Stretching Sculpts: SGN108 and SGN201 British First Rates

Since SGN108 and SGN201's sculpts are both based on HMS Victory, I'm addressing them as a single "merged" sculpt with High End and Low End versions.

First, let's start by comparing the ships that were all tossed together into this sculpt.

1745 Establishment 100 (1756 Royal George and 1762 Britannia)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1155/large.jpg

1765 HMS Victory (three-decker based on Triumph 74, ultimately on 1744 French Invincible 74
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...8551/large.jpg

1786 HMS Royal Sovereign (suspected):
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4192/large.jpg

1788 Royal George, 1800 Queen Charlotte:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...8608/large.jpg

1810 Queen Charlotte (enclosed gallery redesign)
https://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaL.../119/j1997.jpg

1795 HMS Ville de Paris:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1197/large.jpg

1804 HMS Hibernia: (shows Hibernia's 11' stretch of the Ville de Paris design, no really good 3-views available)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...8479/large.jpg

Next post, I'll break these down by designer and look at Second Rates that came from the same hand, starting with Allin's 1756 Royal George.

So, looking at Allin's work first as the oldest...

1745 Establishment 100
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1155/large.jpg

1756 Neptune 90
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...9977/large.jpg

1756 Namur 90 (Bately stretch of Allin's Neptune design)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...2826/large.jpg

Class	Length on Gundeck	Breadth	Lower	Middle	Upper	Quarterdeck	Forecastle
1756 Royal George 100	54.25m	15.8m	30x32#	28x24#	30x12#	10x6# (1762-1803) 12x12# (1803 on)	2x6# (1762-1803) 2x12#+2x24#crde (1803 on)
1756 Neptune 90	52.12m	14.78m	26x32#	26x18#	26x12#	10x6# as-built 10x12# later	2x6# as-built 2x12# later
1756 Namur 90	53.34m	14.78m	26x32#	26x18#	26x12#	10x6# as-built 10x12# by 1793 “ + 6x18#crde 1794 on	2x6# as-built 2x12# by 1793 “ + 2x32#crde 1794 on

Right now, my gut tells me that IF we had an accurate 1756 Royal George sculpt, I would be comfortable using it to represent Allin and Bately's "baby sister" designs. Anyone see anything I'm missing that would be a problem there?

I doubt Slade cross-pollinated between his 1st and 2nd Rates, but I'll put the drawings up for comparison anyway. We might as well not bother with the Barfleurs, though--they were designed after the 1757 cutdown of 1719 Royal William into a 2nd Rate, which basically created a three-deck flush-decker without quarterdeck or forecastle, though the Barfleurs eventually had them retrofitted and armed.

1765 Victory (sculpt basis for SGN108 and SGN201)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...8551/large.jpg

1759 Sandwich 90
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...5260/large.jpg

1761 Ocean 90 (improved Sandwich)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...6673/large.jpg

1766 London 98 (Further improved Sandwich?)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...0837/large.jpg

1810 Boyne 98 (allegedly built to the lines of Victory, which was herself derated to a 98 as a prototype; drawing is sister 1811 Union)
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1964/large.jpg

Class	Length on Gundeck	Breadth	Lower	Middle	Upper	Quarterdeck	Forecastle
1765 HMS Victory 100	56.69m	15.8m	30x42# design 30x32# 1778 28x32# 1807	28x24# pre-1807 28x18# 1807	30x12#	10x6#	2x6#
1759 Sandwich 90	53.62m	14.94m	28x32#	28x18#	30x12#	2x6# as-built 2x12# 1790-on	2x6# as-built 8x12# 1790-on (Blenheim only)
1761 Ocean 90	53.62m	14.94m	28x32#	28x18#	30x12#	none	2x9#
1766 London 98	54.07m	14.94m	28x32#	30x18#	30x12#	None (as blt) 8x6# (1788) 8x12# (1790)	2x9# (blt) 2x12# (1790)
1810 Boyne 98	56.69m	15.8m	28x32#	30x18#	30x12#	4x12#+8x32#crde	2x12#+2x32#crde

The draught of Victory is severely deteriorated by age and poor handling before entering NMM custody, but it might be enough to render a Go/NoGo from--the Boynes I have high enough confidence in that I've already listed them as confirmed, since they're basically a clone from "Trafalgar Spec". Also, note that I have omitted many of Victory's variant rearmings, which could make around SEVEN different ship logs for SGN if memory serves me correctly.
EDIT: In light of the Boynes having such a close relationship... well, in paleontology they use a "type specimen" to define a new species and compare new finds to that, but sometimes when the type is compromised (for example, the type specimen for Spinosaurus aegypticus was destroyed in WWII) a second closely-matching specimen will be used as a "paratype," and thus we can similarly use Union's draught as a paratype for comparison to Victory in the missing sections.

I don't think I'd want to see the first-rate model reused to represent a second rate, even if it could be justified in principle.

Williams's ships are next up.

1786 Royal Sovereign 100
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...4192/large.jpg

1777 Duke 98
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1871/large.jpg

Class	Length on Gundeck	Breadth	Lower	Middle	Upper	Quarterdeck	Forecastle
1786 Royal Sovereign 100	56.69m	15.85m	28x42# (blt) 28x32# (1793-on)	28x24#	30x12#	10x12#	4x12#
1777 Duke 98	54.07m	15.24m	28x32#	30x18#	30x12#	8x6# (blt) 8x12# (1792)	2x9# (blt) 2x12# (1792)

Hunt's designs.

Umpire aka "New" Royal George 100
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...8608/large.jpg

1790 Boyne 98
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...2167/large.jpg

For Henslow, I'm only going to compare the earlier Ville de Paris.

Ville de Paris 100
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...1197/large.jpg

Dreadnought 98
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLi...6643/large.jpg

Almost all of the 98s, shapewise, seem to have a more pronounced "banana" curve along the topline than the 100's, except 1810 Boyne for obvious reasons.

Minor update, with an apology to Ares... Ville de Paris and Hibernia, per BWAS 1714-1792, are successive stretches of Royal Sovereign (each stretch gaining ten guns over the previous). So I will admit to having been overconservative... my last lingering reservation is more size than design relationship, but it's moved into the "*shrug*well, ok..." column for me.

Why am I thinking of the jokes about "Boeing's Great Fuselage Machine"?

AGAIN?! *stares*

lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diamondback

AGAIN?! *stares*

lol

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"Sometimes a Ship's Hull is just a Ship's Hull".... >;)

:smack:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diamondback

:smack:

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"...and sometimes it's the Good Ship _Venus_...."

<- hiding

So here's the bad news, guys... Ares got it backward. The SGN108 sculpt really only works well for nine ships, none of whose names it bears:
*1803 rebuild HMS Victory
*1805 HMS Ocean
*1808 HMS Caledonia
*1810 HMS Queen Charlotte
*1810 HMS Impregnable
*1810 HMS Boyne
*1811 HMS Union
*1814 HMS Nelson
*1815 HMS Howe

All others, including 1765 Victory as-built, are better served with the SGN201 sculpt. The cutoff for "open" vs "enclosed" galleries seems to be around the 1803 rebuild of Victory; all three Dreadnought second-rates had open galleries but Ocean had hers enclosed as part of the redesign that also stretched her, and Impregnable was IIRC a further stretch of that.

Very sad DB unless you are concentrating on the later war, where non of the named ships had a very active role to play. Still that only applys if you are sticking to historical scenarios, otherwise anything goes.
Rob.

Flag on the play, the Neptunes were redesigned with enclosed galleries so that's three more.

Open gallery First Rates use SGN201	Open gallery Second Rates use SGN201	Enclosed galleries, use SGN108
1756 HMS Royal George 1762 HMS Britannia 1765 HMS Victory as-built 1786 HMS Royal Sovereign 1788 HMS Royal George 1800 HMS Queen Charlotte 1795 HMS Ville de Paris	1756 HMS Neptune 1750s HMS Union 1756 HMS Namur 1759 HMS Sandwich 1761 HMS Blenheim 1766 HMS London 1769 HMS Queen 1777 HMS Duke 1782 HMS Atlas 1785 HMS St. George 1786 HMS Impregnable 1788 HMS Glory 1788 HMS Prince 1790 HMS Windsor Castle 1790 HMS Boyne 1794 HMS Prince of Wales	1797 HMS Neptune 1798 HMS Temeraire 1801 HMS Dreadnought 1803 rebuild HMS Victory ?1804 HMS Hibernia 1805 HMS Ocean 1808 HMS Caledonia 1810 HMS Queen Charlotte 1810 HMS Impregnable 1810 HMS Boyne 1811 HMS Union 1814 HMS Nelson 1815 HMS Howe

Not suitable for either sculpt: Royal William and the Barfleurs
So that gets us an even dozen for the SGN108 sculpt compared to twice that for SGN201.

Great work DB. Even I can follow that. I may now be having a rethink on one or two of my conversions.
Rob.

To be honest, I'm mainly keying on the stern galleries. Hopefully this only impacts "planned" and not "already cut"... my own plan is I'm gonna push Ares hard on the biggest open-gallery Second Rate possible then just play Musical Minis.

Good one DB. I hope you are successful in this. as Comptroller of the Navy Board you should have the final say in which new ships are approved for constructing! :wink:
Rob.

If I had my way, I'd kickstart us by having Ares partner with Rod Langton and basically mirror his entire catalog, then build out from there.

You know my thoughts on this as I did bring up the swapped hulls of 108 and 201.

I may be able to modify the ships, but it shouldn't be necessary and it's not really realistic on this scale, having to rebuild nearly every ship.

Still I approve of your verdicts.

Thanks Jonas.
I agree. Even I am not quite mad enough to try and rebuild every ship, even just to get Trafalgar and the Nile right would be too much of a task for me. I am going along with the nearest ship fits and hope that in the Future DB's efforts to sway Ares design programme pays off.
Rob.

I think you may need to switch to coffee for a while, sir. No, Captain Jonas at your service, sir.

My apologies to you Captain. It was in fact probably the coffee break that did it. I should not break for coffee in the middle of reading a Thread! G&t is innocent!
Rob.