Slippage using the movement cards

[dutchy124]

I like the game with the exception of the movement system. I find it very difficult to move ships using the cards on the very shinny game mat. Also when things get close and personnel, it is very difficult to move without some nudging, nurdeling and slippage. I would very much like to change to a hex based system for movement which takes away these problems completely. Anyone else feel the movement cards are a problem and has anyone come up with a hex based movement system they wish to share?

I now play Hex Wing instead of X Wing for this same reason.

[Gunner]

With the large size of the SGN bases you would have to play on the floor if you used hexes to take the place of the cards.
I have ten thumbs myself and have a little problem making smooth moves on the mats. Also have trouble with the large size of the combat rulers and am now using cut down metal shirt hangers to place from firing dot to base or mast.

[David Manley]

Magister Militum sell a very nice 6x4 hex mat. Its rather bright but becomes a nice sea grey when washed. The hexes are, I think, big enough to hold a ship on a base. So it should be doable on a table top if you really wanted to do it. I have a simple set of ACW ironclad rules for use with 1/600 models and if that can work well on a dining room table then smaller AoS ships ought to.

There are enough AoS board games that use hex movement so a suitable system should be out there and readily available. I'd suggest some sort of written plotted movement - no real need to develop cards (and the card system is essentially just an alternative rendition of a pre plotted movement system anyway)

[Berthier]

A great other source for mats, can have varied hex sizes and can be back printed in a different colour or pattern

http://www.hotzmats.com/

[fredmiracle]

I wonder if you would need more space to play with hexes? with SoG, whether this is a good thing of not, you know all ships are moving within a span between 1 and 2 cards each turn. I would suppose that in a lot of sailing boardgames you are moving several hexes each turn?

[DeRuyter]

IMO the card movement system is one of the highlights of SOG. I would think that a felt mat would take care of the base slippage on the official mats (although I understand that these become less slippy with use). I 've never had a problem with bases sliding or getting bumped aside in X-Wing either. At least in casual gaming in is not a problem to make adjustments for a clumsy hand, etc.

However as David mentioned there are plenty of available hex based AOS board games to convert for miniatures.

Eric

[7eat51]

I like the movement system of SoG and WoG in terms of their appeal to non-gamers. I can teach someone the games rather quickly, and the intuitiveness of the cards has greatly reduced their apprehension in playing. I find, at times, a little problem with physically moving the ships, but, fortunately, I play with folks who grant some grace when it comes to such things as placement while moving.

In the OTT campaign on the 'Drome, one of the guys is using what amounts to a ruler split lengthwise - much easier to fit in certain spaces. I want to try something similar here, using a full ruler for measuring musket fire, etc. Another possibility is to have rulers in different lengths - for example, if you know a ship is within range, but are trying to determine if in A or B range, you could use a ruler at that cutoff; it might be easier to fit in the space, and require less eyeballing over the table as to the line. There have been times when I found removing the ship from the base necessary. I am not sure what the tradeoffs would be going to a different measuring system.

[Tradewinds Ted]

Agreed that hexes would fix the slippage problem, but you lose some of the subtlety of movement that makes this game interesting. Hexes only allow six facings, so every 60 degrees, or at a stretch you might try 30 degrees with 12 facings, but that gets complicated. That also affects the ships angle with regard to the wind, and therefore the transition between speeds at different points of sail. The slight different speeds of each ship class, and the different speeds at each sail setting are also hard to capture if ship speeds must be defined in whole numbers of hexes. To make up for that, each movement could be a large number of hexes, and the firing range adjusted accordingly, but that is probably why it was assumed above that the required play area would need to be huge if the hexes are as large as the bases.

Despite all that, you can work out a decent set of movements for a hex based system. I've tried putting something together myself several years ago, and it was promising, but I never really followed it up. I would suggest that you develop a number of possible moves that simulate the kinds of moves shown on the cards, but limit the largest motion to only a few hexes. Then the real trick is deciding which moves should be allowed for each class of ship, and at which point of sail it should be available, and at which sail settings, since it won't be possible to exactly duplicate all the movements described by the cards. I haven't tried 12 facings instead of the usual 6 facings of 60 degrees, it might be a good solution, but would require developing two sets of possible moves - one set for moves that start with a side facing, and the other for corner facings. The same with the ranges for various types of ammunition, although yo migh be able revert back to measurement for that. Either way, I would suggest using 12 possible wind directions not six, otherwise the transitions between points of sail will be too coarse.
Hmm... It might be interesting to look at this again, except that right now I'm just hoping to get some time sailing with the cards

[csadn]

Play _Wooden Ships and Iron Men_....

[dutchy124]

Thank you for all the replies shipmates.
I have only played the basic game thus far, but the advanced rules add so much extra with regard to movement that hex movement will be nigh on impossible to replicate. So it seems I am stuck with the card system or use a hex based movement system which will depart from this game immeasurably. My mate came up with the idea of painting the front and back indents white to ease lining up with the card. Also the different size measuring sticks is a good idea.

The next stage is to break out the coastal batteries for a few solo games

This is a fantastic game and can be as basic or as complex as you like. Probably my second best Kickstarter and am really chuffed I got into it.

[XRaysVision]

Honestly, I think that the movement system is what makes this game unique. Take it away and what's left is a mediocre bland game. I don't worry about the slipping and bumping. When i play or GM I make it clear that I'm not going to get wrapped around the axle over that sort of stuff.

[Gunner]

Honestly, I think that the movement system is what makes this game unique. Take it away and what's left is a mediocre bland game. I don't worry about the slipping and bumping. When i play or GM I make it clear that I'm not going to get wrapped around the axle over that sort of stuff.

Welcome to the Anchorage Ray.

[David Manley]

Play _Wooden Ships and Iron Men_....

No, play Close Action - similar system but with the bugs removed :)

[7eat51]

Hi Ray,

Stop by the Welcome Aboard forum and introduce yourself. Folks will be happy to meet you. http://sailsofglory.org/forumdisplay...Welcome-Aboard

Hope you're not getting hit too hard by these storms.

[csadn]

No, play Close Action - similar system but with the bugs removed :)

What bugs? The British lose everything except the SoL actions, just like reality. >;)

[Coog]

What bugs? The British lose everything except the SoL actions, just like reality. >;)

I wonder why that was?

[David Manley]

I wonder why that was?

Leaving aside the obvious question as to which bridge you guys have escaped from, there are a number of bugs and issues with WSIM that are apparent to those with a decent knowledge of the period and of game design.

[csadn]

Leaving aside the obvious question as to which bridge you guys have escaped from, there are a number of bugs and issues with WSIM that are apparent to those with a decent knowledge of the period and of game design.

I know -- I've seen them enumerated; and yet, I have never run across them myself. SoLs still squash frigates one-on-one; frigates still squash smaller ships one-on-one; the only real flaw I can find is how long it takes to figure out what damage is actually inflicted on a target (lots of tables and die-rolls).

[David Manley]

Ah, then you haven't really seen the big issues then. Big ship vs smaller ship isn't the issue (heck, if they couldn't get that right then you might as well toss the whole thing in the bin, right?) The real fun comes when you find how to play the tables to achieve near superhuman effects within ship categories. I won't spoil the surprise for you but there are a few combinations that are virtually unbeatable. So much so that our gaming group outlawed them, or at least called "Codex de Fromage" when someone decided to field them :)

That said, I do love WSIM. It was amongst the first Avalon Hill games I ever bought (I can't remember whether it was this or B17) and I still play it regularly.

[Diamondback]

Mildly off on a tangent... anyone ever go hunting for cheese-ball in Warhammer Trafalgar?

[DeRuyter]

Ah, then you haven't really seen the big issues then. Big ship vs smaller ship isn't the issue (heck, if they couldn't get that right then you might as well toss the whole thing in the bin, right?) The real fun comes when you find how to play the tables to achieve near superhuman effects within ship categories. I won't spoil the surprise for you but there are a few combinations that are virtually unbeatable. So much so that our gaming group outlawed them, or at least called "Codex de Fromage" when someone decided to field them :)

That said, I do love WSIM. It was amongst the first Avalon Hill games I ever bought (I can't remember whether it was this or B17) and I still play it regularly.

WS&IM was my second AH game after Panzer Leader, come to think of it those were my first two games period!

[csadn]

Ah, then you haven't really seen the big issues then. Big ship vs smaller ship isn't the issue (heck, if they couldn't get that right then you might as well toss the whole thing in the bin, right?) The real fun comes when you find how to play the tables to achieve near superhuman effects within ship categories. I won't spoil the surprise for you but there are a few combinations that are virtually unbeatable. So much so that our gaming group outlawed them, or at least called "Codex de Fromage" when someone decided to field them :)

Care to feed me a couple, so I can try them out for myself?

Mildly off on a tangent... anyone ever go hunting for cheese-ball in Warhammer Trafalgar?

A quick example of what shopping for GW games is like:



>:)

[Diamondback]

Chris, you don't have to tell me about the shop or business model... my last (which was my first) time in a GW store was my LAST.

[David Manley]

Chris, 80s tend to spring to mind :)

DB, my experience with GW shops tends to be pretty good, although I'm only in there for paints and materials, abd it helps that the staff there are into a variety of historical wargames as well as GW stuff. And our gaming group in the Mall in Bristol where we meet for WoG and SGN games is supported by the local GW store, so they cant be all bad

[csadn]

Chris, you don't have to tell me about the shop or business model... my last (which was my first) time in a GW store was my LAST.

I don't mean only the shops -- GW is infamous for Cheese. They operate on the old gaming model: "We'll publish broken rules; then we can force players to pay for the 'fixed' edition, which will be broken in a completely different way." As soon as 3D printing at home becomes economically viable, GW is finished.

[David Manley]

Of course many successful businesses run the same model. Micro$oft for instance....

[David Manley]

As soon as 3D printing at home becomes economically viable, GW is finished.

As soon as this happens (especially colour 3D printing) ALL wargaming manufacturers are finished.

[fredmiracle]

On the starship Enterprise, will people replicate some little sailing ships, play a game, and then throw them in the matter-reclaimator? Or will they just meet on the holodeck to do their miniatures gaming?

[Diamondback]

On the starship Enterprise, will people replicate some little sailing ships, play a game, and then throw them in the matter-reclaimator? Or will they just meet on the holodeck to do their miniatures gaming?

Depends... do you really see human nature evolving very far from Zappa's Theorem?
"Communism doesn't work because people LIKE to Own Stuff."

[David Manley]

Or will they just meet on the holodeck to do their miniatures gaming?

You wouldn't need to meet anyone. Go on the holodeck and fight Napoleon himself

[fredmiracle]

well those are the questions aren't they? Weren't we all supposed to have ditched our little toys by now since you could have a "richer" experience online? Instead the toys just seem to be getting more sophisticated

[Diamondback]

Here's the thing... digital stuff can never match the satisfaction of the tangible. If you can't touch it, hold it in your hand and examine it from all directions, you don't really have anything... what you have is a nebulous abstraction, easily swept into the void of nothingness by the slightest power surge, drive crash or twitch from whoever's hosting your "cloud" storage.

[David Manley]

Plus your digital abstraction can suddenly malfunction and try to destroy your house/ship/planet.

Maybe 3D printing could have similar effects????

[7eat51]

Here's the thing... digital stuff can never match the satisfaction of the tangible. If you can't touch it, hold it in your hand and examine it from all directions, you don't really have anything

Are you talking about games or Facebook, Twitter, etc.? I am always amazed when I see folks at a restaurant/cafe/coffee shop sitting at a table, and instead of talking to each other, everyone is on their electronic devices. I appreciate online resources, otherwise I wouldn't be here, but the orientation to disregard what is actually physically present for what is virtually present is becoming excessive, IMO.

[Diamondback]

Take my electronic reference library, for example--it has the advantage of portability in that I can carry hundreds of 'books' everywhere I go, but as demonstrated earlier all it takes to turn all that into nothing is one drive crash.

I'm talking about physical vs. cyber assets in ANY context, the larger "macro" view. Each has its trade-offs, but... one is reality, the other is an illusion that depends on a lot of things for sustenance. A power surge won't kill your minis... lol (Not unless it starts a fire, anyway.)

Besides, if you decorate your office with physical miniatures, people think you're quirky, but if they see something like World of Warplanes or Sid Meier's Pirates! on the second screen, you get ****canned.

And yes, I'm one of those people hidden behind a laptop screen, but that's largely because I'm analyzing data and grabbing notes for offline use a lot of the time.

[David Manley]

Ah, I see myself as a happy blend of the two. I have an extensive electronic library which is ideal for when I travel (and I keep backups ). I have many of those books - and many more besides - in hard copy. Each format has its set of benefits and drawbacks.

[DeRuyter]

Are you talking about games or Facebook, Twitter, etc.? I am always amazed when I see folks at a restaurant/cafe/coffee shop sitting at a table, and instead of talking to each other, everyone is on their electronic devices. I appreciate online resources, otherwise I wouldn't be here, but the orientation to disregard what is actually physically present for what is virtually present is becoming excessive, IMO.

This reminded me of a Chevy commercial I saw the other day. Four office workers going to lunch all on their phones, not talking mind you, but tapping. The driver asks where would they like to go for lunch, but no one looks up. To get their attention (and here's where you suspend disbelief!) he floors his new Malibu when the light turns green and snaps their heads back with the sudden acceleration, prompting another to ask where to for lunch?

[Пилот]

On the starship Enterprise, will people replicate some little sailing ships, play a game, and then throw them in the matter-reclaimator? Or will they just meet on the holodeck to do their miniatures gaming?

I keep waiting on wargamer Tesla-guy to emerge and create holographic 3D projector - you know, nothing too complicated, just cheap pocket super-computer specialized in wargaming