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Thread: Use of damage tokens as markers

  1. #1
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    Default Use of damage tokens as markers

    Please excuse me if this is a naïve question, if it has been addressed elsewhere or if I have misunderstood the rules. As I understand it when damage tokens are drawn from the appropriate bag they are then used to mark damage to a particular ship rather than being returned to the bag and some other type of token being used to mark the damage. What is the rationale behind this use of the tokens? The reason I ask is that the removal of tokens from the bag could substantially alter the probabilities for the next draw. For example suppose in one encounter the ship being fired upon drew a number of high damage tokens, these are then effectively removed from the game and consequently damage suffered by ships (possibly totally different ones to those in the original encounter) would be proportionally less severe. Personally I cannot think of any reason why this variation on probability of damage should occur or what real world effect it simulates, but I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this.

    This would also make simulating damage using dice, as I have seen suggested elsewhere on the site, work in a different way to the token system because the dice rolls would always have a fixed probability every time that they are rolled, rather than the varying probabilities as discussed above.

    Finally, to ask a related but slightly different question, once a ship is lost (surrendered, sunk or off the map) are the damage tokens returned to the appropriate bag or do they remain out of play for the remainder of the game?

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    Welcome to the entertaining world of SGN combat outcome probabilities In fact the mere act of firing on an enemy vessel alters the probability of causing subsequent damage. There is no real world effect being modelled here (just as there isn't in the card drawing damage system in WGF or the chit drawing system in WGS), its just a feature of the game system itself.

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    oh, and in answer to your last para question - yes, when a ship surrenders its chits are returned to the relevant bags or pots.

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    Keith, welcome to the debate.

    I think you will see different camps forming up. Personally, I am aligned with the thought of returning damage counters for the probability reason stated. When playing WGF, I try to mitigate this a bit by using 4 decks. With SoG, I see a bit of difference due to the amount of chits potentially drawn in a round - much more than the 1-2 card average per firing plane in WGF. Furthermore, with SoG, the ship mat and logs create possibilities for damage recording that the cockpits don't quite match in WGF. I am unclear as to the solution I will adopt for SoG, but my mind is turning on this one.

    Once a ship is surrendered, sunk, etc., all counters are shuffled back into the mix. This assumes of course players are not allowing the possibility of a surrendered ship to re-engage in some way, e.g. fleeing once the battle moves to a different sector.

    Edit: what is the word - ninjaed?

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    Hi David, Eric,

    Thank you for the welcome, I should have realised that there would be an underlying debate for this . My initial thought was that keeping the probabilities the same (dice method) would be more accurate but the more I think about it I see that the varying probabilities is just another method of representing the fortunes of war. To draw an analogy I suppose it like comparing roulette where the probabilities are fixed with every roll to blackjack where the cards that have been played in previous hands determine probabilities for subsequent hands. Of course as in the case of blackjack if someone is an adept card counter (or token counter in the case of SoG) they can alter their play accordingly, particularly once token numbers are low. For myself my aging memory probably isn't up to the job of making such assessments, so I am happy either way with the proviso that results from the two methods may be mutually incompatible. In fact it might be interesting to try out both methods to see if one or the other makes a significant difference.

    One reason why I was interested was that I am currently taking some online courses in Android programming and it occurred to me that it might be a useful exercise to write something that would take care of some of the accounting that goes with SoG, purely for my own use of course I don't want to step on any copyright toes. This is particularly useful to me as I only have a small flat and finding space to play the game alongside using the ship mats is already a little difficult. While thinking about this it occurred to me that simply simulating the constant probability (dice roll) method would be significantly easier than the varying probability (token draw/mark) method.

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    Hi, guys!

    Dice system is good solution, and it would be very nice if we could persuade Royal Hajj to put SoG customized D30 (and D6 for E damage) into production. Chits still could be used to represent actual damage suffered by ship - so this would give new flavour to playing. Or, certain number of extra chits could be made, to use them on Damage track.

    Even using one set of each damage counters per player could resolve probability problem. And, actualy, I'm in process of making my sets.

    (Lack of) Space can be serious problem. When four ships are in the game, lots of space is needed. And that's the biggest game I've played so far. For bigger games, with 8 or more ships, ship mats could be very inconveniant. I'm thinking of making mats looking like table calendar (Delta profile). But, such mats will need some kind of "steps" оr "shelfs" (or even "windows") to keep counters stable. And in this way, about half surface occupied by mats could be saved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    I'm thinking of making mats looking like table calendar (Delta profile). But, such mats will need some kind of "steps" оr "shelfs" (or even "windows") to keep counters stable. And in this way, about half surface occupied by mats could be saved.
    One possibility might be to use steel paper under the mats and attach magnets to the counter but it might run a bit expensive.

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    Keith,

    It crossed my mind. And it's also good idea. But, I'm still considering options

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    I know removal of chits from the pool changes the future draws, but it seems to me this was a core design decision and I think changing the way it's handled in the game would change some of the fundamental play. As mentioned, it's like comparing blackjack (limited pool of cards that is reduced during the course of the game) with roulette (consistent but random). Neither is superior to the other but neither can be introduced to the other game without changing the game itself. If all cards were shuffled back into the blackjack deck after each hand it would REALLY change the game.

    I was considering a second set of chits for larger games, but am so far finding enough sunk/surrendered ships late in the game to return a fair number of chits back into the pool (which itself serves to change the game again from that point). Maybe if we were playing 5+ ships per side with several being SoL (hold onto damage a lot longer than Frigates) an extra set would be needed.

    This is my first game I've played in my 30+ years of various wargames that uses a system like this and right now I'm just accepting it as part of the fundamental design and enjoying it for how it plays.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf03809 View Post
    I know removal of chits from the pool changes the future draws, but it seems to me this was a core design decision and I think changing the way it's handled in the game would change some of the fundamental play.
    That's a fair point and one of my reasons for posting the question was to see if anyone knew what the thinking was behind the design. I thought that here was a good place to ask because the site seems to be the de facto unofficial (or possibly semi-official) forum for the game. I wonder if the designer has talked about his work on the game anywhere, or if he would be willing to discuss his thoughts on the game in a Q&A session somewhere.

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    I would be extremely curious to know what real world effect was being modelled here, if indeed it should transpire to be the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf03809 View Post
    ...
    it's like comparing blackjack (limited pool of cards that is reduced during the course of the game) with roulette (consistent but random).
    ...
    But, blackjack is based on different idea then roulette - in blackjack, at least, you can remember some of the cards.

    So, example of blackjack in SoG would be:

    6s and 5s are gone, our SoLs can't lose one box by one counter! Ramming speed!*

    And roulette:
    Fact that he suffered triple 6 and double 5 dosen't mean we are not going to suffer it, too.

    (*God forbid phrase "ramming speed" has to do something with the idea of Oars of Glory )
    Last edited by Пилот; 02-04-2014 at 16:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    (*God forbid phrase "ramming speed" has to do something with the idea of Oars of Glory )
    Or "Steamers of Glory", when the inevitable American Civil War game comes about. (Read up on "Ellet's brigade".)

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    "Steamers of Glory"
    Sounds like one of those kind of products on an infomercial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    Sounds like one of those kind of products on an infomercial.
    Sounds like a kind of X-rated film even *I* don't want to talk about much.... >;)

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    Someone raised the same point over on BGG, interestingly it elicited a reply from one of the design team indicating the thinking behind the method. In particular saying that it is mainly intended for ease of play rather than some deep simulation method and suggesting some alternatives if you prefer to reuse counters.

    http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14970688#14970688

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Or "Steamers of Glory", when the inevitable American Civil War game comes about. (Read up on "Ellet's brigade".)
    Is that what you get when you overstuff yourself with food from a roach coach that failed its last health department inspection?

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    The discussion of probabilities amongst gamers is always fascinating. Often times in such discussions though many of the actual variables that do occur are all too often over looked. Those variables, if they are accounted for or not, have an effect on the out come of any given probability.

    Just as in Black Jack most casinos now use 6 or more decks at a time, and when the card level reaches a certain point (red line if you will) that box is changed out for a new full one. This is done to help prevent the card counting players from gaining a bigger advantage over the house.

    When rolling a single die it's fairly easy to figure the probability of any single number coming up, however if all the variables are not accounted for that does change the probability for every number. So you can make it as easy, or even predictable as you like, but it doesn't always mean one way is better then another!

    I guess the real question you have to answer for yourself is, does it make the game faster, better, more fun, or enhance your enjoyment in play? Whatever you decide just be sure you ask yourself the right questions then follow the answers that satisfy you.

    The current system SoG uses may not be the best probable in the "historical" sense, but I do think some thought was put into it to make it work within the game.

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    When you predict something, you can expect worst result and just hope for the best. And plan accordingly. Otherways, surprise is on it's way. And, I agree, it should be fun.

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    After several games (and I love this game - so much fun ... but I have run aground twice ) my fellow gamers and I pondered how the probabilities were effected and how the zeroes kept getting reduced in the pool.

    We answered it this way: perhaps the initial shots did not penetrate the hull and did minor damage .... as the zeroes are used up this increases the likelihood of a damaged section of hull being pierced by the shot.

    We accepted this reasoning happily and continued attempting to sink each other with youthful exuberance

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    I knew there had to be a rationalization <uh> I mean logical justification for the chit system

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Blozinski View Post
    Is that what you get when you overstuff yourself with food from a roach coach that failed its last health department inspection?
    Take the "l" out of "glory", and you're there.... >:)

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