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Thread: When does a ship surrender?

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    Default When does a ship surrender?

    A question came up at our game last night about when a ship surrenders. The situation was a ship with leaks took on water that filled the last hull box. But it still had crew available and so could pump water and remove the flooding counter during the action phase. So, should the ship strike its colors immediately when the flooding occurred during the damage escalation phase or only at the end of the turn if all the hull or crew boxes are filled?

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    I would think the crew could resist surrendering maybe but I think this would happen next.

    Strike your colors!

    Never!

    Are You absolutely positive?

    OK point made!

    Actually I think the way I would play this would be the ship surrenders when the last box is full even if it is due to a leak, otherwise you could have ships using a repair action if they have the crew, or still firing until they are sunk or a myriad of other possibilities which would make it so that you either kill everyone on board or sink the ship just to be certain they won't be back. Which in my understanding was not the way naval battles would be fought in that time frame. Much better for the losers to live another day and the victors to capture a prize.

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    I'd say "end of turn only"; there's a chance that a ship that badly battered will be ignored by healthier ships, so it can then repair its damage and slip away. Most of the accounts of battles I've read, if a ship wasn't actually firing, it tended to be ignored in favor of ships still resisting.

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    I'm with Chris (#2), end of turn only.

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    Wouldn't surrender be at the discretion of the player, regardless of when it occurs, leaving both sides to think through their options? If I choose to surrender, I surrender, and if later I realize that I might have escaped, my loss.

    To make surrender a meaningful possibility (other than a gentlemen's game), it seems some type of point system would have to be in play in which surrendered ships are less damaging to a final score than having the entire crew obliterated, or that a captured crew could be traded for another captured crew, and maintain captain/crew cards, assuming a campaign game. Otherwise, I can easily see some players forcing an opponent to take the final shot, even if a real captain would have struck colors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Wouldn't surrender be at the discretion of the player, regardless of when it occurs, leaving both sides to think through their options? If I choose to surrender, I surrender, and if later I realize that I might have escaped, my loss.

    To make surrender a meaningful possibility (other than a gentlemen's game), it seems some type of point system would have to be in play in which surrendered ships are less damaging to a final score than having the entire crew obliterated, or that a captured crew could be traded for another captured crew, and maintain captain/crew cards, assuming a campaign game. Otherwise, I can easily see some players forcing an opponent to take the final shot, even if a real captain would have struck colors.
    Ideally, it would be player's call -- but given how mule-headed some gamers [cough] can be, I am now picturing the naval version of The Black Knight from _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_.

    "Right -- I'll do you for that!"
    "You'll *what*!?"
    "C'm'ere!"
    "What're ya gonna do -- bleed on me!?"
    "I'm HMS _Invincible_!"
    "You're HMS _Loony_!"

    :)

    And in most games, capturing ships *adds* to the VP total, which makes the mule-headedness even worse.

    Part of the problem, natch, is: This is a game -- in Reality, when someone is about to die horribly with no chance of inflicting harm on the opponent, that's when he throws in the towel. In a game, of course, there's no blood-percentage, so there's no encouragement to "being realistic" when one is Screwed.

    The least-pessimal solution I can think of is a points-scoring system where players start with a number of points, and mainly *subtract* from that number; the "winner" is more accurately defined as "the one who loses the least". In that case, capturing a ship means the capturing player can add what's left of it to his total, while the captured player has to subtract it from his; while sinking ship outright means the player who lost it subtracts it from his total, but the player who sank it gets 0 for doing so.

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    Chris, I think the Monty Python comparison is a good one.

    I think if you want to encourage folks to surrender in a way more consistent with history, you have to reward them for doing so, or punish them more severely for not. This assumes, of course, that one is playing with folks who are like the Black Knight.

    In a campaign game, this can be easy done via some form of XP that can be used toward skill improvement. If you fight to the death, you start over. If you surrender, some mechanism can be in place for returning to your side and fighting again another day - the experience goes with you. Even in defeat, you could learn something that propels you forward.

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    Having re-read the rules (which are downloads from a while ago so I'm not sure they were final edition) the ship surrenders immediately on all hull or crew boxes being full, not at the end of the turn. But it wouldn't be true gaming if we didn't modify the rules to our want would it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    Having re-read the rules (which are downloads from a while ago so I'm not sure they were final edition) the ship surrenders immediately on all hull or crew boxes being full, not at the end of the turn.
    Well I don't have access to the rules so I haven't weighed in. But this makes most sense to me. A ship in a weird no hull point zombie state seems like asking for confusion and dispute.

    I also don't have any problem with it. If the ship is burning/leaking so badly that it's on the verge of destruction, then of course the crew will continue to try to keep it afloat so they don't all die; but it seems reasonable for them to run up the white flag first so they can devote all their attention to that effort...

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    Yes, just confirmed, the basic rules state on page 18, "If, at any time, all the boxes of either the ship damage track or the crew damage track are covered by a counter the ship surrenders and is removed from the gaming table".

    The rule is not modified in either the Standard or Advanced rules.

    And the damage repair rules are clear that damage is only repaired at the end of the turn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Yes, just confirmed, the basic rules state on page 18, "If, at any time, all the boxes of either the ship damage track or the crew damage track are covered by a counter the ship surrenders and is removed from the gaming table".

    The rule is not modified in either the Standard or Advanced rules.

    And the damage repair rules are clear that damage is only repaired at the end of the turn.
    Thank you David. That makes sense that it would be immediate when the boxes are full. Like when the pumps are overwhelmed the ship goes down despite having crew still alive to pump.

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    Also, if there is not a clear cut stopping point, some gamers might just try to become a spoiler and do things because they already know they lost. The real captain would be more in a ship/crew management role knowing he was out of the fight for that day.

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    Thanks for the great discussion. Let me weigh in with a bit more of our thinking. From the game perspective the point in the turn in which the ship surrenders is a bit moot. The ship is out of the fighting for the game. Even if it is allowed to try to stay afloat and get off the board, it counts as surrendered for the game scenario. So apart from the story of the gallant crew heroically trying to save the ship, the situation I started this thread with has no bearing. It actually becomes an issue if you are starting to think about campaigns. We envision the situation of a badly battered ship limping back to port, barely kept afloat by constant pumping. So, to slightly shift the focus of this thread, what does surrender mean. It is clear what surrender means in the game. The ship is no longer in the game and counts toward the opponents victory. In reality, what did a ship striking actually mean? I have read a fair amount of both history and fiction of age of sail, but I am not certain I know the answer. Did striking mean actual and immediate surrender, or was it an indication that the ship would no longer fight and if boarded would not resist being taken as a prize? I suspect this had more to do with honor than law of the sea, although I suppose it could have been covered somewhere in the laws of war. If it was a case of honor, what did honor demand? Was a ship that had struck free to attempt to leave the area and make it back to a home port or was it obliged to heave to and wait to be boarded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Smith View Post
    In reality, what did a ship striking actually mean? I have read a fair amount of both history and fiction of age of sail, but I am not certain I know the answer. Did striking mean actual and immediate surrender, or was it an indication that the ship would no longer fight and if boarded would not resist being taken as a prize? I suspect this had more to do with honor than law of the sea, although I suppose it could have been covered somewhere in the laws of war. If it was a case of honor, what did honor demand? Was a ship that had struck free to attempt to leave the area and make it back to a home port or was it obliged to heave to and wait to be boarded?
    It varied widely with the ship captain. In most cases, hauling down the colors meant "I'm out; stop shooting me". For obvious reasons, if someone was actively shooting at one, one would direct one's surrender to that ship (when two or more ships were engaging a target, it became a Big Deal who took the surrender -- prize money, and in later cases medals). However, it was possible to simply run down one's colors, or otherwise signal one was no longer in the fight, to no one in particular. For their part, the "winners" didn't necessarily *have* to accept (see next paragraph); it was considered proper to respect a surrender unless forced to do otherwise. (See the various controversies re USS _President_ for examples of how confusing the process could become.)

    There's instances (usually in the Med with the Barbary Pirates) of surrenders being "faked" -- the colors would be run down, then when a boat was sent or the "winner" had closed in, the colors would be run back up. After a while, the other side got the message, and would not stop shooting until everyone on the other side was either dead, crippled, or cowering.

    There's also instances of ships which had "surrendered" suddenly finding themselves no longer under the guns of the enemy and trying to slip away, and even instances (such as during the storm following Trafalgar) where a captured ship with a prize crew would be retaken by the original crew.

    This is why, to be blunt, the game's surrender rules are purely "gamey": Unless the "winner" is willing to detach a functional ship to ride herd on a surrendered ship, it's entirely possible for the "loser" to get away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Yes, just confirmed, the basic rules state on page 18, "If, at any time, all the boxes of either the ship damage track or the crew damage track are covered by a counter the ship surrenders and is removed from the gaming table".

    The rule is not modified in either the Standard or Advanced rules.

    And the damage repair rules are clear that damage is only repaired at the end of the turn.
    Not exactly. Just two paragraphs lower, make sure that any shots from a ship on the turn it surrenders are still counted. The combat phase is simultaneous. Since combat is only followed by reloading, a ship surrenders at the end of the combat phase, not immediately.

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    I think David's immediately applied to the immediate phase the game was in since everything is simultaneous. But it never hurts to spell things out sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    I think David's immediately applied to the immediate phase the game was in since everything is simultaneous. But it never hurts to spell things out sometimes.
    Indeed, on both counts :)

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    Question to be clear. Using page 19 for the example. I surrender at end of the turn if ship damage column 010 is covered with the next box being X. Or I surrender when the last crew damage 1 is covered with the next box being X.

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    You surrender at the end of the end of the Combat phase when the last stat box of either damage track is covered up. So, even if that last box only had 1 point of damage in it, you would surrender at the end of that Combat phase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

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    Wanted to be sure. Thanks.

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    No worries, this is what the site is here for!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    You surrender at the end of the end of the Combat phase when the last stat box of either damage track is covered up. So, even if that last box only had 1 point of damage in it, you would surrender at the end of that Combat phase.
    So, here's my question. Are there any ships whose last box isn't 1 point? The only reason I ask is I've seen two words applied to the last box; full and covered. If they're all 1's then it doesn't make any difference, but if there's any higher value than 1 point then "covered" takes precedence over "full"? Sounds nit picky, but I've known some gamer types who would make an issue out of it.

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    Nightmoss Hajj was talking about a counter with 1 point on it. Not how many broadsizes\men are under the counter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasperrdm View Post
    Nightmoss Hajj was talking about a counter with 1 point on it. Not how many broadsizes\men are under the counter.
    Correct. The broadside number makes on difference and neither does the box only being partially filled or being totally filled.

    SURRENDERING OF A SHIP
    If, at any time, all the boxes of either the Ship
    Damage track or the Crew Damage track are covered
    by a counter, the ship surrenders and is removed
    from the gaming table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Correct. The broadside number makes on difference and neither does the box only being partially filled or being totally filled.
    SURRENDERING OF A SHIP
    If, at any time, all the boxes of either the Ship
    Damage track or the Crew Damage track are covered
    by a counter, the ship surrenders and is removed
    from the gaming table.
    Thanks, that answers my question.

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    So, that should simulate situation when, even the captain had a chance to recover ship, he surrenders because everything seems lost?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    So, that should simulate situation when, even the captain had a chance to recover ship, he surrenders because everything seems lost?
    You make him sound a little cowardly :) Let's put it this way--the ship is under gunnery attack. The captain judges that at that moment, his ship has no meaningful fighting capacity (which is true) and to let his men continue to get pounded while in that state would just waste their lives for nothing, so he hauls down the colors.

    (and as others have pointed out, in real life what happened after that moment could vary, and you might want to reflect that if you are playing a campaign game where ships carry over from one battle to another.)

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    I agree, your explanation sounds better :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by fredmiracle View Post
    (and as others have pointed out, in real life what happened after that moment could vary, and you might want to reflect that if you are playing a campaign game where ships carry over from one battle to another.)
    I think the problem here is the use of the word "surrendered" -- as has been pointed out, a ship which was no longer shooting at the enemy typically was ignored in favor of those ships which still were resisting; so it's not strictly correct to say "a ship which isn't capable of fighting is surrendered".

    A historically-accurate (there's *that* phrase again...) rule would be "when the last box in either row has a mark on it, the unit is 'hors de combat' -- it may not fire upon enemy units, or resist boardings, but may still attempt repairs (to include fighting fires, pumping water, etc.). If the unit can effect repairs such that it can attempt escape, or even return to the fight, it may do so at the player's discretion".

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    I suppose we have to look at this surrender porblem from two sides, the historical and the game.

    Historically ships "struck" their colours as a signal that they were no longer willing/capable of resistance the two most common ways this would occur was firstly after being boarded and defeated in melee the flag was typically cut down by the victors and the crew then surrendered and were locked below with a prize crew placed on board to take control of the vessel. It was rare in these circumstances for the ship to be retaken unless it was engaged by another enemy vessel which also boarded later.

    The second instance of striking would typically occur when
    - the ship had taken too much damage, possibly even in a condition where all crew were needed simply to keep it from foundering
    - or the crew itself was so severely cut up
    - or thirdly the will to fight was so low
    that the ranking officer would haul down the national colours indicating their wish to give up the fight. Often the ranking officer was not the Captain as they were frequently already wounded or dead. There are numerous cases of striking being ordered by low ranked Lt's or even senior crewmen when all the officers were down. This second condition of striking (I dont like the term surrendering in the historical context prior to the surrender of swords) is what is causing some problems in the game system it seems to me.

    When striking but not having been boarded, the ship was usually no longer fired upon. This left them to undertake emergency repairs etc. In one on one battles or small engagements, the victor would normally immediately send a boat over to the striken vessel to accept a formal surrender, the ranking officer offering his sword to the boats' officer which was usually returned to the officer as a mark of respect, the prize crew then taking over the running of the ship and the enemy crew locked below unless needed for keeping the ship afloat. In cases where the battle turned against the nation who had sent the prize crew, it did occur that the ship was retaken. Sometimes the ship was retaken after the battle if the ships were scattered and no support could be had from another friendly ship. Most of these circumstances of being retaken I feel should be disregarded in the game where you are simply playing a battle, they didnt happen frequently enough and would add too little benefit for a lot of rules. As the SOG system does not appear to be able to handle large fleet battles, the "de-striking" by a ship's crew of a non boarded vessel seems less needed.

    Campaign games are quite different. In this situation I think after the completion of each battle, captured ships should be set aside and a die (D10) rolled. EG: On a dice roll 1 - ship sinks before returning to victors port 2- ship returns to victors port but broken up 3-9 ship succesfully returns to victors port and is refit being out of service for x months (another DR?) 10/0 -ship is retaken by crew and returns to friendly port also needing a refit roll. Refit rolls would be affected by the ports capacity to do repairs, a major port obviously being able to do these quicker than a minor one. Victory points are then awarded for ships brought into the victor's navy, less for those lost at sea, slightly more for those broken up. VP's would also be awarded based on the size of the ship for the morale boost achieved by the battle itself.

    There's no perfect system and we could find cases that would contradict any rules that might be developed so keeping it simple and plausible is the main goal. Anyway there's my 2c!

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    The big problem I see is the "remove from table"--that's like teleporting it out of a battle, when in reality it would still block Line of Fire. Maybe "control transfers to the player controlling the ship it's surrendered to"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The big problem I see is the "remove from table"--that's like teleporting it out of a battle, when in reality it would still block Line of Fire. Maybe "control transfers to the player controlling the ship it's surrendered to"?
    Yes, we will definitely use the optional rule to keep surrendered ships around on the board. And in a campaign context, we will definitely use the overall circumstances at the end of the battle to determine what the final outcome is for each of the ships that surrendered.

    But I think the rule captures the immediate realities of ships being knocked out of the fight just fine...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The big problem I see is the "remove from table"--that's like teleporting it out of a battle, when in reality it would still block Line of Fire. Maybe "control transfers to the player controlling the ship it's surrendered to"?
    If control passes over, should the controlling ship reduce its crew size to reflect manning the captured ship?

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    That would be logical, if they choose to put on a prize crew... other options I could see would be "torch and abandon" or "just set adrift" at capturer's choice.

    Point is, you teleport a ship off MY table and I'm gonna start making references to the Protoss from StarCraft... "Teleport successful!" And that however it's controlled or uncontrolled, just because it's no longer fighting shouldn't mean it no longer blocks line of fire unless either it drifts or the LOF's move around it.

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    According to "Other Rules", after it executes its final move, it remains stationary as a wreck. With your suggestion of control, putting a prize crew onboard could enable the controlling player to remove the ship before it is recaptured, and as such, should come at some form of cost - maybe 1 crew.

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    Reasonable enough. Maybe two... one, you need your own topmen to handle the rigging, and two, you need somebody to corral whatever prisoners there are unless you can somehow keep them all locked up. Unless you can pull a JPJ: "Either you man the pumps and help keep us afloat or we ALL drown..."

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    Surrendered ship surely should be left in the field, and not removed. It physically exists and it blocks line of fire. It also can collide.

    I agree that it's crew should be allowed to repair it (in campaign terms), but for an off-game, rules as they are, are enough.

    If prize crew is sent to claim the ship (in campaign), winner ship should send at least two teams - one to keep prisoners, other to man the ship. Those factors should be taken from winning ship.

    So:

    2 teams sent: crew on captured ship has 1 box; winner's boxes are reduced by 2.
    3 teams sent: crew on captured ship has 2 boxes; winner's boxes are reduced by 3.
    4 teams sent: crew on captured ship has 3 boxes; winner's boxes are reduced by 4.
    etc.

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    I say, pick up the surrendered ship and put it in your pocket. Let the enemy procure a new ship from his LGS.

    Just kidding. ??

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    Well, if you can support your action , who knows ( )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    I say, pick up the surrendered ship and put it in your pocket. Let the enemy procure a new ship from his LGS.

    Just kidding. ??
    Good way to get a broken hand in my house. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Good way to get a broken hand in my house. lol
    I have quick hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    I have quick hands.
    You had quick hands, you mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tradewinds Ted View Post
    You had quick hands, you mean.
    I HAVE quick hands.

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