Anyone else think SOG KS Delivery is a fiasco?

[Old Ironsides]

I have been reading the KS comments and even posted a few myself.

I love the product Ares puts out as a gaming company. As far as managing the logistics of the KS Delivery I think they are making some huge mistakes by sticking to the Jan street date.

As of update 58 about 70% has been shipped. What they do not say is that the 30% are the majority of the backers who pledged the most and therfore have the largest most complicated orders to fill. These are also the backers who took Ares at their word that they would have the product weeks before the normal retail chain.

Now it has been revealed that through errors some distributors already have the product and it has hit the streets in some cases. Ares has changed the street to 13 JAN, but cleary that is not going to get the backers their product weeks before the normal retailers if they get the rewards before them at all.

Full disclosure I only pledged at the captain level and received by rewards on 19 and 20 DEC. I have a freind who like Keith pledged multiple Admiral levels for his online store. He had many orders cancel prior to X-mas due to the fact Ares could not deliver on their many wishful promises. Now other retailers in his area are going to get the game at the same time or even ahead of him when he like all of us supported the game and gave them money 8+ months in advance. I think this is a very poor decison on Ares part and I think they owe these backers something to compensate them for the breach of promise.

I also hope Ares is taking notice if they ever plan to do a KS again. Whoever they hired for supply chain management should be fired! Sending our personal information out once via emial(I received 213 emails for other backers) was bad enough in this age of identity theft. Now doing it a second time is unforgiveable. If you are one whose personal information was sent to the second person you can only hope they deleted it as I did. Shameful!

Like I said I love their product, but like most gaming companies supply is not Ares fortay.

It is time for Ares to stop posting the wishful thinking and misleading information and man up that this has been a debacle. Since they are not going to honor the early deliver for "ALL" backers I hope they are considering some sort of compensation especially for those who have yet to receive product and were some of the largest backers.

Thoughts?

[Gaz67]

In short, no matter what way they do anything someone will be unhappy, there will always be those who "demand" they get to be first.


Plus it's not like anyone didn't know that there may be delays, from the kickstarter "Sails of Glory" page ,

The main risk at this stage is that the project might be delayed with respect
to its scheduled date, if this should become necessary to ensure the level of quality we are looking for in our games in general, and in this product specifically,

[Old Ironsides]

In short, no matter what way they do anything someone will be unhappy, there will always be those who "demand" they get to be first.

Very true, but I find if you honor your promises and do not make promises you cannot honor life is much easier. Right now it does not appear they are doing either.

In all honesty I feel like they are so close to release they they just see $ signs and are forgetting the ones who helped get them there. I realise there were delays and some of these delays may have helped them produce a better product. With the delays all dates should have been "realistically" pushed back so they could honor the promise to the ALL KS backers. Even if all KS gets delivered by 10 JAN it does not fulfill the promise that we would have it weeks before the retail chain.

I am only talking about the U.S. Who knows when our gaming friends worldwide will see their rewards.

[fast.git]

I am willing to accept that the demands of supplying their customers was beyond the capabilities of Ares to deliver. Their bad.

I'm not happy about it, but there's little I can do about it. I will most likely not support another of their KS campaigns, however, as this one has been a disappointment. And yes, I understood the risks inherent in a KS. What has raised my ire is that I may very well be able to purchase this game online before I have my KS in hand... at a lower price point than I paid to help Ares make this game a reality. And that was my bad. Lesson learned.

I may receive my order in the next couple of days. Or, I may not. One thing is certain, the bloom is off the rose.

[HMS Lydia]

There is a very large discussion about this on BGG. And I think Update #58 shows that this didn't go off the way Ares intended. I respect a company that takes responsibility for it's actions (especially when they mess up). I read the update as an apology.

Looks like my stuff will be delivered today, but many people in this area still don't have any shipping info. I have a good friend that pledged at Captain level no add ons to speak of, I'm Commodore, my stuff will be delivered today. There is no evidence his has left the warehouse.

[fast.git]

There is a very large discussion about this on BGG. And I think Update #58 shows that this didn't go off the way Ares intended. I respect a company that takes responsibility for it's actions (especially when they mess up). I read the update as an apology.

I agree that Update #58 sounds as though it's an apology. I disagree that Ares' apology is an example of them taking responsibility for their actions.

[Gaz67]

That's the problem with reading something as opposed to hearing something, hard sometimes to tell exactly what is meant..

[The Royal Hajj]

1,183 backers, 14 different pledge levels, 35 different add on options. Someone else has to do the math, but that has to be a huge number for possible order combinations. So yeah, shipping is going to take a while. Did Ares make mistakes during the KS, yes they did. They made the mistake of giving us too optimistic of a release date. But had they said Jan 2014 in the initial KS, I highly doubt most of us would have committed to it.

As a retailer that backed the KS, it does kind of suck that non KS backing stores will have it around the same time as I do, but it's not the end of the world. Most people are going to buy it from "their" store anyways. Actually, the KS its self hurts me sales wise way more than not getting a week or so jump on other stores. 99% of the members of this forum that joined before the KS was announced were highly potential customers for me. The KS took every single one of them away from ordering through AA.

And it cost me more to back the KS than to simply place a retail order (for multiple reasons), but I did not back it for the retail aspect of it. I backed it because I want to show my support for the game (although I hope Ares realizes my support for them and their products by now. lol) and to help ensure we got the best game we could.

This was their first KS and I think they've done a pretty good job with it. I hope they were able to apply some of the lessons learned to their Galaxy Defenders KS, even thought it started just shortly after.

[The Royal Hajj]

I agree that Update #58 sounds as though it's an apology. I disagree that Ares' apology is an example of them taking responsibility for their actions.

And what do you think they should do to take responsibility for these actions?

[fast.git]

And what do you think they should do to take responsibility for these actions?

I don't have any idea... I'm not at all certain that they can, or would if they could. My response to HMS Lydia was that I didn't consider an "apology" to be "taking responsibility." I would be the first person to offer a suggestion if I could find a reasonable one.

[HMS Lydia]

Kieth, in another thread you indicated that you had received your retail order. Of course you can't fill any orders with it yet. But the point is, if you have your retail order you can be others do as well, and it is certain distributors have theirs. No retailer or distributor should have received anything until all KS backers received ther stuff. Yes, I consider that an error. What do I expect them to do about it. Nothing! I'm okay with the fact that Ares realizes that this didn't go the way planned. I don't think there was an intentional thought to withhold anything from backers, or purposely delay it getting out. This was just a little poor planning and coordination. Ares is the warehouse/distributors customer as such there should have been some control over order of shipping.

The product shipped to distributors and retailers for the most part will sit on shelves until the street date. The warehouseman that picked that order could have picked an order to KS backer, who would have made use of it over the holiday season. Look I'm not mad and I'm certainly going to continue to support Ares and the game. It was an mistake. I appeciate the KS update and that satisfies me. Will it satisfy everyone, probably not.

[Gaz67]

To my mind the only thing that Ares has really done BADLY wrong is that they forgot to Expect the unexpected

[HMS Lydia]

To me admitting the error is taking responsibility. Does it really need to go further than that?

[fast.git]

To me admitting the error is taking responsibility.

I'm more than willing to agree to disagree.

[The Royal Hajj]

Kieth, in another thread you indicated that you had received your retail order. Of course you can't fill any orders with it yet. But the point is, if you have your retail order you can be others do as well, and it is certain distributors have theirs. No retailer or distributor should have received anything until all KS backers received ther stuff. Yes, I consider that an error. What do I expect them to do about it. Nothing! I'm okay with the fact that Ares realizes that this didn't go the way planned. I don't think there was an intentional thought to withhold anything from backers, or purposely delay it getting out. This was just a little poor planning and coordination. Ares is the warehouse/distributors customer as such there should have been some control over order of shipping.

The product shipped to distributors and retailers for the most part will sit on shelves until the street date. The warehouseman that picked that order could have picked an order to KS backer, who would have made use of it over the holiday season. Look I'm not mad and I'm certainly going to continue to support Ares and the game. It was an mistake. I appeciate the KS update and that satisfies me. Will it satisfy everyone, probably not.

I'm not so sure me getting my retail supplies indicates anything in regards to other stores (outside the German incident we know about). I deal directly with Ares for my orders and products. Most if not almost all other store would be going through distributors. I know for a fact that my FLGS has not gotten their retail order (or KS order for that matter) as I talked to the owner last night when he was helping swap out a broken dishwasher at one of my rental properties. lol

Warehouses and distributors charge money per square foot to store products. I don't see any company being able to keep the warehouse from shipping out large volume consuming stacks of boxes just because the KS got pushed back. They are going to clear that warehouse space as fast as possible and leave the waiting for Jan 13th to someone else. I think that is what happened with Germany. The warehouse shipped all the retail orders to them with a do not release date, as soon as they could. I'm sure this was to clear space as well as help ensure the EU had the products in time to meet the street release date. That German distributor got it, processed it and sent it out early for whatever reason. Things like this is what makes it so hard for a small company to do simultaneous world wide releases something often called for on the Wings side of the house).

Ares is in a bad spot as the warehouse they use is also their US distributor. So if they have to fire the warehouse, they have to come up with a whole new distribution method for all of their games.

On a personal note, I don't think any KS should use the reward of getting the product early. It's not really a tangible reward, ultimately does not really matter to 99% of potential backers and can only hurt you as a business.

[The Royal Hajj]

I didn't consider an "apology" to be "taking responsibility."

So, if you make a mistake, take actions to ensure to the best of your ability that it does not happen again, that's not you take responsibility for the mistake? Not trying to flame here at all, just trying to understand more where you are coming from.

[HMS Lydia]

I certainly am not advocating they fire their US distributor. Hope that isn't what came through in my previous post.

[Old Ironsides]

On a personal note, I don't think any KS should use the reward of getting the product early. It's not really a tangible reward, ultimately does not really matter to 99% of potential backers and can only hurt you as a business.

As I am not a retailer, so I am not aware if you had to agree to anything when you signed up as a KS Admiral (Available to retailers only) that you would not sell when you received your product before a certain date as distributores are suppose to be bound to. My assumption is that getting your product early (Before competitiors) would be a huge factor in supporting a popular project like this. I could be wrong. At this point some of the biggest supporters at the Admiral level may not even have their rewards to sell when their competitors will who did not tie up funds for 8+ months.

As a player getting the product early was indeed a very tangible reward to me. At this point I have missed all the fall CONs that could have garnered more local interest. Granted the KS exlcusive rewards are still something that others are not suppose to be able to get, but we will see if that holds true.

I do not mean to be a downer, but this whole KS experience was very eye opening and as a result I doubt I will ever support a KS again. In all honesty my interests have severely wained and at this point I am on the fence as to if I even open my rewards or just hit ebay to recover my investment especially with X-mas bills on the horizon.

For now it is sitting in a corner hoping my mood changes as I am pursuing other interests at the moment.

[The Royal Hajj]

Not at all Bob, my responses are inclusive of other posts else where on the internet as well. Maybe I should not do that

[Cool Breeze]

This was their first KS and I think they've done a pretty good job with it. I hope they were able to apply some of the lessons learned to their Galaxy Defenders KS, even thought it started just shortly after.

Agreed. And no complaints on GD so far, very smooth IMHO, and the options there were equally or more ridiculous. I backed it with a ton of options, as my family loves cooperative boardgames and Sci-Fi as much as historical minis. Time will tell on the shipping side of things.

[The Royal Hajj]

As I am not a retailer, so I am not aware if you had to agree to anything when you signed up as a KS Admiral (Available to retailers only) that you would not sell when you received your product before a certain date as distributores are suppose to be bound to. My assumption is that getting your product early (Before competitiors) would be a huge factor in supporting a popular project like this. I could be wrong. At this point some of the biggest supporters at the Admiral level may not even have their rewards to sell when their competitors will who did not tie up funds for 8+ months.

As a player getting the product early was indeed a very tangible reward to me. At this point I have missed all the fall CONs that could have garnered more local interest. Granted the KS exlcusive rewards are still something that others are not suppose to be able to get, but we will see if that holds true.

I do not mean to be a downer, but this whole KS experience was very eye opening and as a result I doubt I will ever support a KS again. In all honesty my interests have severely wained and at this point I am on the fence as to if I even open my rewards or just hit ebay to recover my investment especially with X-mas bills on the horizon.

For now it is sitting in a corner hoping my mood changes as I am pursuing other interests at the moment.

KS Admiral are allowed to sell items as soon as they receive them... that was the benefit to backing it on a retail level. Perhaps really large retailers pledged multiple Admiral levels that early on, but I don't see it being many. To tie up that kind of cash flow for a product that has a moving release date at best, has unknown potential sales numbers and at not much off of normal whole sale, would be a hard pill for any store to swallow. I think most stores are like my FLGS and order one or two Admiral packages so that they could get some games in and sold to gauge and build interest in the game before having to place a large order though distribution (the more you order there, the bigger the discount you get typically). That's why I think it's not as big a deal to the retail backers.

From your reply, the fact that you are not getting the game well in advance of the retail market is not the issue, it's that you did not get it in time for the fall Cons and holiday gaming period? If I'm understanding that correctly, the "before retail release" reward still does not really offer you anything ( just went back and looked, my reply before should have said earlier than retail.). I know some people are the types that enjoy having things before anyone else and that for them it is a just reward. But from the point of the KS company, their is still no advantage to offering.

[Nightmoss]

On a personal note, I don't think any KS should use the reward of getting the product early. It's not really a tangible reward, ultimately does not really matter to 99% of potential backers and can only hurt you as a business.

This in a nutshell is one of the major problems I see with ANY Kickstarter project.

I've backed several KS projects at this point and invariably production delays and delivery of the finished items to backers is the biggest complaint you'll hear from supporters. As I have mentioned before Catalyst Game Labs was selling "The Duke" at Origins before all backers had received their rewards. In fact, many of us are still waiting for their promised 'exclusives' many months (years) after the KS project was funded. You can imagine how many backers felt and still feel about this slap in the face.

I think many retailers, both online and brick and mortar stores, dislike KS intensely because they see it cutting into their eventual sales and profits. Others understand that it's marketing tool to judge production potential or move production schedules forward.

When I can accept the fact that Kickstarter projects are meant to fund or market and item/idea, rather than it being an opportunity for me to buy something before everyone else I feel less angry or 'cheated' with eventual delays, or missteps that occur along the way.

Tom Vasel from The Dice Tower did an interesting show last year where he interviewed both suppliers and developers on their feelings towards Kickstarter. I can't find it otherwise I'd link it here, but you get a total range of opinions, positive and negative on any form of crowd funding, but specifically KS.

[fast.git]

Not trying to flame here at all, just trying to understand more where you are coming from.

And I appreciate that. Neither is it mine. In the year-plus I have interacted with you, nothing you have said or done would make me believe that was your intent... but I appreciate the explanation nonetheless.

So, if you make a mistake, take actions to ensure to the best of your ability that it does not happen again, that's not you take responsibility for the mistake?

As far as this goes... I believe that apologizing for something you did or caused is just that, an apology. It's what happens next that, for me, determines whether or not someone "took responsibility." It remains to be seen if Ares does something beyond offering an apology. No, I am not advocating for anyone to lose their job... proverbial heads should not roll. But their track record in shipping KS materials currently resides at 0-1. We'll see what happens with GD. If they've restructured things so that they're able to fulfill their promises to their customers, then that will signal that they've "taken responsibility." Not that it matters beyond the personal level, but that would satisfy me.

None of that, however, addresses the failure to deliver on promises made for this product. I understand that KS programs are notoriously late. If that is the case, then don't promise to deliver on time. I feel that Ares should do something for backers who were promised product before it was available in retail locations (either brick n' mortar, or internet). If it turns out that backers are still waiting for their pledge rewards when the product becomes available on the 13th (or 17th, or whenever), then I think Ares should do something.

I have no idea what this "something" should be, but it should be something. Ares did, after all, include that as one of the benefits of backing their KS.

Does that answer your question, Keith? If not, I'll be happy to move this to PM and try again.

Thanks.


Chris

[The Royal Hajj]

And I appreciate that. Neither is it mine. In the year-plus I have interacted with you, nothing you have said or done would make me believe that was your intent... but I appreciate the explanation nonetheless.

As far as this goes... I believe that apologizing for something you did or caused is just that, an apology. It's what happens next that, for me, determines whether or not someone "took responsibility." It remains to be seen if Ares does something beyond offering an apology. No, I am not advocating for anyone to lose their job... proverbial heads should not roll. But their track record in shipping KS materials currently resides at 0-1. We'll see what happens with GD. If they've restructured things so that they're able to fulfill their promises to their customers, then that will signal that they've "taken responsibility." Not that it matters beyond the personal level, but that would satisfy me.

So unless you back another one of their KS projects, to you, they would never have a chance to take responsibility.

I understand that KS programs are notoriously late. If that is the case, then don't promise to deliver on time. I feel that Ares should do something for backers who were promised product before it was available in retail locations (either brick n' mortar, or internet). If it turns out that backers are still waiting for their pledge rewards when the product becomes available on the 13th (or 17th, or whenever), then I think Ares should do something.

I agree with you 100%. They listed it as a reward and should make it right if they can't deliver on it. Perhaps an additional scenario or two for download might work? I can't see them being able to offer a product type of compensation that would have to be shipped out. Something of that nature would simply not be cost effective.

[Cool Breeze]

I've backed dozens of KS projects, most of them games. I've had 1 ship early, 2 ship on time or within a couple of weeks of the original goal. All the rest have missed it by at least a month. And as far as who gets theirs first in a KS, it annoyingly comes down to warehouse needs as others have stated. I'd prefer a biggest $ backer to smallest, but that's because it makes more sense to me as smart business, not because I spend the most (rarely more than entry-mid level).

But specifically to SoG KS being a fiasco?

I think it's more an issue of timing (shipping around the holidays) than how it was done. Zombicide season 2 people were ebaying their exclusives 6 weeks before I got mine, and it had nothing to do with timing, just sheer volume. If your definition of fiasco refers only to timing, I'd say yes, it's been a fiasco.

But IMO, Ares did their best, and crappy timing is preferable to waiting until middle of January to avoid the, "How come Mr. Jones got his before Christmas and I got mine after new years?" queries. Hell, at least some folks got theirs for the holiday. Instead of being jealous of others, why don't we try and be happy for them. It's okay to be disappointed about ours, but others getting theirs first shouldn't make it worse. Can you imagine the PR nightmare if a company chose to hold everybody's until after the holiday to avoid the jealousy factor of the timing issue, and it ever got out? There'd be an angry mob with pitchforks!

I'm sure this experience has provided several good lessons for all of us, including Ares, and we, the consumers who back things on KS.

Free advice from a KS junky...

First of all, think of KS as an investment tool, not a preorder tool. When you back a project, you're investing in an idea to see it through to actualization. Rewards are the actualization of the idea, often actual tangible products which may not exist if you and others didn't take a risk on the idea.

Now, specific to KS games...

Over the last year, I've learned to only back KS games for two reasons:

1.) To actually help fund a Project I think is good, but won't see the light of day if not funded (usually by really small companies).
2.) The project offers KS Backer Exclusives which outweigh both:

a.) the long wait for delivery after my funds are gone
b.) a knowledge the core line will be cheaper through retail vendor discounts.

If you're backing a game project to, "get it first," I recommend you rethink your investment strategy. The rush of having something a few days before others only lasts those few days, then you're off to something else to get that special feeling, which is going to fill your home with barely played games and could lead to bankruptcy.

[fast.git]

So unless you back another one of their KS projects, to you, they would never have a chance to take responsibility.

Well... this is where it gets a little weird. Sure, I'm bummed that I don't have the product yet. But I don't think Ares did anything to me. Making it right for the next time, whether or not I was involved, would still amount to them taking responsibility.

I agree with you 100%. They listed it as a reward and should make it right if they can't deliver on it. Perhaps an additional scenario or two for download might work? I can't see them being able to offer a product type of compensation that would have to be shipped out. Something of that nature would simply not be cost effective.

Agreed. That's why I'm at a loss. It's unrealistic to believe that Ares can "fix" this in a monetary sense... at least, not without damaging their ability to continue doing business. But the something I was referring to earlier could definitely be some kind of downloadable product. I think that would help.

[Gaz67]

This was my first KS, and I'm taking the view that without my backing the project it would never exist!

[Old Ironsides]

I guess what I am put off by is that Ares knew things were behind schedule so everything should have been pushed back including the street date to maybe FEB-MAR to ensure the KS backers had their product "weeks" in advance as promised. I understand the delays, but I do not understand why they did not push the entire timeline back to include the retail date.

If the response is that it cost too much to warehouse it they had that problem to begin with when they made the promise with the original plan of a JULY/AUG delivery date if they planned to produce it all at once. If true this tells me they never intended to give us the rewards significantly in advance of the retailers.

As for my friend, yes he did pledge quite a bit at the Admiral level. In hind sight probably not a good move, but he has had great luck selling other Ares products and believed in SOG. This being our first kickstarter we took Ares at their word that KS backers would have product up to 8 weeks in advance of retailers. Now by not delivering and making the street date so close they have taken a major incentive away from him that caused him commit to the KS at such a high level in the first place.

You are correct to the average gamer who bought in for personal use the street date really makes no big difference other than bragging rights to have the game first. For the KS retailers though I think it is a significant issue.

This was my first KS as well as his and we will both be much wiser in the future.

[The Royal Hajj]

I guess what I am put off by is that Ares knew things were behind schedule so everything should have been pushed back including the street date to maybe FEB-MAR to ensure the KS backers had their product "weeks" in advance as promised. I understand the delays, but I do not understand why they did not push the entire timeline back to include the retail date.

If the response is that it cost too much to warehouse it they had that problem to begin with when they made the promise with the original plan of a JULY/AUG delivery date if they planned to produce it all at once. If true this tells me they never intended to give us the rewards significantly in advance of the retailers.

I'm sure part of this is a compounding issue. Ares truly expected the game to be on the street by Sept or Oct and had budgeted for that. Delay the game by 4.5 month and they are now very much out of their planned budget (keep in minded they had to pay large portions of the costs up front to the manufactures). So I can see them trying to get the retail stock in the pipeline as soon as possible to that everyone had it ready to go on the street date. Is that 100% except able, no. But if it came down to them having to chose that over not starting production on another product/project, or even not being able to pay some bills... I now which one I'd tell them to pick.

I just find it hard to get to upset about things which I have no insight into the real reasons why of it. I think one of the largest issues is that a very large portion of the backers for this project had never backed a KS before and did not know what to expect. Same thing for Ares as the creator.

As for my friend, yes he did pledge quite a bit at the Admiral level. In hind sight probably not a good move, but he has had great luck selling other Ares products and believed in SOG. This being our first kickstarter we took Ares at their word that KS backers would have product up to 8 weeks in advance of retailers. Now by not delivering and making the street date so close they have taken a major incentive away from him that caused him commit to the KS at such a high level in the first place.

Just wondering where you got the 8 weeks number? I can't seem to find it on the KS page.

You are correct to the average gamer who bought in for personal use the street date really makes no big difference other than bragging rights to have the game first. For the KS retailers though I think it is a significant issue.

It can be for retailers, just depends on how/why the backed it.

[Cool Breeze]

As for my friend, yes he did pledge quite a bit at the Admiral level. In hind sight probably not a good move, but he has had great luck selling other Ares products and believed in SOG. This being our first kickstarter we took Ares at their word that KS backers would have product up to 8 weeks in advance of retailers. Now by not delivering and making the street date so close they have taken a major incentive away from him that caused him commit to the KS at such a high level in the first place.

You are correct to the average gamer who bought in for personal use the street date really makes no big difference other than bragging rights to have the game first. For the KS retailers though I think it is a significant issue.

This was my first KS as well as his and we will both be much wiser in the future.

Aaron, FWIW this gives better insight, and from this viewpoint, I'd not be happy either. I was just sharing my thoughts, as you requested, on why I didn't consider it a fiasco to the same extent.

However, I did fail to address this issue from your OP...

Sending our personal information out once via emial(I received 213 emails for other backers) was bad enough in this age of identity theft. Now doing it a second time is unforgiveable. If you are one whose personal information was sent to the second person you can only hope they deleted it as I did. Shameful!

As a Law Enforcement Officer, I'm very cognizant of the potential for abuse this entails, and am very upset. While I knew what I was getting into when I became a lawman, I've tried to keep my address out of public purview because my wife and daughters did not sign up to be targets of opportunity for leverage.

A fellow Marshal of mine took early retirement after someone was murdered on his front yard. Fortunately, it was just dumb luck, not a message, but yeah, my address being sent to random folks is definitely a fiasco. And I am very grateful to you for deleting it.
Hopefully, the other fellow did as well.

[GreenLaborMike]

FWIW, I don't see this as a "fiasco". It's been a bit more rocky than many other KS projects I've backed, but nothing too far out of the ordinary. But I am very much of the same mind as Cool Breeze, and his criteria are very similar to mine as to which projects I choose to back. Receiving a game before it hits retail is generally not of much concern to me, especially if the game I backed includes KS exclusives.

That last fact is one big reason why I haven't worried about SoG. Retailers aren't getting the KS Exclusive Ships, or the Captain/Crew ability decks (afaik), for example, so there is no hurry in that respect.

I do appreciate the concerns about the misdirected e-mail messages with personal information, and I also respect the concerns of retailers who backed at the Admiral level. From that perspective, it's fair to consider this a big poop in the pants. But it terms of those of us just backing for our own use, it's roughly par for the course, IMHO.

[Cool Breeze]

Just read a comment from Ares on KS, and fortunately this last batch of tracking emails sent to one person included only tracking #s, no address per se. (Just the ability to get home town from tracking it to final destination city).

So, FWIW, we missed that one.

Still, not a great sign to endear faith for future tracking communiques.

[Coog]

I never had much concern whether or not a product hits store shelves before I got my KS reward, that is if it isn't too long a time. It's all the promos and extra free items that come with the KS that attract me.

I do find it interesting though that it has not become apparent and to be expected to game producers with small staffs and KS backers, based on what has occurred during past and present large KS projects, that once the product makes it to the warehouse it is almost always (if not always) a major time consuming undertaking with all sorts of problems getting the product to KS backers and retailers.

[Old Ironsides]

Just wondering where you got the 8 weeks number? I can't seem to find it on the KS page.

I was coming up with up to 8 weeks based on a late July/AUG delivery date and a SEPT/OCT retail date that has been previously discussed at length early on. I looked and could not find the exact time either on the KS page, not sure if content has been editied or it was in one of the many updates, but I specifically recall that it would be "weeks" instead of days.

Yes, I fully understand that the delays are costing Ares money as well and obviously they need to pay the bills. If this is the hand they are forced based on the course of events so be it. We do not know all the inner working s and can only speculate.

I would certainly hope they are considering some sort of compensation for the admiral backers who IMO are beig hurt the most by the time shift...not sure what they should be, but maybe some additional product or something???? IMO some sort of tangible offer should be made as compensation for them not delivering to the KS retailers on time and rushing the street date. Just my opinion though.

[fredmiracle]

The distribution has appeared amateurish from here. But the product seems good, and that's a lot more important I think...

[Shoot@Me]

This was my first Kickstarter to back. I expected most of these issues. Absolutely don't think it was a fiasco and I will continue to wait patiently. I don't feel that they promised me anything except a high quality product, so I'm not perturbed in the slightest.

Edit: By the way, the only reference to "8 weeks" I can find is in Update 47, where they discuss release date expectations and said their total delay was about 8 weeks at that point. I don't recall Ares ever specifying how far in advance backers would have their rewards.

[csadn]

OK, folks -- time to show all of my 41 years on this planet....

I have been gaming since I was 7 -- and I say that only because that's as far back as I can remember.

In all the days from this day to that, I have noticed three absolute lead-pipe-cinch certainties as regards Gaming Companies:

1) No Gaming Company has ever released a product which did not later require massive amounts of errata without breaking rule #2 and/or #3.

2) No Gaming Company has ever released a product on-time or ahead-of-schedule without breaking rule #1 and/or #3.

3) No Gaming Company has ever released a product within announced budget constraints without breaking rule #1 and/or #2.

This is just another example of that.

[Andy Blozinski]

The fact that it didn't deliver on time doesn't really bother me. I just didn't find this surprising, for whatever reasons. I was inconvenienced by not having MY game to run at MillenniumCon and that was annoying. Fortunately I got the demo kit and thus got the basic goal accomplished. It would have been nicer not to have to tell everybody this isn't what the stuff would really look like. I missed the boat to run it at OwlCon because I was waiting to actually have my game in hand before making my game entry and......Someone else didn't wait. Then the organizers got an excess of naval games in general and asked me not to run yet another naval game. Sooo, I'm running Godzilla Kaiju World Wars and Formula D instead. Mag-Con is a smaller con about 3 months away, so I'll be set for that. As you might surmise, I got this game primarily to run at conventions. That's why I have LOTS of add-ons and thus I'm not surprised I'll be damn near last to get my stuff with a complicated order.

On the general subject of getting it first as a reward or not. Like a painting, that gets interpretive to the observer. Here's what I observed:
They asked for $30K, we pledged $276K. So....most of us didn't really make a difference on bringing it to market.
Retail prices are cheaper than Kickstarter prices. If that was your thrill, it's gone.
If retailers sell it before or at the same time as backers get it, that thrill is gone.
Reasonably, I would say this adds up to a decrease in the thrill overall for some folks.

I have fun chatting with you fellows and thus have got something out of this whole experience, but if someone is pissy about not getting their stuff early, I could easily understand their point of view.

[Berthier]

There's an old saying in retail about price, quality and speed of delivery- you can only get two without sacrificing the third

[Ayeblackbart]

I certainly am not advocating they fire their US distributor. Hope that isn't what came through in my previous post.

I'm glad you clarified your stance because when I read this at work earlier today that's what I thought you meant. I really hate it when people start shouting for somebody's job. Having been layed off (thru no fault of my own) not knowing where I was going to get the money to feed my kids that is never my first response
since we don't know all the issues behind someone's job performance.

[Toothless9]

Wow, took my kids skiing yesterday and this thread pops up. I see in the original post that there was concern about a second delivery list with many names sent. I also see that person also counted the number of names on the 1st occurance. Well, I was the person that got the second list and I already deleted the list. I had already gotten my stuff, the mats being last, earlier that day so I knew it was a mistake. I didn't bother to look but I knew it was long judging by the sidebar length of the email. I cannot help anyone about who's on the list, it's DELETED!

[Cool Breeze]

Wow, took my kids skiing yesterday and this thread pops up. I see in the original post that there was concern about a second delivery list with many names sent. I also see that person also counted the number of names on the 1st occurance. Well, I was the person that got the second list and I already deleted the list. I had already gotten my stuff, the mats being last, earlier that day so I knew it was a mistake. I didn't bother to look but I knew it was long judging by the sidebar length of the email. I cannot help anyone about who's on the list, it's DELETED!

One of the things I love about this site? The integrity of its community!

@ Aaron & Dominic - Thank you for doing the right thing!

[7eat51]

One of the things I love about this site? The integrity of its community!

@ Aaron & Dominic - Thank you for doing the right thing!

Hear, hear.

[GreenLaborMike]

One of the things I love about this site? The integrity of its community!

@ Aaron & Dominic - Thank you for doing the right thing!

Agreed!

[csadn]

There's an old saying in retail about price, quality and speed of delivery- you can only get two without sacrificing the third

Yes -- but most gaming companies fail to deliver on *all three*; they miss delivery deadlines, charge entirely too much, and the game is still a badly-edited mess.

Sad to say, but most Gaming Companies have yet to learn what the computer world learned with the infamous "Foonly" and "Mars" fiascos: "If you want to play in the Real World, you have to learn Real World Moves."

http://catb.org/jargon/html/F/Foonly.html
http://catb.org/jargon/html/M/Mars.html

[Cpt Kangaroo]

Free advice from a KS junky...

First of all, think of KS as an investment tool, not a preorder tool. When you back a project, you're investing in an idea to see it through to actualization. Rewards are the actualization of the idea, often actual tangible products which may not exist if you and others didn't take a risk on the idea.

Now, specific to KS games...

Over the last year, I've learned to only back KS games for two reasons:

1.) To actually help fund a Project I think is good, but won't see the light of day if not funded (usually by really small companies).
2.) The project offers KS Backer Exclusives which outweigh both:

a.) the long wait for delivery after my funds are gone
b.) a knowledge the core line will be cheaper through retail vendor discounts.

Well spoken Curtis!

I have said this in previous threads:

My reasons for backing the project was to get the game in existence. Without the KS we could have waited another couple of years before the project took shape. It was very pleasing to be part of creating something of this quality.

My thought was that the timeline was optimistic by far, and my own estimate was we would be ahead if we saw it on the shelves within a year.

I have been waiting over 40 years for a company to come out with a pre painted line of ships in the age of sail, ever since my first experience with WS&IM.

While I am sorry for the issues that occurred, I think that Ares did what they could with the information available and 'rolled with the punches.'

It would have been great if things would have worked out so that the product would have been available for Christmas marketing, but it wasn't to be, so on to the new year!

Always the optimist, we are ahead of the curve by having a fully developed game available at the beginning of 2014.

To reiterate a well used quote by Abraham Lincoln, A person is only as happy as they make up their mind to be...

I am ecstatic my 40+ years waiting is over.

[Scrivner]

To answer the question of what Ares should do to take responsibility - they should offer a refund to anyone who feels they did not receive the game in a timely manner.

If they made a promise to deliver several weeks before street date and they didn't fulfill that promise then they should not expect people to still have to pay for that unfulfilled promise.

Personally, I pledged at Lieutenant level and I'm not that concerned about how late it is as long as it's good quality. So I would not ask for a refund but I think that offering it would be the appropriate thing to do.

[Gunner]

Welcome Bart. Glad that you finally jumped in.

Speaking for myself, since it looks like all orders will be delivered within two weeks, I'll just be happy to receive them.
I haven't seen any movement from the horse, so I don't see much reason to kick it any more.

[Пилот]

Don't be so harsh to Ares. As I see, they did make some terrible mistakes, but I strongly believe next time they'll be better. I guess they are still learning.

[Capt P]

I did the Lt level and have received all my items well before Christmas. Sorry to hear that some have had a problem with this and hope things will clear up from ARES.