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Thread: Counter limit

  1. #1
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    Default Counter limit

    Forgive me if this has already been asked but.

    Is the number of counters with the starter set a finite deal ?
    With pledge set I got an extra set of counters so can I use both sets for a two ship game or do we use one set of counters per 4 ships?
    I was intending to punch out all counters and put in the bags but now not sure if it will upset play balance or doesn't it matter?

  2. #2
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    You can do it either way. Adding extra counters will not change the odds of drawing counter X, but it will change that fact that there are two X counters that can be drawn and applied twice in the game. ON the other hand, only using one set of counters changes the odds of drawing counter X every time any counter is drawn. Does that make sense?

    I'll be mixing a couple of counter sets for my games.

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    I play WoG with four A-decks, two B-decks, and two C-decks, regardless of the number of planes. Knowing certain cards are always a possibility adds a nice bit of tension, and captures a broader range of possibilities each hit. I will do the same with SoG.

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    I have another question about counters:

    Each ship mat comes with a set of counters which has one repair. Is this meant to be the limit on the number of repair actions a ship can perform? Otherwise, is it OK to say, "hey can I borrow 3 more repair counters" and do 4 repairs in a turn?

    Second: what happens if you run out of damage counters during a game? This hasn't happened yet but I didn't read rules for putting damage counters BACK into a bag.

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    I play even dirtier -- I have the possible results plugged into a RNG; there's no telling how many times in a game a result may appear.... >:)

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    I play even dirtier -- I have the possible results plugged into a RNG; there's no telling how many times in a game a result may appear.... >:)
    Interesting option Chris as this changes the possible results dramatically. It is now possible under a RNG to get the same result say three times in a row, but the chit system may only have one of a particular chit in the whole bag so that could not happen. Since this changes both the probability of a particular chit being pulled (the bag doesn't get any emptier when you use a RNG, depending on how you set it up) and it affects the probability of the frequency of a particular result do you think this will alter the feel of the game much? It would be an interesting exercise to run a parallel game with both the rules as written and a RNG through a processor a couple of hundred times to see if the impact on the game was dramatic or not.

    I'm not sure how much analysis of chit distribution went into the game design, how many historical situations were analyzed for their outcomes etc, but I'm sure once the game becomes widely available the discussions about "realistic" outcomes of battles will start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlmartin621 View Post
    I have another question about counters:

    Each ship mat comes with a set of counters which has one repair. Is this meant to be the limit on the number of repair actions a ship can perform? Otherwise, is it OK to say, "hey can I borrow 3 more repair counters" and do 4 repairs in a turn?

    Second: what happens if you run out of damage counters during a game? This hasn't happened yet but I didn't read rules for putting damage counters BACK into a bag.
    We'll have to ask about the repairs per turn I think.

    As to running out, simply remove the counters from all boxes that are completely filled.

  8. #8

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    Once a box is filled out, you only need one counter to mark it. You can put the others back in the bag. I ran (10) ships with the demo kit and we didn't have problems running out of counters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    do you think this will alter the feel of the game much?
    I run WoG games with multiple damage decks. I like the feel of the game knowing that boom cards, for example, are always a possibility - given four of them in the A-deck pile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Blozinski View Post
    Once a box is filled out, you only need one counter to mark it. You can put the others back in the bag. I ran (10) ships with the demo kit and we didn't have problems running out of counters.
    It might be worthwhile to have a generic fill counter, this way all of the damage counters are returned; leaving one behind would affect odds.

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    I like that idea Eric, with not having the game yet!, but it sounds a) quick, b) easy, c) sensible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlmartin621 View Post
    I have another question about counters:

    Each ship mat comes with a set of counters which has one repair. Is this meant to be the limit on the number of repair actions a ship can perform? Otherwise, is it OK to say, "hey can I borrow 3 more repair counters" and do 4 repairs in a turn?

    Second: what happens if you run out of damage counters during a game? This hasn't happened yet but I didn't read rules for putting damage counters BACK into a bag.
    I donnot have a rulebook at hand, but I do remember the number of repairs being limited to one each (hull and mast) per ship per game.

    In this case, yo donnot need an addutional counter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbes View Post
    I do remember the number of repairs being limited to one each (hull and mast) per ship per game
    Yes but you could not start repairs on both hull and rudder in the same turn. With one counter you'd have to do one, then the other over four turns.

  13. #13

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    Counters are returned to the pool when a ship strikes.

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    Here are the rules on repairing damage:

    Repair damage: The player leaves the action counter, face up, in the planned action box, until the Action phase of the next turn. During the Action phase of the next turn, the action is resolved.

    At this point the player can decide to:
    — repair normal damage
    — repair a leak
    — repair a damaged rudder
    — repair a broken mast.

    Repairing Normal Damage
    The player immediately moves all the counters in one damage box of the ship log to the “0 damage” box of the ship mat. If the damage box is not the last one, all the groups of counters shift to the left, so there are no gaps in the ship log. The player cannot remove water or fire damage counters using this action.
    Note: Any special damage caused by the removed damage counters continues to have ect, as before.

    Repairing a Leak
    If the ship has a leak, the player may decide to repair it: he moves the action counter to the Special Damage box. The action is completed at the end of this turn:
    the action counter and one leak marker are removed from the Special Damage box– the leak is repaired, and the action becomes available again.

    Repairing a Damaged Rudder
    If the ship has a damaged rudder, the player may decide to repair it: he moves the action counter to the Special Damage box. The action is completed at the end of this turn: the action counter and one rudder damage marker are removed from the Special Damage box– the rudder is repaired, and the action becomes available again.

    Repairing a Broken Mast
    If the ship has a broken mast, the player may decide to repair it: he moves the action counter to the Special Damage box. The action is completed at the end of this turn: the action counter and one broken mast damage marker are removed from the Special Damage box– the mast is repaired, and the action becomes available again.

    LIMITATION TO REPAIRS
    During the game, a ship may use the Repair damage action to repair as many leaks and rudder damages as desired. However, normal damage and broken masts may only be repaired once per game. The removed damage counters or the broken mast marker must be left in the “0 damage” box as a reminder the action has been already used once for the stated purpose.

    On most of those it states that the repair action become available again. That implies to me that only one per ship should be used.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    It might be worthwhile to have a generic fill counter, this way all of the damage counters are returned; leaving one behind would affect odds.
    If you're worried about a single counter throwing off your odds, then you just can't use counters at all.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Blozinski View Post
    If you're worried about a single counter throwing off your odds, then you just can't use counters at all.
    Not worried at all. It is simply a mathematical thing. If you're going to replace counters, you might as well replace as many as you can, for both odds and for number of counters. If you have several ships, all with multiple boxes checked off, deciding which ones to replace and which ones to leave on the mats/logs could have an impact.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    Interesting option Chris as this changes the possible results dramatically. It is now possible under a RNG to get the same result say three times in a row, but the chit system may only have one of a particular chit in the whole bag so that could not happen. Since this changes both the probability of a particular chit being pulled (the bag doesn't get any emptier when you use a RNG, depending on how you set it up) and it affects the probability of the frequency of a particular result do you think this will alter the feel of the game much? It would be an interesting exercise to run a parallel game with both the rules as written and a RNG through a processor a couple of hundred times to see if the impact on the game was dramatic or not.
    Well, I do have one special rule: "No Impossible Outcomes". That is: If a particular card/chit only appears once in the deck/pile, then it can only appear once in the generated result. (This is why I have a problem with mixing multiple decks/piles -- even if the *percentages* don't change, it's still possible to draw more than one of the cards/chits which by rights should only appear once.) So when generating a draw, I include a few extra at the end, then work down from the top; if a "one only" result appears more than once, I skip it and move to the next one. Unfortunately, at the moment the software is insufficiently adept to handle "this result shouldn't happen more than [n]".

    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    I'm not sure how much analysis of chit distribution went into the game design, how many historical situations were analyzed for their outcomes etc, but I'm sure once the game becomes widely available the discussions about "realistic" outcomes of battles will start.
    Oh, gods -- if _WoG_ was any indication, we can expect the "impossible results" to appear shortly, and the unending arguments to follow shortly thereafter.... :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Well, I do have one special rule: "No Impossible Outcomes". That is: If a particular card/chit only appears once in the deck/pile, then it can only appear once in the generated result. (This is why I have a problem with mixing multiple decks/piles -- even if the *percentages* don't change, it's still possible to draw more than one of the cards/chits which by rights should only appear once.)
    Is it by rights only to appear once, or is it relative to other possible draws? In WoG, for example, there is one 5-point damage card with a pilot wounded symbol in a given A-deck. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that can only happen once to a given plane - by rights. It is unclear to me why this is the case, why a given plane cannot be hit twice in that fashion. The fact that there is only one of those cards in the deck might be more of a ratio issue than an absolute issue, that relative to other outcomes, such a card has a 1 in 40 (or whatever the number of cards in an A-deck) chance of being drawn, as opposed to a plane/pilot cannot be hit twice in that fashion.

    In some thread on the 'Drome, recently, someone posted about assigning a damage deck to each plane (was that you, Chris?). That could make for an interesting game.

    I'm sure, now that the games are being delivered, that many unending discussions will ensue. Let the good times roll.

  19. #19
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    I think the limitations for damage counters is a cost/production issue and not so much a game mechanic. Andrea and Ares have already stated that you can and should mix more damage counter sets together for larger games. That leads me to believe the limitation placed in a single set of damage counters is for ratio purposes.

  20. #20

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    In my experience one set of damage counters is perfectly adequate for a battle with four ships of the line, possibly six.

    On the question of the whys and wherefores of the damage card / chit system - its a game (and in many ways gamey) mechanic that doesn't bear much resemblance to the "reality" of how damage is caused to ships or aircraft (at the very least the probability of a hit causing damage is affected by the damage caused by the damage inflicted against a different target by a different shooter. Really??) but which works OK from a play perspective as long as you don't think about it too much or don't try to read into it any fictitious qualities that don't exist.

    Which is how I prefer it when I'm playing WGF or SGN.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Is it by rights only to appear once, or is it relative to other possible draws? In WoG, for example, there is one 5-point damage card with a pilot wounded symbol in a given A-deck. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that can only happen once to a given plane - by rights. It is unclear to me why this is the case, why a given plane cannot be hit twice in that fashion. The fact that there is only one of those cards in the deck might be more of a ratio issue than an absolute issue, that relative to other outcomes, such a card has a 1 in 40 (or whatever the number of cards in an A-deck) chance of being drawn, as opposed to a plane/pilot cannot be hit twice in that fashion.
    Quite correct -- the only reason I only allow it once per draw is because there's only one instance of it in the deck. This does *NOT* preclude it appearing twice in consecutive draws, however (hint, hint... >:) ).

    In A Perfect World: There would have been two decks -- one for damage, with some cards marked for "special damage"; and one for all the possible special-damage results. This way, one can get the "historical" (if improbable) instance of the fighter which takes hardly any damage itself, but the bullets which do hit it end up blowing the pilot's head off, or lunch the propeller, or vent the coolant system, or whatever results in the "one-volley-one-kill" some people are so bloody fond of. :)

    The problem I, personally, have with the card-deck/chit system is the same as Las Vegas's problem with it: Some card-counter comes down the pike, and ruins the game for everyone else (esp. the House >:) ). Thus, any means by which the card-counters can be neutralized -- or better yet eliminated altogether -- is a method of which I approve. The suggestion (not mine, but I'd thought similarly before) of assigning damage decks to each unit from which they would have to draw for damage is interesting, and bears following up (it would also provide Ares an excuse to provide additional damage decks... ;) ).

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