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Thread: Photo Etched Brass Ratlines

  1. #301
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    "Fifteen hundred years ago, everybody 'knew' the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody 'knew' the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you 'knew' that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you’ll 'know' tomorrow..."
    --Agent K of the Men in Black

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    "Fifteen hundred years ago, everybody 'knew' the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody 'knew' the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you 'knew' that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you’ll 'know' tomorrow..."
    --Agent K of the Men in Black
    Who side are you on!!!!
    Be safe
    Rory

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    I seem to recall we had a discussion about this maybe a year ago. I think the final outcome was they may have been originally painted green but turned black over time, or, they may have been black but turned green over time as that is what paints can do in weather, UV damage etc etc. So, whatever you paint you could be right but you could be wrong!

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    The side that has to question EVERYTHING, amigo. :)

    "We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and 'X' never, ever, marks the spot."
    A little later:
    "Ten. X marks the spot."
    --Indiana Jones

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    The side that has to question EVERYTHING, amigo. :)

    "We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and 'X' never, ever, marks the spot."
    A little later:
    "Ten. X marks the spot."
    --Indiana Jones
    I like that side. I do also like the newest info from Russian itself. "Russian Warships in the age of sail"
    Be safe
    Rory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    Eric
    Could we have a folder to organise all these hints to make it easier for newbies...or even oldies
    I will talk with Keith about this, and when we return from the convention, we'll set up some subfolders and do some organizing. There are so many good ideas floating around here that I fear will get lost over time. Same with the 'Drome. If you are offline for awhile, you can miss a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berthier View Post
    I seem to recall we had a discussion about this maybe a year ago. I think the final outcome was they may have been originally painted green but turned black over time, or, they may have been black but turned green over time as that is what paints can do in weather, UV damage etc etc. So, whatever you paint you could be right but you could be wrong!
    I am trying to do some daily events on the 'Drome, and between those and the ones I did here last year, I have come to believe that historical analysis can be rife with problems and discrepancies. It always makes me a bit hesitant to hit the post button. I just don't know why folks didn't anticipate all the questions we would have today.

  7. #307
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    Is there a "how to" to apply the rat lines to the ships, mine have arrived and I intend to rig wave 1 while watching the football. Although after last nights England performance I am not relishing our chances

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capn Duff View Post
    Is there a "how to" to apply the rat lines to the ships, mine have arrived and I intend to rig wave 1 while watching the football. Although after last nights England performance I am not relishing our chances
    Not yet, but you can see one test photo Keith did in post #130 of this thread. I think Michael (mdavis41) might be the closest to having a ship completed? I've got to pick up a set of the micro tweezers before I can proceed. The set I have will work with the Langton ratlines but not these.

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    To get ready for my next attempt I:

    1. Removed all the brass shrouds from attempt 1 and 2.
    2. Bought a new Bausch & Lomb Magna Visor with Lens Set
    3. Bought a new set of precision tweezers
    4. Bought from Brookhurst Hobby some of their INSTA-CURE SUPER THIN CYANOACRYLATE and EXTRA-FINE EXTENDER TIPS
    5. Drove to San Diego to study HMS Surprise. I have posted images on my Blog at:

    http://horseandmusket2.blogspot.com/...go-harbor.html

    I will post some image of my models when I finally get this right. But I'm working at it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    Who side are you on!!!!
    Y'know, I think the skull-and-crossbones flag is a *REAL BIG CLUE*.... ;)

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    "Chaos. Disorder. Panic. My work here is done." :p

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    Here is a photo of the ratlines sprayed with regular Rust-oleum flat black. This is a ratline for a SOL (SN104). I did a couple of quick passes over each side.


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  13. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    Here is a photo of the ratlines sprayed with regular Rust-oleum flat black. This is a ratline for a SOL (SN104). I did a couple of quick passes over each side.
    They look good! Are you going to try sealing them with a dull coat finish?

  14. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis41 View Post
    To get ready for my next attempt I:

    1. Removed all the brass shrouds from attempt 1 and 2.
    2. Bought a new Bausch & Lomb Magna Visor with Lens Set
    3. Bought a new set of precision tweezers
    4. Bought from Brookhurst Hobby some of their INSTA-CURE SUPER THIN CYANOACRYLATE and EXTRA-FINE EXTENDER TIPS
    5. Drove to San Diego to study HMS Surprise. I have posted images on my Blog at:

    http://horseandmusket2.blogspot.com/...go-harbor.html

    I will post some image of my models when I finally get this right. But I'm working at it!
    You've got a plan and the right tools so you should be set. Coincidentally I was at the Last Square (our FLGS) today and we were talking about the insta cure stuff. I did buy a bottle of Zip Kicker from ZAP, but now I'm not sure I want to try it on the ratlines? The process on this stuff generates a lot of heat and there's a chance of white residue. It's also fairly toxic? I may test it on some spare brass parts first before I touch the Anchorage ratlines.

    Thanks for the picture as well.

  15. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    The louder the shout! We all thought the world was flat! "2 wrongs do not make a right! You are too much of a friend. I care too much. Paint them green if you wish, but I wish to see photos my friend.
    Be safe
    Rory
    Maybe so but, one wrong, is still a WRONG. The next time I go to Oktoberfest I'll try to layover in London & spring for a pint or two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    You've got a plan and the right tools so you should be set. Coincidentally I was at the Last Square (our FLGS) today and we were talking about the insta cure stuff. I did buy a bottle of Zip Kicker from ZAP, but now I'm not sure I want to try it on the ratlines? The process on this stuff generates a lot of heat and there's a chance of white residue. It's also fairly toxic? I may test it on some spare brass parts first before I touch the Anchorage ratlines.

    Thanks for the picture as well.
    If you use Kicker on them, use this method. Spray a good amount into a bowl or lid so that you can dip a toothpick or something similar (you may have to let the wood soak up the Kicker). You want to get just a little on your toothpick like tool and just rub it onto the parts of the ratlines you want to attach. Put your glue on the masts and then set your lines in place. The small amount of Kicker will make them stick right away, but should not be enough to cure the entire amount of glue (avoiding the heat and white crust). Make sure you set them down exactly where you want them though!

    I've not done the above on the ratlines, but I've used it on similar delicate work before.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

  17. #317

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    If you use Kicker on them, use this method. Spray a good amount into a bowl or lid so that you can dip a toothpick or something similar (you may have to let the wood soak up the Kicker). You want to get just a little on your toothpick like tool and just rub it onto the parts of the ratlines you want to attach. Put your glue on the masts and then set your lines in place. The small amount of Kicker will make them stick right away, but should not be enough to cure the entire amount of glue (avoiding the heat and white crust). Make sure you set them down exactly where you want them though!

    I've not done the above on the ratlines, but I've used it on similar delicate work before.
    Great tip that I'll definitely have to try. Thanks Keith!

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    They look good! Are you going to try sealing them with a dull coat finish?
    Good question. I usually hit the completed models with dull coat (I use a Krylon matt sealer vs. Testors), maybe in this case I'll hit the ratlines first.

    I need to get a needle tip for my glue first. I saw a method of using regular CA with an accelerant applied after the piece is set in place. This may be a solution to the Kicker glue being too strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    Maybe so but, one wrong, is still a WRONG.
    Just remember the moral of the story of the Chinese brothers who failed to raise their father from the grave: "Two Wongs don't make a Wight."

    <- flees ahead of incoming fire

  20. #320

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    Good question. I usually hit the completed models with dull coat (I use a Krylon matt sealer vs. Testors), maybe in this case I'll hit the ratlines first.

    I need to get a needle tip for my glue first. I saw a method of using regular CA with an accelerant applied after the piece is set in place. This may be a solution to the Kicker glue being too strong.
    I may try Keith's method as posted above. You have more control with the toothpick and/or a needle and the reaction shouldn't spread too much? I use a needle now to apply the glue as I don't usually have much luck with the needle tips?

  21. #321
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    Be careful about hitting your minis with Kicker. It can leave "droplet" spots when sprayed on with the mister top they come with. That's another reason I use the toothpick method I mentioned above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    I may try Keith's method as posted above. You have more control with the toothpick and/or a needle and the reaction shouldn't spread too much? I use a needle now to apply the glue as I don't usually have much luck with the needle tips?
    I think that will be your best method Jim. A needle for the glue and Kicker. I used to do this a lot back in my modeling and mini painting/building days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

  23. #323

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    Here's one side of the HMS Bellona completed. Unfortunately, I did not follow the cardinal rule of carpentry; measure twice, cut once. Somehow I managed to get SGN102 ratlines on the Bellona, which is an SGN104B ship. I didn't really notice any major issues until I got to the lower set for the mizzenmast. Then it was obvious that a match up wasn't exact and I know Keith was very exact in his measurements. I'm going to complete the ship with the other half of the set, but I do have a question for Keith.

    Are the upper ratlines supposed to go from the outer edge of the fighting tops up to the bottom of the next level fighting tops? That's my assumption based on how the Langton ratlines work, but on those you could also move them closer in, essentially resting on the platform.

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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmoss View Post
    Here's one side of the HMS Bellona completed. Unfortunately, I did not follow the cardinal rule of carpentry; measure twice, cut once. Somehow I managed to get SGN102 ratlines on the Bellona, which is an SGN104B ship. I didn't really notice any major issues until I got to the lower set for the mizzenmast. Then it was obvious that a match up wasn't exact and I know Keith was very exact in his measurements. I'm going to complete the ship with the other half of the set, but I do have a question for Keith.

    Are the upper ratlines supposed to go from the outer edge of the fighting tops up to the bottom of the next level fighting tops? That's my assumption based on how the Langton ratlines work, but on those you could also move them closer in, essentially resting on the platform.
    No Jim,
    You are right. from Bulwark to mast under the fighting top. Then from edge of fighting top to mast under the 2nd top. they look very nice Jim
    Be safe
    Rory

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    Jim, I see that Rory answered your question on the upper ratline placement. And yes, the lines are made to fit only the ship they are designed for ;) But I don't think anyone will really notice, she is looking quite fine indeed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

  26. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Jim, I see that Rory answered your question on the upper ratline placement. And yes, the lines are made to fit only the ship they are designed for ;) But I don't think anyone will really notice, she is looking quite fine indeed!
    She turned out OK, even with the wrong ratlines. I'll need to reorder some of the ratlines, doh! Are we still on hold until later this summer? Thanks.

    Oh, a quick P.S. Save the brass sheets that the ratlines come in. I've already used one section to make a black pennant. Even more uses for the AA Accessories!

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  27. #327

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    No Jim,
    You are right. from Bulwark to mast under the fighting top. Then from edge of fighting top to mast under the 2nd top. they look very nice Jim
    Be safe
    Rory
    Thanks Rory. Your fast reply is much appreciated.

  28. #328
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    She look more then okay Jim! I should have the ratlines back up in the store next week when I get back from Origins. At least, the rest of my initial production run should be waiting on me when I get back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

  29. #329

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    those are amazingly delicate--super cool!

  30. #330

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    Has Keith said anything about wave 2 ratlines yet? The weak wave 2 masts need all the help they can get. Maybe the ratlines should be made out of stainless steel.

  31. #331

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner View Post
    Has Keith said anything about wave 2 ratlines yet? The weak wave 2 masts need all the help they can get. Maybe the ratlines should be made out of stainless steel.
    Not that I'm aware of. I did ask about Wave 2 ratlines some time ago, but at that point Keith hadn't seen any of the new ships. I think the ship masts from Wave 2 would get more stability from rigging as opposed to the brass ratlines. They look phenomenal, but there's very little structural support. Steel ratlines at least for the 1st rates and frigates might be a good idea?

  32. #332
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    The ships look great Jim!

    Are you using the Langton rigging method for your standing rigging?

  33. #333

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    The ships look great Jim!

    Are you using the Langton rigging method for your standing rigging?
    Thanks Eric. Yes, I use Langton's guide. I don't always use the "special knot" because mast tension can be an issue. Also, the tops sometimes don't allow for laying the rigging as indicated, but overall it's 99.9% according to Rod's book.

  34. #334
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    I notice the store is out of stock on all ratlines. Any idea when there will be more?

  35. #335

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volunteer View Post
    I notice the store is out of stock on all ratlines. Any idea when there will be more?
    Keith said he was expecting the rest of his shipment to arrive next week. He's at Origins right now so I wouldn't expect to see anything show up online until mid week or later depending on his post convention recovery time?

  36. #336
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    Looking at the spars on most ships, they appear to have stuns'l booms on the lower yards. If so, should these be yellow ochre for Nelson colour-scheme ships, rather than all black? Would spars and stuns'l booms be all black in earlier British ships? On Victory, they are ochre.

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  37. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis41 View Post
    Looking at the spars on most ships, they appear to have stuns'l booms on the lower yards. If so, should these be yellow ochre for Nelson colour-scheme ships, rather than all black? Would spars and stuns'l booms be all black in earlier British ships? On Victory, they are ochre.
    I couldn't tell you for certain, but color schemes probably changed over time, although they might have started to be standardized by Trafalgar. Rory, Vol or others can probably give you a more definitive answer.

  38. #338
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    I am going to use the thread recommended by Rod Langton for standing and running rigging. However, for the extra thick braces, does anyone have a specific thread they use and can recommend that is in scale with the Ares ships?

  39. #339
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    The rest of my Wave 1 ratlines showed up while I was gone. I've not had a chance to open them and check that all is okay yet. Hopefully today.

    I'll start designing Wave 2 ratlines some time this month. I've just been to busy dealing with things since the actual ships showed up. I'm not sure if I'll stick with brass or switch to SS for Wave 2, but I'm thinking a ever so slightly thicker metal could be used with out ruining the great looks of these lines. That would make them a little easier to work with I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Breeze View Post
    I just didn't want to be seen as the, "Thread Pirate Roberts" and get too far off topic.

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    I'm not sure if I'll stick with brass or switch to SS for Wave 2, but I'm thinking a ever so slightly thicker metal could be used with out ruining the great looks of these lines. That would make them a little easier to work with I think.
    You certainly have my vote.!
    Thicker - would also alleviate some of the 'rough handling' at conventions and/or after too much rum.

  41. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    The rest of my Wave 1 ratlines showed up while I was gone. I've not had a chance to open them and check that all is okay yet. Hopefully today.

    I'll start designing Wave 2 ratlines some time this month. I've just been to busy dealing with things since the actual ships showed up. I'm not sure if I'll stick with brass or switch to SS for Wave 2, but I'm thinking a ever so slightly thicker metal could be used with out ruining the great looks of these lines. That would make them a little easier to work with I think.
    I'll most likely purchase them whether they're brass or stainless steel, but the sturdier ss ratlines would help in the initial application and help firm up any mast issues at the same time. I can't recall if you said there was a cost difference between the two metals?

  42. #342

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis41 View Post
    I am going to use the thread recommended by Rod Langton for standing and running rigging. However, for the extra thick braces, does anyone have a specific thread they use and can recommend that is in scale with the Ares ships?
    I've used the same thread for all the standing rigging and haven't attempted running rigging yet. One common feeling which I share is never use cotton thread. At least in this household it attracts dust and it has a tendency to stretch, especially when it gets humid. Use nylon thread or possibly the monofilament 'miracle thread'?

  43. #343

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    Quote Originally Posted by kippryon View Post
    You certainly have my vote.!
    Thicker - would also alleviate some of the 'rough handling' at conventions and/or after too much rum.
    +1. I agree with Kipp.

  44. #344
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    I have just tried attaching the ratlines to my first ship. It takes a lot of patience, as these are super delicate, but they do look good when on.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]10254
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  45. #345
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    Nicely done, Chris.

    She looks beautiful.

    I was telling someone at Origins about your 1:300 ship. He, too, does some larger scale modeling.

  46. #346

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    Excellent, Chris!! Very impressive work especially including the running rigging. I do believe you are the first person I've seen to attempt that and it looks great.

  47. #347
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    Many thanks for the comments

    I only got into the 300 scale modelling when i was waiting for SGN to be released, then i said i would only do a small sloop, then when we were still waiting, i thought to hell with it and made the frigate. How in justified to myself doing the victory though, I'm not quite sure. Glad i did though. Now i have this all these SGN ships to distract me, i doubt ill do anymore 300 modelling for a while, unless langton release something new of course....

    Jim, i lack your precision with modelling, being far more slapdash in my approach, so i make up for it by adding more and more rigging instead. The accuracy of your rigging, with everything taught and correct is amazing, you must be a neural surgeon or dentist to be so precise. By the way, good idea with drilling rigging holes in the hull, i very much stole that idea directly from you. Not sure if i went overboard with the size of the tricolour, but i wanted it to be easily seen for gaming, I can always say this was a very patriotic french ship.

  48. #348
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    Hi Chris,
    Very,very nice. You have made her look like a wargame model. The only thing is only British ships ran running-run back from the Mizzen mast yard-arms to the top of the Spanker.
    Be safe
    Rory

  49. #349

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    Dam_ French copycats.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devsdoc View Post
    Hi Chris,
    Very,very nice. You have made her look like a wargame model. The only thing is only British ships ran running-run back from the Mizzen mast yard-arms to the top of the Spanker.
    Be safe
    Rory
    Interesting, i vaguely remember a discussion about that here some time ago. How did the french rig there mizzen masts?

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