be helpful during larger games, and the ability to slip them on could be useful for prizes, i.e. changing colors.
3-D shore batteries, islands, and small boats would be nice.
In the end, I think the above would occur, most likely, through someone like Keith than Ares.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
I think this is where different classes and nations represented is key. The recent release of 1st rates and sloops are not only different from a gaming perspective, but from a visual perspective.Ares is going to have more difficulty with SOG than WOG in providing variety because these ships just didnt look that different at distances. Colour schemes lacked the variety of WW1 planes and I worry we will see a steady decline of sales from each Wave as the variety proves insufficient. Merchants and pirates may help, maybe oared vessels but there will be a limit. My local shop that stocks SOG says they no longer sell all that well already...
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Great Idea. Why didn't I think of that.
But it would be nice if I didn't have to.
Also, I don't know when they phased it out but for a time Spanish ships were very colorful, with different markings indicating different commands IIRC.
That could have changed with the crushing of the Armada, or the privateers putting a major cramp on the Spanish Main a century later, though...
I'm not sure you're right that these ships never had bright trim. I'm also not sure about being so dismissive of larger battles--sure, 15 or 20 will be a special event, but I regularly have 4 vs. 4 on the table.
Mostly I'm making the point that there's a fine line between toning down the colors a shade (which I could probably agree with), and muting the colored trim to the point where it doesn't really leave any visual impression. If the latter, I think that would be a mistake. Right now I tell ships of the same class apart primarily by the colored paint. It does seem a bit garish at times, but I would be turned off if they were all pretty much "black with white or yellow stripe" either. I would find it boring and be less inclined to keep buying if the ships weren't easy to distinguish visually, even if that requires a touch of artistic license...
-- Mini masts: Brass, and removable for easier storage
-- Ship Logs: Laminated; we've hit the limit of what can be done with non-dice RNGs
-- Ship types: The game lends itself to small-unit actions, so more small units
Also, at least in the Royal Navy, we can add some variation on the same hull colors just by switching between the Red, White or Blue Ensigns.
agree wholeheartedly
I try to fight my natural pessimism, but I have had some similar thoughts. I noticed Miniature Market still has most of the ships in wave 1, reasonably priced. Maybe I'll buy a few more, but on the other hand I kind of wish it had all sold out...there will be a limit. My local shop that stocks SOG says they no longer sell all that well already...
The game is good. It has its limits. I do not think it will work for large fleet actions. The chips do not help for this. I would say to sale the game with no ships as well would open the market for Ares. The flag pole must go. I think to let the sails and masts sold as 2 parts would help. I think most of us can glue a set of sails to the masts. To look for a model from each ship on the high seas at is time would be so a long list of models and would take years to do and in this scale would be a little bit of over kill.
Be safe
Rory
I'd like to see at least three distinct shades of blue/blue green bases sold separately. That would at least identify nationalities at a distance.
Bad fragile masts (hopefully corrected with the next release) and bad press has a lot to do with that.My local shop that stocks SOG says they no longer sell all that well already...
Gunner see my post (#4) about the masts...but yes I agree, I didn't do much before it popped off.
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.p...rpsichor-Refit
Don't know how I missed that thread, but thanks. I'll give it a shot.
One of the things on my To-Do list is take a razor-saw and trim the bottoms of my SGN ships to be perfectly flat other than the pin--some have a little molding seam still down there.
Phase Two is finding a small bolt the same size as the pin, reaming a shallow hole just big enough for a corresponding nut, shaving the bottom of the pin-socket in the base and bolting my ships down. LOL
EDIT: I think Ed has a good idea w/different colors of sea-ish hues for the bases, too.
I spray painted (6) bases dark green. I'd rather they kept production and stocking cost lower when I can do it that easily myself.
Having the sails slightly rotated to the side would be nice.
Since the 1st rates of wave 2 seam to be multipart plastic models.....sell them as sprues!
and the pegs should be on the base, not the ship, that way you could use the ships with other systems, as well flatten out the base (thickness of the base, really my only criticism).
I know Ares wants an open the box and play ship but, a good percentage of the players alter them one way or another. So why not put the masts in the box un-mounted. Main reasons being,
1. No breakage in shipping.
2. Much easier to paint.
3. Easier to customize. (trimming plastic from between mast and sail)etc.
So you have to glue them to the deck when finished. Big deal.
I checked a few of my ships that floated a little too high above water and just kept filing the bottom of the pegs until they fit flat and tight on the base. I don't know if that will work on all ships but, it's worked for me so far.
Last edited by Gunner; 06-30-2014 at 02:32.
Sadly Ed, the Wave 2 hadn't hit our shores when he told me that, so I don't think that is the main problem.
I'm with others in that maybe the whole chit system and logs are a bit too clumsy. You could use dials for half of those recording functions and do away with chits I think, or have multiple ship logs that can be photocopied and written on (a la Wooden Ships and Iron Men and many other games).
I'll have to try that. As far as the ships spinning around or falling off the stand too easily, I finally bit the bullet and bought a pack of blue-tack, and that has been working well for me.
I've been totally converted to paper-and-pencil logs--mostly because it's faster to get started playing, and more space efficient.
Drawing chits for damage seems to be working fine for me, however. It's kind of fun, and really easier than rolling dice (which would seem to involve cross-referencing with tables, possibly needing to acquire percentile or D30 dice, and the dreaded periodic die-under-the-sofa events)
One nice thing about the laminated logs is replacing the chits after drawing them - probability issues. I know some aren't in favor of replacement, but because I am, it is one more benefit to lamination for me personally.
Magnets should be arriving any day now, so I will look at your idea, Ed, of a little peg sanding where needed as we mount the magnets.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
All of the pegs I've checked so far are too long for the bases and needed to be shortened a bit.
I found that with a few ships, if I push them down onto the bases, they almost click into place. For others, either the pegs are too long as you mentioned, or there seems to be a bit of a bow in the bottom of the ship that makes a completely flat connection to the base impossible.
How is summer in Arizona these days. It has been above normal temperatures and humid here the past couple of weeks. Of course when we were at Origins, the weather here was very nice.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
Should hit 110 today, sunny clear and dryHow is summer in Arizona these days. It has been above normal temperatures and humid here the past couple of weeks. Of course when we were at Origins, the weather here was very nice.
Perhaps the whole chit system came from an essentially board game background (vs. miniatures). My gaming is primarily with miniatures oriented people and players have commented on the profusion of chits. One practical reason to switch to the paper logs is the extra table space required for the ship mats. I think the pictures of Bob's Battle of Lissa game convinced me to switch, at least for larger (convention) games.
Here it is in the 90s but humidity is around 70%. I think I would rather have the 110.
Should hit 110 today, sunny clear and dry
I think the one thing about the game that bothers me is how a ship's firepower is presented. There just isn't enough differentiating between long guns and carronades, as it has been discussed at length previously on the site.
I think that is probably true. When I used to play lots of board wargames, I was somewhat miffed with the ones that required paper logs (especially those that didn't come with a pad of sheets included), or really any bookkeeping that wasn't represented by tracks or chits on the gameboard. For small, casual games (which, I guess, is a good chunk of SoG's customer base), it may give a better feel to have no disposable elements, and no need to print/xerox/prep stuff before you start playing. In practical terms, however, the paper logs make a lot of sense, especially if you go much beyond 2 ships.
One of the things I myself would like to see is a new Starter for each wave, or at least a starter-styled "Official Storage Case" for each wave to hold one of each sculpt for that wave plus accessories. Also, frankly if they do a reprint wave with new versions I'd like to see them give the first-run reflags a rest--for example, in a Wave 1 reprint I'd keep the four original-flag ships, replace the four original reflags with four new original-flags, then add a new batch of either originals or new reflags as historical populations allow.
For example, my dream Wave 1B would look something like:
SGN101A-104A - Unchanged.
SGN101B-104B - Replaced with new SGN101C-104C British 1773 Amazon 32 or similar, British Slade Common 74, French 1777-round 32 and French Temeraire.
new SGN101D-104D - Say, another new British Amazon since there ain't a lot of captures, another British 74 for same reason, and maybe introducing the Spanish with a captured 1777-round French 32 and Temeraire.
For Wave 2B and beyond, I'd keep the top seller of each sculpt much like WGF, and definitely at least replace the "flips". I'd also like to see ship selection key in to focus on better-known battles; and while Trafalgar is a pipe-dream filling out the Nile is within the realm of possibility.
What about duel packs like with WoG? It is a less expensive way for folks to try the game.
“You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato
It is a surprising lapse. I don't have any actual historical knowledge, but with 56 ships represented in the game now, (even granted that our ships tend to skew earlier in the Revolutionary/Napoleonic time period), I would have thought there would be some significant differences in the extent to which they depended on carronade firepower. The fact that it hasn't been acknowledged at all makes me wonder whether the game designers have decided to punt this entirely.
Some of the proposals I've seen for carronade house rules do make me wonder how feasible they are to bolt onto the game system. The game seems destructive enough that I'm frankly conflicted about the prospect of introducing new reasons to draw more chits. Perhaps the designers feel that adding yet another level of carnage at B range is more than the game can support without a cascade of other changes (?)
Duel Packs would be nice too--main reason I was thinking of a Starter-style box, even an empty tray, was that I think they're some of the most effective storage around.
Actually, how I would have structured the line were I the Ares team, for each wave after #1:
Starter Box - 1 of each sculpt.
4 Duel Packs - 2 ships of similar size, say SOL/two-decker DP and frigate/smaller DP, in two different versions each. (For example, Wave 1 would have two Slade 74 vs Temeraire DP's and two 1773 Amazon vs 1777-round French 32 DP's.)
12 single Ship Packs - 3 per sculpt, one of each being a reflag, capture or clone-build.
Thus yielding a total of six distinct miniatures per sculpt per wave, or twelve additions to your fleet if you're buying enough for both A and B sides.
This is one of the reasons that my local group has decided they would rather play something different. Pity, given my investment in the game to date and of course I'll still be playing with the crowd down in Bristol once the train wreck of my life gets itself sorted out, but in some ways not that surprising.
I like the game how it is at the moment.
Hopefully they'll use a more stable system for the ship masts in the future.
Bummer. I haven't ever tried any other miniatures rules for sailing, but my limited forays into hex-based sailing games were never that gratifying. SoG is far from "realistic" but it seems to capture the feel of age-of-sail warfare more successfully for me, particularly by allowing free-form and pre-plotted movement in a relatively simple and manageable way... So I'm willing to wink at things like the carronades...
Also, I would have liked to see the damage-chit system work more like WGF/WGS where it's a different chit/card pool per weapons system and you draw more or less chits at different ranges.
Make it 32#/36#=A, 24=B, 18=C, 12=D, 9=E. Carronades you draw twice (or maybe just half again) the chits at half range, 1/2 at full. Downside: more chits. :( Upside, more individualized representation of weapons fits.
That's why southern Texas men as a rule are tough. Heat + humidity = tough & mean. It's their women that makes it pleasant.
111 & sunny today, 12% humidity. I'll take dry heat anytime.
If I remember right, DB came up with a pretty good system to better represent carronades. It did not seem that difficult to incorporate it into the game and made it easy to create your own ship stats for ships not being produced.
I have complained a bit about the lack of 19th century ships to better represent the Napoleonic period, but I wonder how well the game will portray the carronade heavy British and American ships of that period.
Here's the thread I am referring to above: http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthre...ght=carronades
Last edited by Coog; 07-01-2014 at 15:00.
WSIM is OK. Close Action is better. But I prefer minis and so do the locals.
DM, so you are half right. The idea got kicked around a bit
I dunno, we both proposed systems in that thread--it might be fun to do a "shoot-off" between the two.
TBH I've moved on. Use yours. Not fussed.
David, not trying to be argumentative--just thinking that sometimes multiple approaches and competitive evaluation make for better solutions. :) Kind of like how the Royal Navy usually asked for two competing designs to be prototyped when developing ideas for new warship configurations...
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