Page 1 of 10 12345678910 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 474

Thread: Photo Etched Brass Ratlines

  1. #1
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default Photo Etched Brass Ratlines

    Okay, this topic pops up in quite a few threads and I know lots of us are thinking about them.

    What do we really need to outfit the Wave 1 ships? Does each ship need a total of 12 ratlines, one on each side at both levels of all there masts?

    The vertical lines appear to be secured very tightly, so those would be straight lines angled in at the top to where they all connect in one spot. But what about the horizontal lines, are they tight as well, or should they have some sag modeled in them?

    Finally, what price range would you honestly spend to add ratlines to your ship?

  2. #2
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    100
    Name
    Todd

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Finally, what price range would you honestly spend to add ratlines to your ship?
    I know I've spent near $10 on sets of decals that I intended to use on one plane, so I could justify spending at least that for a properly sized and fitted set of ratlines (assuming I convince myself to try rigging one). But I think I'd be happier buying enough for 3-4 ships for $15-20. At $10 per ship I do start to think about the costs of multiple conversions...

  3. #3

    Default

    I'd probably want to follow Langton's brass ratline formatting as much as possible, so 12 ratlines for each ship, whether or not they're frigates or larger. Langton prices are pretty reasonable at under $5.00 a set.

    As to how they'd all fit on the SoG ships I'll leave to others to discuss. I do know that of the five metal ships I've built I've had to trim back almost all of the brass ratlines to get them to fit properly, so they might work OK for the larger 1/1000 SoG ships (someone has mentioned we might have to swap down; so 3 decker ratlines would work on a frigate, etc.)?

    It would be great if Ares or the Anchorage store would make a 'set' of ratlines for the starter sets, either in brass or conceivably in semi flexible plastic? Saying that makes me think of 3D printing or custom plastic casting?

    It will be interesting to see what others have to say. I'm sure a lot of people aren't going to want to spend the time or money to do that for these ships.

  4. #4
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Thanks for the feedback Todd and Jim. I'm looking into having brass ratlines made up for the SGN ships so that they fit properly. No clue yet on prices, but I'm thinking they will be more expensive the the Langton ones just due to less people wanting them. There are going to be fewer SGN players then there are all other AoS games, and the players of SGN are going be much less likely to deck out their ships. I guess we'll just have to see how it goes.

  5. #5
    Former Admiral of the Fleet
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    I think cost will be a driver here. It seems to me that if you're going to enhance ships, you will probably want to enhance most, if not all, of them. I imagine one might want to enhance only certain ships, e.g. Constitution, Victory, flagships, but I don't know how that would affect the visuals of the game - some with ratlines, others without. If the ratlines were close to $10 per ship, the price tag for Captain or Commodore KS levels would add up pretty quickly. If the price for ratlines approaches a decent percentage of the price for a mini, I would probably go with another mini.

    Keith, this is where your paintbrush-rigging idea really shines. For a couple of dollars and a few hours, folks can significantly improve the look of their entire fleet, and if the rigging gets damaged during game play, the fix is easy and inexpensive. That was a brilliant thread, pun definitely intended.

  6. #6
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Yes, price is going to be the major factor here. My current line of thought is that if it is more than $5 a ship, it will not sell well enough to warrant producing them.

  7. #7
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Pushing forward with this project, does the placement shown in the image below look correct to you salty dogs?

  8. #8
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Illinois
    Log Entries
    116
    Name
    Scott

    Default

    So... at first glance I was trying to figure out why you were using green and red plastic for ratlines. And then at second glance I'm thinking that it may be time for some new glasses!

  9. #9
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    lol, yeah, that is just a quick MS Paint knock up of what I believe the ratlines should connect. I still have to figure out the exact angles and number of lines needed though. Any help in that department would be greatly appreciated.

  10. #10

    Default

    My two cents, but I may be a little more critical than most. The lines should really connect to the mast below the top, not to the side of the top. The one going from the top to the next top should start on the edge of the top as you've shown in green, then go to the mast below the uppermost top.

    Not only would the design be more historically correct, it would allow for some "messyness" in attaching it and you wouldn't be trying to glue the bottom set to the platform side, then glueing the top set on top of the bottom set on the side of the platform. Hopefully that makes sense!

    So it would provide a more historic look, and look cleaner as well (less glue, or if you do make a mess, some parts are hidden below the fighting tops).

    Now, question is - can you get the correct angle from the bottom attachment boards to the mast without hitting the side of the ship?

    As far as price, I'd probably pay up to about $10 a ship to get my ships to look good. Personally, I'd rather have 10 nice looking ships all rigged up over 20 ships. That's just one man's thoughts though.

  11. #11

    Default

    Oh, Hajj - I'd be willing to help with this project if you'd like! I'm all for putting the time in up front to get this done well so the entire community can benefit from the time and effort I spend doing it. Without having my ships in hand till December, not sure if you're looking to do something prior to that?

  12. #12
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Thanks Ryan. I'm very much a landsman in this area, so any help is appreciated. I'll break your reply down by parts to make this easier...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter View Post
    My two cents, but I may be a little more critical than most. The lines should really connect to the mast below the top, not to the side of the top. The one going from the top to the next top should start on the edge of the top as you've shown in green, then go to the mast below the uppermost top.

    Not only would the design be more historically correct, it would allow for some "messyness" in attaching it and you wouldn't be trying to glue the bottom set to the platform side, then glueing the top set on top of the bottom set on the side of the platform. Hopefully that makes sense!
    My thoughts were that it would be easier for the majority of player, since they are not modelers, to glue the top of the ratlines to the nice flat side of the top and the bottom of the next ratline to the top of the top. Would this be too much of a sacrifice in realism? The other issue here is that not all of the mast will be glued to the ship in the exact same way from ship to ship. Going to the side of the top would allow for a little more play in the fitment I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter View Post
    Now, question is - can you get the correct angle from the bottom attachment boards to the mast without hitting the side of the ship?
    I still have to work this part out, but I think so from my initial tests... but that was going from the boards to the side of the tops (which cuts the angle down quite a bit). One major concern I have is that a few of the minis have cannon barrels sticking out over the boards. These are going to get in the way I know. Not sure how to really deal with that yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter View Post
    As far as price, I'd probably pay up to about $10 a ship to get my ships to look good. Personally, I'd rather have 10 nice looking ships all rigged up over 20 ships. That's just one man's thoughts though.
    I'm really hoping that they would not be that expensive. The ideal target price for me would be $4.99 to rat out a single ship.

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    My thoughts were that it would be easier for the majority of player, since they are not modelers, to glue the top of the ratlines to the nice flat side of the top and the bottom of the next ratline to the top of the top. Would this be too much of a sacrifice in realism?

    ......

    The ideal target price for me would be $4.99 to rat out a single ship.
    My 0.02 - I've seen models where the ratlines go to the sides of the fighting tops rather than the mast and they looked horrible, so my vote would be to go for the more accurate approach since it is also the most attractive approach by far.

    Price point is good. It may also be worth seeing whether you could accommodate fittings for more than one ship in a $4.99 sheet.

  14. #14
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Thanks David, that's the kind of feedback I need. While I'd like to offer more than a single ship for $4.99, I don't think it is going to be possible (and is just an estimated price at this point). The Langton ratlines are $3 a ship and they have the luxury of a much larger market to help bring the price down.

  15. #15

    Default

    I agree with David, if we really want to go down this route, should do it accurately if possible. Your point on masts not being exact on ship to ship, I this is even a bigger challenge for doing it to the sides of the tops. If one mast is angled more than say another, the lines sit square on the bottom, but not on the side of the top. Attaching to the mast somewhat alleviates this challenge. Since the top set of lines is wholly attached to the mast, going from outside of top to either attachement point isn't as much of a problem.

    My other advice is make the spacing between rungs smaller than what Langton does. I always thought it looked somewhat funny looking being that out of scale, but I try and go for a more accurate look as you can tell my many of my posts.

  16. #16
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Should my green lines in the image above be going from the lowest top to the next top as shown, or should they be going all the way up to upper most yard?

  17. #17

    Default

    This piccie should help
    Name:  English+3rd+rate+5.jpg
Views: 2893
Size:  181.2 KB

  18. #18

    Default

    Have to look at some closer diagrams, but I believe it's outside of tops to mast below the next top.

  19. #19
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Okay, that is what I was thinking and this old diagram of mine is showing...



    But it shows lower shrouds, topmast shrouds and topgallant shrouds. This diagram also shows three sets of three per side...

    Name:  Rigging.jpg
Views: 3204
Size:  178.4 KB

    Earlier in the thread we had discussed three sets of two as what we needed. Do we need the third set up top? On the SOLs, the Mizzen Mast shroud is only going to be 3mm wide and 8mm tall. Not to mention it will have very few "lines". So is it going to be worth the extra trouble and expense?

  20. #20

    Default

    I'd say not. For those ships where I've fitted them I've only used the lower 2 sets. given the scale of the models I felt it was overkill to fith higher ones and risked giving the model an excessively top heavy and cluttered look.

  21. #21
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Thanks David, that was my personal opinion as well... but want to check with the experts.

  22. #22
    1st Lieutenant
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Delaware
    Log Entries
    1,010
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Okay, that is what I was thinking and this old diagram of mine is showing...



    But it shows lower shrouds, topmast shrouds and topgallant shrouds. This diagram also shows three sets of three per side...

    Name:  Rigging.jpg
Views: 3204
Size:  178.4 KB

    Earlier in the thread we had discussed three sets of two as what we needed. Do we need the third set up top? On the SOLs, the Mizzen Mast shroud is only going to be 3mm wide and 8mm tall. Not to mention it will have very few "lines". So is it going to be worth the extra trouble and expense?
    Here is my .02c on this issue. I am with David and Mad Hatter on the accuracy of the placement, ie; placing the top of the ratlines/shrouds inboard of the tops. Also on my 1/1200 models I never bothered with the t'gallant shrouds either. You can still model the backstays with line or your paint brush method and those lines can cover for the missing shrouds.

    I don't think that placing them on the outside of the tops would look right from a sailors perspective, especially having climbed real ones!! In a larger scale you could model the futtock shrouds which attach to the side of the tops but at the opposite angle. (you can faintly see them in the diagram above).

    As for the bottom of the shrouds, they should attach to the top of the channel on the side of the ship as pictured in your sample. Technically you have a pair of deadeyes which the lower end of each shroud is run though to form a lanyard for tightening. The bottom deadeye is attached to the top of the channel on the outboard end. I have seen Langtons with the deadeyes painted on. Normally you would have chain plates under the channel which you can see in the diagrams, but at our scale they are not modeled. This should not interfere with cannon barrels on the model, except possibly for quarterdeck guns.

    I would be interested in buying these if you do them.

    Eric

  23. #23

    Default

    Yep, checked my books - things look correct in your drawing as well. I also agree, no need for the topmost set, the bottom two would suffice.

  24. #24
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    100
    Name
    Todd

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Earlier in the thread we had discussed three sets of two as what we needed. Do we need the third set up top? On the SOLs, the Mizzen Mast shroud is only going to be 3mm wide and 8mm tall. Not to mention it will have very few "lines". So is it going to be worth the extra trouble and expense?
    I can see the argument that they may be small enough to not be missed, but I'd just like to put forth the argument for consideration: are they small enough that they're not worth omitting? They look to be about maybe 10% of the area of the main ratlines? I'd think that they might be small enough to fit in the otherwise dead spaces of the sprue, with a marginal addition ot materials cost, then leave it to the customer to decide whether they're worth fiddling with.

  25. #25
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Was home sick today, so had some time to work on the proof of concept for these...



    The flags on both British ships get in the way of the lower aft shrouds. Not sure what to do about that other than suggest replacing the flag or repositioning it to allow the shroud to fit? I think this will vary from ship to ship quite a bit, so it could effect some French minis as well. Do you guys think this is a cause for concern?

    The P/E company is going to work up the fret designs for me now. Each ship class will have it's own fret with 12 shrouds on it. This will allow everyone to order the exact number of each type they need. This project is moving along rather well at this point.

  26. #26
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudotheist View Post
    I can see the argument that they may be small enough to not be missed, but I'd just like to put forth the argument for consideration: are they small enough that they're not worth omitting? They look to be about maybe 10% of the area of the main ratlines? I'd think that they might be small enough to fit in the otherwise dead spaces of the sprue, with a marginal addition ot materials cost, then leave it to the customer to decide whether they're worth fiddling with.
    On the frigates, the after top most shroud would only be 2mm wide by about 7mm tall... that's about 30% smaller then the one below it (printed green in the image I just posted). The aft middle was so fiddly, I'm not even going to bother with the very top one. While it's true they don't use much material, the do add to the setup costs as they have to be drawn out. I just don't see more then maybe 1% of the customer actually using them, so not really worth it.

  27. #27
    1st Lieutenant
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Delaware
    Log Entries
    1,010
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudotheist View Post
    I can see the argument that they may be small enough to not be missed, but I'd just like to put forth the argument for consideration: are they small enough that they're not worth omitting? They look to be about maybe 10% of the area of the main ratlines? I'd think that they might be small enough to fit in the otherwise dead spaces of the sprue, with a marginal addition ot materials cost, then leave it to the customer to decide whether they're worth fiddling with.
    Looking at the pictures of the models that Keith posted I think that if you rig backstays to the mast tops that dead space will be covered.

    I would not have a problem with the shrouds covering the flags. I'll probably try to move the flags anyway.

    Eric

  28. #28
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    I would not have a problem with the shrouds covering the flags. I'll probably try to move the flags anyway.

    Eric
    The problem is not that the shrouds cover the flags, but that the flags interfere with the shrouds reaching the masts. It's hard to see in that photo, but the aft lower shroud on both the British ships is unable to connect to the mast because the flag is in the way.

  29. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Was home sick today, so had some time to work on the proof of concept for these...



    The flags on both British ships get in the way of the lower aft shrouds. Not sure what to do about that other than suggest replacing the flag or repositioning it to allow the shroud to fit? I think this will vary from ship to ship quite a bit, so it could effect some French minis as well. Do you guys think this is a cause for concern?

    The P/E company is going to work up the fret designs for me now. Each ship class will have it's own fret with 12 shrouds on it. This will allow everyone to order the exact number of each type they need. This project is moving along rather well at this point.
    If I am going to the trouble of putting rigging on a ship, the flag on a staff would have to go anyway as it is not the way the flag was displayed. It should be on a line.

  30. #30
    1st Lieutenant
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Delaware
    Log Entries
    1,010
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coog View Post
    If I am going to the trouble of putting rigging on a ship, the flag on a staff would have to go anyway as it is not the way the flag was displayed. It should be on a line.
    That's what I would do with it. As was noted in another thread, the flag would be on a halyard on the mizzen gaff. Of course I may start playing and forget about rigging them!!

    Eric

  31. #31
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    The ratlines drawn out to match my colored test shapes:



    And what the four different frets would look like:



    Price looks like it is going to be $3.75 per ship, much better than I was hoping for to be honest! Now it looks like my biggest question is how many to order initially since there is a decent amount of lead time need to produce these.

  32. #32
    1st Lieutenant
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Delaware
    Log Entries
    1,010
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    They look good and so does the price!

    I'd buy at least 10 sets to start with.

    Is this a good question for a Poll?

    Eric

  33. #33
    Awards Officer
    2nd Lieutenant
    United States

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Prescott, Arizona
    Log Entries
    661
    Name
    Bruce

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    The ratlines drawn out to match my colored test shapes:



    And what the four different frets would look like:



    Price looks like it is going to be $3.75 per ship, much better than I was hoping for to be honest! Now it looks like my biggest question is how many to order initially since there is a decent amount of lead time need to produce these.
    Put me down for 4 sets of each one of the 4 for sure,
    but if you need to make a minimum quantity for the initial order, let's talk.

  34. #34
    Former Admiral of the Fleet
    United States

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Chicago/Bloomington IL
    Log Entries
    5,095
    Name
    Eric

    Default

    Four sets of each to start. For conventions, these will enhance the look of the ships quite nicely.

  35. #35
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Illinois
    Log Entries
    116
    Name
    Scott

    Default

    I'm in for one of each of the four.

  36. #36
    Midshipman
    UK

    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Bristol
    Log Entries
    192
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    Assuming your prepared to ship to England, then you can put me down for an order of shrouds to fill the captains pledge. Remember: England expects

  37. #37
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Maryland
    Log Entries
    100
    Name
    Todd

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal Hajj View Post
    Price looks like it is going to be $3.75 per ship, much better than I was hoping for to be honest! Now it looks like my biggest question is how many to order initially since there is a decent amount of lead time need to produce these.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeRuyter View Post
    Is this a good question for a Poll?
    Just put them up for pre-order for the rest of the month. Then manufacture 3-5 times the pre-order ammount.

    I'd be in for a set.

  38. #38
    Master & Commander
    United States

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Oregon
    Log Entries
    2,027
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    I'd need to remember how many and what types of mini I'm getting before I could say for sure.... :)

    That said: Given how clumsy I am, esp. with tiny objects like these, I think the brass is a better option for me than trying to use thread.

  39. #39
    2nd Lieutenant
    UK

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Dorset
    Log Entries
    961
    Name
    Rory

    Default

    Hi Kieth,
    I like your ratlines. They will made the ships stronger and look better. I to think losing the top ratlines is O.K. Would making the top of the ratlines flatter and less pointy to be, better looking and easier to place on the mast? I am not going to buy into them (not buying the ships) but think this is so good.
    Be safe
    Rory

  40. #40

    Default

    Wow Keith, these look NICE!

    I'll be getting at a minimum, all the ships, probably a few extras of the paint schemes I like. I'll want lines for all of them, so put me down for at least a dozen, likely more.

  41. #41

    Default

    Oh, I agree on the flag. If I'm going through this much effort (along with rigging), I'm swapping out those flags for more accurate mizzen mounted ones. I wouldn't worry about that aspect, I think most people would fall into this boat.

  42. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Hatter View Post
    I think most people would fall into this boat.
    The French never fall Sir, they trip gracefully.

  43. #43

    Default

    Keith
    I would take two sets to start with and see how modelling skills hold up!

  44. #44
    Midshipman
    United States

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NH
    Log Entries
    365
    Name
    Lawrence

    Default

    I really like these as well but TBH I'm going to have to play for a little while first before I start any mod work. I've been waiting SO long!!!!

    After that though I will probably start drydocking and doing mod work like this (and very interested in what else people do to enhance realism, such as moving the flag).

  45. #45
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    These ratlines will not take a ship out of action really. Spray them black and dip each end in some glue and than stick them on the model. It will take a bit of precision, no great skill or time involved. And since they are just adding to the ship and not really modifying it, you could do one an evening and not effect any games the day of or after.

  46. #46

    Default

    I'll order a set of each. If I like them, I'll order more for the rest of the fleet.

  47. #47
    Captain of the Fleet
    Master & Commander
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    South Glos
    Log Entries
    1,706
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    I would take some of these also.
    A couple of starter sets worth at least. But do they have to be brass? would a soft plastic not be as good?
    Before emptying a few broadsides at me chaps, I am a novice with naval games, the last I owned was WW1, so I am just asking is all :)

  48. #48
    First Naval Lord
    United States

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Colorado
    Log Entries
    1,539
    Name
    Keith

    Default

    They will actually be made of stainless steel. Much stronger then brass. Making them out of plastic would require injection molding them and the thousands of dollars is start up costs associated with that process.

  49. #49
    Captain of the Fleet
    Master & Commander
    UK

    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    South Glos
    Log Entries
    1,706
    Name
    Chris

    Default

    Fair one, Ill go back to the galley

  50. #50

    Default

    I will be getting some. After seeing and playing with the ships at Millenniumcon, I was very pleased with the ships. The plastic between the sails and the mast were barely noticeable. With the ratlines you will have to look hard to notice it.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •