After a very long wait, at last this book was delivered during the afternoon.
Now we can really get to grips with the Spanish Fleet.
Rob.
https://sailsofglory.org/attachment....id=59663&stc=1.
Printable View
After a very long wait, at last this book was delivered during the afternoon.
Now we can really get to grips with the Spanish Fleet.
Rob.
https://sailsofglory.org/attachment....id=59663&stc=1.
Received mine also today…… pretty, very pretty.
According to the preface there are some gaps but is a good as can be due to local sources
Unfortunately I have to wait. According to Amazon Germany, it will take until the end of June. AHHHHH
Using your newfound knowledge, do the Spanish ever make use of carronades on spar deck frigates like the British and Americans? In my hunt for the answer so far, it seems no, but that would be a significant weight of shot disadvantage at close range. I haven't found anything for the French using spar decked carronade frigates either.
Not had time to do anything but skim through the book yet Dobbs, but if I find anything I will let you know.
Rob.
After Amazon jerked me around for the last time (strange coincidence, them doing a Kendall Ozzel just as I finish the Lego model of Darth Vader's Executor), I transferred my order to Pen & Sword direct--better price AND faster delivery. My copy is somewhere in the airmail system between their shipping office in the Netherlands and me.
As soon as it's in hand I'll get to work, unless somebody else wants to start frontloading me... I would suggest concentrating on the SOL's of Trafalgar, heavy frigates and maybe any large-numbers ship-sloops or brigs over 28m LOD.
I did not realize that it was coming from Pen and Sword direct until it arrived with their little card in it DB.
In future I will take more notice, but when The Depository closed down I was in such a hurry to cover the resupply that I never checked anythingelse other than to get my order in.
I wonder if we will ever get one on the Dutch Navy and the US. Navy? Although I have a couple of good books on the US Navy already, the collector in me would like to get a complete set from Rif.
I look forward to your forthcoming deliberations and exposé on the errors and shortcomings of our current Spanish Fleet.
Rob.
There is a volume on the Dutch Navy but only in the 1600s, ditto the Russians but it's not quite up to Winfield caliber. Personally, my "dream team" for an American volume would be to see Winfield team up with Silverstone and Millar.
Sadly, even if it somehow turned out that the old molds had been quenched using the blood of children I doubt any force on Earth or in Heaven could get Ares to revisit and revise the deficiencies of our badly undersize Armada... so while I'll continue buying whatever they release, I'll use the official releases as references to paint, base and card 3d-printed replacements as possible.
Which reminds me, I still need to write up Backdating BHR... extending the mizzenmast by the height of the quarterdeck is gonna suck, as is correcting those dead-wrong lateen-rigged Tonnants.
Having re-enacted the 17th cent. for 30 years you would think that I would be interested in that period navy DB, but somehow it just does not do it for me.
Rob.
Side note I just saw that P&S released an epub version of the book and Amazon has it on Kindle. 20 pounds for the epub and 40 pounds for the hardback. 60 USD on Amazon. I think this type of reference you want in hardcopy form, and that is a steep price for epub.
ONLY 20GBP? Right now they're quoting me 30... and I have applications where I need both formats. Too ad they don't offer a "buy both" or "already own one? add the other" discount...
Write to them with that request, that you own the hard copy and want to purchase the right to access the same book as an epub. They may make the same offer, or make a lower one. Worst case, you can still buy from the webstore, best case you get a free download, maybe you get a discount code for the webstore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamondback
Only way to find out is to write or call to ask.
Paper is far superior for many uses and is a 'permanent' product, but a searchable pdf/epub has definite advantages in some cases. If I had to choose one I prefer paper, but both together is a better product.
Okay, here we go... I'm starting with the three-deckers and the two-decker 80s. (As the last two 80s were grown from Ildefonso 74's by splicing in a 10' plug in the QD area, I have elected to "promote" that entire family tree despite Ildefonso being some of the weakest-armed Spanish 74's.)
Note that unlike British/French practice, Spanish measures at "lowest planked deck"--the length of this deck is called "eslora", we're using a length here that includes the stem and stern overhangs beyond that. Typically the Spanish approach to "adding a deck" appears to have been just building up the bulwarks and waist to "bridge" the existing QD and forecastle into a spar-deck. Guns listed here are design/"war load;" in practice the fleet usually had to make do with whatever smaller guns they could get.
THREE-DECKERSWe need a larger sculpt. Purisima Concepcion and Meregildos, despite being two different "design systems," are close enough in size and shape I would be comfortable using either as the other. "These two de facto prototypes (PC/SJ) were followed by eight improved three-deckers (Meregildos) designed to the same general pattern, but modified by Landa...") The problem is the older ships...
Gaztaneta/Autran school
>1732-55 San Felipe one-off - 55.16x15.88m, 30x24#/32x24#/30x12#/22x8#
>spar-deck 1804 conversion of Rayo 80 - 54.61x14.6m, 30x36#/32x18#/34x8#
Potential decoes: San Felipe, Trafalgar Rayo (with grave reservations)
Jorge Juan school
>as-built 1769-95 Santissima Trinidad one-off - 61.3x16.16m, 30x36#/32x24#/32x12#/22x8#
>spar-deck 1782-84 conversions of San Carlos 80's (3x) - 51.13x14.91m, 30x36#/32x18#/18x8#
>full 1801 reconstruction of San Carlos - 58.51x15.79m, 30x24#/32x24#/32x12#/16x8#+4ea 24# & 36# obusier
Potential releases: Santissima Trinidad early, San Carlos latest; (with reservations) mid San Carlos, San Fernando, San Luis
Gautier and Landa schools
>Purisima Concepcion and Meregildos already discussed
80-GUN HEAVY TWO-DECKER SOL'sGaztaneta school
>Rayo & Real Fenix - 52.96x15.37m, 30x36#/32x18#/18x8#
Potential releases: Rayo as built, Real Fenix, HMS Gibraltar
Relevant drawings/models: NMM J2625 Gibraltar
Jorge Juan school
>San Carlos cl as-built (3x)- 51.13x14.91m, 30x24#/32x18#/18x8#
>San Vicente Ferrer cl (2x) - 53.2x13.12m, 30x36#/32x18#/18x8#
Potential releases: San Carlos, San Luis, San Fernando, San Vicente Ferrer, San Nicolas de Bari, HMS San Nicolas
Relevant drawings/models: MNM2975 San Vicente Ferrer
Gautier school: NONE - FG pushed 94-gun spardeckers that were never built
Landa/Retamosa school - Retamosa's Neptuno 80 was a simple stretch of Montanes, a minor tuneup of Landa's Ildefonso 74 so I'm treating the ancestral 74's as under this heading
>Ildefonso 74 (10x) - 52.94x14.49m, 28x24#/30x18#/22x8#
>Montanes one-off 74 - 52.94x14.21m, 28x24#/30x18#/22x8#
>Neptuno 80 (2x) - 55.72x15.04m, 30x36#/32x24#/18x18#
Potential releases: (^=80) 1784-1805 San Ildefonso, 1785-1801 San Antonio, 1788-1819 San Telmo, 1788-1823 San Francisco de Paula, 1789-1803 Europa, 1791-1802 Conquistador, 1790-1808 Soberano, 1790-1801 Intrepido, 1791-1802 Infante Don Pelayo, 1794-1805 Monarca, 1805-16 HMS Ildefonso, 1801-25 HMS San Antonio, 1801 FNS St Antoine, 1802-07 FNS Conquerant, 1801-05 FNS Intrepide, 1802-04 FNS Desaix, 1794-1810 Montanes, ^Neptuno, ^Argonauta
Relevant drawings: NMM J1877 Neptuno
Preliminary thought: If I had the chance to do an Ildefonso sculpt, I would slipstream the two 80's onto it and juice their stats accordingly. We have potential for one British and two French reflag packs.
Still working on the 74's, will post them when ready, then the small SOL's, then the frigates and smaller--frigates get nasty, as there were several cases of inter-related designs differing in longer or shorter upperworks.
68-74-GUN (nom 70) MEDIUM TWO-DECKER SOL'sGaztaneta/Autran school
>1743 Reina cl (2x) - 50.15x14.07m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1743 San Felipe one-off - 51.71x14.49m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1746 Africa cl (3x) - 51.71x14.49m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1750 Princesa cl (3x imp Africa) - 51.76x15.325m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
Potential releases: 1743-62 Reina, 1743-50 Invencible, 1762-72 HMS Reyna, 1743-62 San Felipe, 1746-48 Africa, 1746-50 Vencedor, 1747-62 Tigre, 1762-84 HMS Tiger, 1750-80 Princesa, 1750-63 Infante, 1750-97 Galicia, 1780-84 HMS Princessa, 1763-75 HMS Infanta
Pack potential summary: 5 Spanish, 2 British
Relevant drawings: NMM J3953 Infanta
Jorge Juan school
>Mullan 1752 Africa one-off - 50.71x13.93m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
>Mullan 1754 Firme cl (2x; imp Africa)
Potential releases: 1752-1809 Africa, 1754-1805 Firme, 1754-93 Aquiles (what happened to Aquiles upon reaching Portsmouth '93?)
>Rooth 1753 Eolo cl (3x) - 51.59x13.09m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
>Rooth 1754 Mod Eolo cl (9x) - 51.54x13.09m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
>Rooth 1756 Triunfante cl (4x) - 51.54x13.11m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
>Rooth 1759 Principe cl (2x) - 48.45x14.37m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
Potential releases: 1753-64 Eolo, 1753-1808 Oriente, 1754-94 Magnanimo, 1754-62 Aquilon, 1754-62 Neptuno, 1754-97 Gallardo, 1754-90 Brillante, 1754-1806/1808-10 Vencedor, 1755-1818 Glorioso, 1755-62 Soberano, 1755-68 Hector, 1762-70 HMS Moro, 1762-70 HMS Soverano, 1806-08 FNS Argonaute, 1756-95 Triunfante, 1756-84 Dichoso, 1756-80 Monarca, 1756-80 Diligente, 1780-91 HMS Monarca, 1780-84 HMS Diligent, 1759-76 Principe, 1760-76 Victorioso, 1776-? SP priv ex-Principe
>Howell 1753 Serio cl (6x) - 51.26x14.07m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
Potential releases: 1753-1805 Serio, 1754-79 Poderoso, 1754-64 Soberbio, 1754-97 Arrogante, 1754-61 Hercules, 1755-61 Contento
Relevant drawings: NMM J3259 Monarca
>Bryant 1754 Terrible cl (2x) - 49.55x12.54m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
>Bryant 1764 Velasco cl (3x) - 51.69x13.05m, 28x24#/30x18#/10x8#
>1769 San Francisco de Paula l (2x) - 53.43x14.35m, 28x24#/30x18#/16x8#
>1768 San Isidro cl (2x) - 53.29x14.37m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1771 San Rafael one-off - 54.29x14.17m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1776 San Damaso one-off - 53.29x14.58m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
Potential releases: 1754-1811 Terrible, 1754-1801 Atlante/1808-17 Atlas, 1801-08 FNS Atlas, 1764-1801 Velasco, 1765-1801 San Genaro, 1766-1803 Santa Isabel, 1801-? FNS St Genard/Ulysse, 1769-83 San Francisco de Paula, 1769-80 San Jose, 1768-97 San Isidro, 1768-80 San Julian, 1797-? HMS ex-San Isidro, 1771-1805 San Rafael, 1805-? HMS ex-San Rafael, 1776-97 San Damaso, 1797-? HMS San Damaso
Aggregated pack potential summary: 15 Spanish, 3 British, 1 French (one odd-man-out left each flag)
Relevant drawings/models: MNM5779 Velasco, NMM J3306 San Damaso
Gautier school
>1766 San Juan Nepomuceno cl (6x) - 54.71x14.3m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1770 San Pedro Apostol cl (3x) - 54.61x14.3m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1771 San Joaquin cl (4x) - 54.61x14.3m, 28x24#/30x18#/12x8#
>1774 San Miguel one-off - 53.29x13.75m, 28x24#/30x18#/16x8#
>1775 San Eugenio one-off - 55.26x14.95m, 30x24#/32x18#/18x8#
>1782 San Fermin cl (2x) - 53.08x14.63m, 28x24#/30x18#/18x8#
>1783 Bahama one-off - 52.99x14.21m, 28x24#/30x18#/16x8#
Potential releases: 1766-1805 San Juan Nepomuceno, 1766-97 San Pascual Bailon, 1767-1805 San Francisco de Asis, 1768 San Lorenzo, 1768-1805 San Agustin, 1805-16 HMS San Juan, 1770-1804 San Pedro Apostol, 1769-1855 San Pablo, 1772-1808 San Gabriel, 1771-1817 San Joaquin, 1772 San Juan Bautista, 1773 Angel de la Guarda, 1779-1828 San Justo, 1774-83 San Miguel, 1783-91 HMS San Miguel, 1775-1804 San Eugenio, 1782-1808 San Fermin, 1783-99 San Sebastian, 1799-1807 FNS Alliance, Bahama, HMS Bahama
Pack potential summary: 8 Spanish, 1 British (odd-men-out 1 each Spanish/British/French)
Relevant drawings/models: NMM J2879 San Miguel, NMM J2634 Bahama
RESEARCHER NOTES: As Spanish length measurement practice differs from British, I am going to use the ships we do have both measurements for as "para-type specimens" for comparison. Bahama measure 52.99m Spanish or 53.34 English based on different decks the measurement is along, this makes a ratio of about 1.007 to multiply by for Standard English LGD. San Juan Nepomuceno is 55.17m LGD, a ratio of 1.008. So we should figure this group to be about 0.7 to 0.8% longer than Spanish stated lengths. This means the Ares model of Bahama, measured around the lower gunports, should have been about 53mm long excluding the cutwater, sternpost and overhang. 5mm short (IIRC the model is ~47-48mm LGD) for the "baby" of the family means generally unacceptable--it needs to be about 13% larger. However, they ARE about the right size for Francisco Gautier's five 64-gunners!
Thanks for all this extra work DB.
I hope that it will be noted by Ares and that some new sculpts will eventually emerge from it.
Rob.
Do I understand correctly that the Spanish 74 miniatures could be used to represent 64's in your opinion, DB? If so, I may just buy one or two.
In my opinion yes--there are also a few VERY archaic 74's that were of similar size, but they were virtually extinct before the Seven Years War and insufficient "visual reference" (be it blueprints or contemporary models) exists for me to really be comfortable passing 1770s design off as a 1730s-40s vintage ship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobbs
The ships I THINK we can use SGN112 for are:
1775-1810 San Ramon (49.32x13.10m, 26x24#/28x12#/12x8#)
1781-1831 San Julian (47.02x12.82m, 24x24#/26x12#/8x8#)
1780-1810 Castilla (47.22x12.62m, 24x24#/26x12#/8x8#)
Santo Domingo cl (47.02x12.82m, 26x24#/28x12#/6x8#)
--1781-1807 Santo Domingo
--1781-94 San Felipe Apostol
--1794-95 HDMS Overijssel
--1795-1810 HMS Overyssel
IF we extend this to include Landa's San Fulgencios (50.43x13.79m, 26x24#/28x18#/12x8#), this adds four more (Asia was a modified version by Retamosa that also added 2 more 8pdr's).
--1787-1814 San Fulgencio
--1787-1814 San Leandro
--1788-1815 San Pedro de Alcantara
--1789-1830 Asia
So, if you've already done two-of-everything you can repurpose the four Spanish packs, have reason to buy five more, and can save one of the British packs and all you have to write-off is the second British unless you want to reflag and repaint it as Dutch for the one year that they had one of these ships until the Royal Navy mugged them for it.
Aside: Can anybody suggest a decent freeware I can use to create bargraphs? When I assembled the original Complete Content List, OpenOffice had a feature that let me use bargraphs to create a timeline of each released ship's comparative service lives but either it was deleted or I've forgotten how.
I will also do so Dobbs, as my Spanish are the only modest sized Fleet that I own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobbs
Rob.
Thanks for the research DB. I'm still waiting for the book, grrrrr.
If I had stuck with my Amazon order, I would be too. You shoulda checked out Pen & Sword's US Memorial Day sale... :) Preliminary critique, I would've liked more blueprints but I can understand the possibility that plans from the Gaztaneta-Autran and Jorge Juan eras in the first half of the 1700s may not have weathered the storms of time and entropy.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackAubrey1805
At least it's still cheap thanks to pre-ordering and a price guarantee i only have EUR 27.60 for the hardcover. Today it would cost EUR 54...
It's on the way... yay.
Yes! A very good price indeed Uwe.
Rob.
Some updates, as I just sent to Rob at Ares:
1. The San Vicente Ferrer group of 80's are very close structurally and sizewise the the "Juan System" 74' designed by Eduardo Bryant--only five feet (one port) longer, and less difference than the group of 64's we're going to be discussing next.
2. Bahama turns out to be a hybrid - scantlings are Gautier System, the "shell" of hull planks around them is basically a rescale of 1765 San Genaro, one of Eduardo Bryant's Velascos (and thus "smaller sister" to the San Vicente Ferrers). Based on this and knowing how engineers prefer scale-up/down over "clean sheet" every time, I would suggest nerfing SGN112's Gunnery and buffing its maneuver in line with a typical 64 and using the sculpt for:
1759 Astuto
1761 San Genaro class: 1761 San Genaro, 1761 San Antonio, 1763 HMS San Antonio (Genaro taken as prize alongside her sister but lost in UK waters enroute from Havana)
1766 America one-off
1771 San Pedro de Alcantara one-off
Yes, Bryant built TWO San Genaros! The two SG-class 64's were commissioned right into Ordinary and never armed before the Siege of Havana. 50.53m America is a good 4m longer than 46.3m Astuto, actually around British Common 74 size. In order to make this a viable roster, I reluctantly suggested engaging in a What-If puttin San Genaro under UK flag. (Ironically, the very-thing I threw a screaming hissy-fit about scuttling Actionnaire under UK flag as an Artesien card...)
Nice bit of work DB. I'm sure a few sales could be made there.
Rob.
Combine that with the 49m-ish smalle and older 74's, and the sculpt may be salvageable. Meregildos is a total loss though.
I sure would like a Meregildos if Ares made one to scale with the other 1st rates. I like the Ares miniatures best over the 3D printed ones. The 3D ones are great, but maybe too great for gameplay, and I want ships to put on a table and be handled.
Could someone please post some pictures of these Spanish 74's? I've been contemplating picking up a British flagged one, but would love to see some closeups before I commit.
Dobbs, I think Henry Turner tried to make some of his designs have "Ares Style" versions. If you remember the ones I was working on a few years ago, those were from that.
I like what Henry did, and may pursue them more in the future, but my interest at the moment is the Ares Spanish 74. I'm interested in what the galleries look like and overall pictures compared to the Bellona class models.