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RichardPF
04-07-2013, 13:58
I have modeled a number of ships with 3D Modeling software before, but never one that was to be produced on a 3D Printer at this scale and as a waterline model.
After trying to adapt some of my previous efforts, I decided that it would be better to build one from the ground up.

The first step was to build a base.

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Initial size was set at 50mm by 75mm based on the ship/movement card sizes.
I guestimated a height at 7mm

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With nothing to go on for the center pin hole size, I set the radius at 2.5 mm.
This cylinder will be used as a boolean cutter.

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Base with boolean cut hole.
Hole is centered on the base.

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I added 2 mm posts at the front and back for movement card arrow alignment.


On Keith's preview photos, I saw an edge lip arount the outside top edge.
My guess is that the card sits down in the slight recess created in the top surface.
That meant extruding the slight ridge and slightly enlarging the base so that the dimensions inside the ridge were 50mm x 75mm.
I'm guessing at all this ofcourse, but things like this can be built and modified very quickly.

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Base with top surface inset visible.

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Guessing at a reasonable underside shape I came up with this.
Also more visible from this image is the slight taper than I added to the sides of the base.

Sea Gull
04-07-2013, 14:32
Looking forward to seeing how this progresses Bruce. I've enjoyed reading all your posts regarding the 3D printer and I'm looking forward to seeing something take shape in the design phase and become a physical object.

One question, probably a stupid one, what is a boolean cutter? Boolean is generally true or false (programming background), but I'm having difficulty seeing where it fits with something called a cutter. Is this what you use to make the hole? If so, again why the name boolean cutter?

Cheers
Chris

RichardPF
04-07-2013, 14:38
So here starts the Surprise.

The first question I needed to answer was: Rose or L'Unité?

I have been a reader of WoodenBoat magazine for decades.
The work of Phil Bolger has been featured often there and I am a big fan of that work.
His eclectic designs are wonderful.
In addition, the former Rose, perhaps Bolger's most famous creation, is docked about 300 miles west of me so would be a great reason for a documentation trip to San Diego.

That all having been said, I chose instead to base my model on the French corvette that actually became HMS Surprise.

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Line drawings for the ship are amazingly available.
While I have copies of the drawings in reference books,
they are also easy to find on the web.
My 2D graphics program of choice is Xara.
I believe that this software is more well known in the UK than the US.
(I am not a big fan of Adobe products.)


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After importing the drawing.
I duplicated and cropped it.
Set out borders to equalize the image dimensions to aid alignment in the 3D Modeling software plus added centerlines and waterlines.


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Once imported, the image alignment was checked and adjusted in the perspective view.


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Rather than building up the shape from keel, frames, and planking as is my normal process, I decided to take a more solid modeling approach here.
Subdivisions were added to track the hull lines from the drawings.
The 3D software has an X Ray mode that allows the background reference images to be seen through the object.


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My first pass was to match the lines from the top view.
This is completely the opposite of my usual approach which only uses the top view lines as a double check reference.


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Continuing my reverse order mode, I next went to the side view.
This was primarily to rough in the bow and stern profiles.


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From here, I went into a more sculpting mode.
With this approach, the rib lines that are usually my primary reference were almost completely ignored.
The hull surface was faired and a crown was added to the deck.
My references are mixed as to the existance of a raised quarterdeck on the former L'Unité, though one is present on the Rose.


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Additional edges were added in strategic positions to frame the gunport openings.


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The gunports were created as extrusions into the hull.
If you look closely, you will see a second edge just inside the corners of the opening to reinforce the idea that this is a sharp cornered opening.

RichardPF
04-07-2013, 14:58
Looking forward to seeing how this progresses Bruce. I've enjoyed reading all your posts regarding the 3D printer and I'm looking forward to seeing something take shape in the design phase and become a physical object.

One question, probably a stupid one, what is a boolean cutter? Boolean is generally true or false (programming background), but I'm having difficulty seeing where it fits with something called a cutter. Is this what you use to make the hole? If so, again why the name boolean cutter?

Cheers
Chris

Sorry to drift off into industry jargon there.

Once upon a time in the dark ages of 3D modeling, computers could not handle creating objects with the enormous number of vertices and polygons that they do today.
The standard method of modeling an object was to create them from meshes of mathematical equation curves woven together like nets.

This technique was not very flexible and did not allow for the creation of very complex objects but was managable by the computers of the day (were talking the ancient computer days of the 80's and early 90's here).
The way to create a more complex object was to create a second object that would then be added to or subtracted from the first object (a third possible operation was to just retain the intersection of the two objects).

These object combination processes were known as Boolean Operations.

Over the years, these mathematical splines have largely (but not completely) been supplanted by giant swarms of individual vertices that form the thousands (or millions) of polygons of a modern 3D modeled object.
The splines and their implementation of boolean operations are now mostly part of computer history.
Such is the nature of Moore's Law and computer power.

The boolean operations themselves, however, have still survived into the present day.

The modeling techniques for hard sided objects that might be machined in the realm of physical objects often include a number of boolean operations as the most direct way to duplicate those machined shapes.

Coog
04-07-2013, 16:58
Excellent choice using L'Unité instead of Rose.

Sea Gull
04-08-2013, 01:25
Thanks for the explanation Bruce.

Beowulf03809
04-08-2013, 10:50
It is flippin' impressive to watch a 3d designer at work. Thank you SO much for posting such an enjoyable write-up so far and please keep it going!
:rum:

RichardPF
04-08-2013, 19:13
Had a bit of time today so added some stern decoration, gun deck guns, capstain, and a few other details.

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This is kind of shaping up as an "only add those details that will reproduce and be visible at this scale" kind of deal, so I may be closer to first plastic than I think.
There will likely be a few iterations/generations of prototypes while I explore those limitations.

I intend to do this as a waterline type model, but I modeled the entire hull to try to keep the lines as true and fair as possible. :minis:

RichardPF
04-08-2013, 19:16
It is flippin' impressive to watch a 3d designer at work. Thank you SO much for posting such an enjoyable write-up so far and please keep it going!
:rum:

THANKS!

I'm having a great deal of fun with these projects.

RichardPF
04-08-2013, 19:47
After looking at the image I posted a bit earlier, I wanted to make one more observation about the modeling of an object like this in answer to and anticipation of a question that might come up.

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A wooden ship is obviously a manufactured thing.
The modeling of it is in many ways, however, a lot like the modeling of an organic object like a person.
This is especially true of the hull.


Pretty much all of the surfaces are curved.
Most of these curves are not simple primitives.
It has bilateral symmetry (left and right sides mirror each other)

As you model an organic or organic like shape, the main trick to master is to keep the geometry as light as possible.
(there I go with industry jargon again)

Keeping the geometry light means including as few polygons, polygon edges, and polygon corner vertices as possible as you go.
This is done so that changes can be made to the shape without having to move (and keep fair) any more geometry than is absolutely necessary.

The problem with this is that polygons are flat and the polygon edges are straight.
Making an object that is basically built out of flat tiles look organic and smooth requires lots of tiny polygons.
That leaves us with a contradiction: Fewer polygons means better model building but more polygons means smoother (better) finished models.

Here's how that contradiction is resolved:
The object is modeled with as few polygons as possible (as light as possible) to achieve the shape you want.
Once you are completely happy with the shape, the polygons are split by adding extra edges running through them.
Where curves are tight, more edges are added. Where an object profile may look faceted (like around the stern decoration) more edges are added.
These edges are then faired.
Sometimes the software helps with this fairing, but often it must be done by hand.
Yes it can be tedious.

The lower, more curved part of the hull will not be present in the finished model so for this model no time need be wasted there.
The stern and a few other places are a different story. They will be included in the finished 3D model so will need to be addressed before this project is ready for the first test print.

Sea Gull
04-09-2013, 02:51
3D Modelling For Dummies. :thanks:

not only am I enjoying the realisation of your creations, but I'm also learning something at the same time. :hatsoff::salute:

Naharaht
04-16-2013, 17:29
It is interesting to see how you are developing this project.

RichardPF
04-20-2013, 14:52
While I figure out just how (and how much) to modify the fort model for the next iteration, I thought I would push this project along a bit.

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I added a bit more stern detail including a blank nameplate.
I did not spend any more time fairing the wetted surface section of the hull as this is to be a waterline model.

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View of the included deck detail.
When L'Unite was refitted as HMS Surprise, the long guns other than the bow chasers were replaced with carronaides.
I also included the wheel, capstain, a skylight, and a few other details.
The mast steps are basically just round holes where the masts will be positioned.

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From this angle you can see the bow shaser long guns.
The step for the jib is actually a square tab onto which a keyway in the jib will sit.
I did include a slight quarterdeck break.
My documentation was mixed on this.
In the end, I just asked myself if I was building this ship would I have added one.
For the additional strength it provides my answer was yes.

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Carronaides are to my eye nowhere near as elegant as long guns, and at this scale this is about the resolution of what might be seen.
The lack of underside detail is a nod to what can be done in a 3D Printing operation and what would be reasonably possible should this model wind up as a resin/pewter casting.
Many of the details of these models are just extended out from the original surface. A few, like these guns are modeled as separate objects and then spliced to the main structure.

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Hull lopped off at the waterline.
One of the great things about virtual modeling is that you can save versions at any stage along the way.
This alleviates the "white knuckle" issue of making major changes to a physical model.

4204
I kind of punted on the whole pin in the ship or the base question.
I have placed holes in both the base and the ship and will print the pin as a separate object.
Not including the pin as an integral part of the ship will make it a good bit easier to 3D Print and, if necessary, cast.

4205
X Ray side view of the hull showing the positioning of the mast step and ship to base pin holes.


So, the hull of HMS Surprise is modeled and ready for the next step on the path from virtual to physical.
If you have seen the last fort installments, you have guessed that this means checking for manifold geometry, tesselation, and file format change from .fbx to .stl.

Then it will be off to the printer software!

RichardPF
04-20-2013, 15:47
File has now been checked updated and tessellated.
Next we use the Cube software to build the print file.

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Compared to the fort, the ship hull is tiny!

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I am going to create both a strong build style file and a solid build style file

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The software estimates the strong style build at only 14 minutes!
(as compared to the 90 min for the chess rook and 2 hours 20 minutes for the fort!)

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The software estimates the solid style build at only 16 minutes.

The short build times are, of course, indicative of how comparatively tiny the model is.
I am a bit nervous to see how the printer holds the detail.

Printing report should be posted soon!

7eat51
04-20-2013, 18:50
Bruce, this is awesome. Thanks for bringing us into the behind-the-scenes activities. You truly are a teacher. :hats off:

Best wishes on the build. :thumbsup:

RichardPF
04-21-2013, 23:42
So I have done a first pass printing of the hull of the Surprise.

As I had feared, this 3D printer does not have the resolution to get the results for which I was hoping.

Below are the results with what are likely a couple of very familiar objects to judge scale and detail resolution.

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Close, but no guacamole.

So where to now (St. Peter?)

The 3D printers at the next level up have about twice the linear resolution (.1mm vs .2mm) and cost between $2500 and $4500.
Because these are 3D objects, that difference is actually more than it might seem from that spec:
(.2 x .2 x .2 = .008 vs .1 x .1 x .1 = .001), but it may still not be enough.
It would be a bit dissapointing to get one of that class of machines and find it was lacking.

The printers at the level beyond that get you into a different technology (Selective Laser Sintering - SLS) and start at between $10,000 and $20,000 today.
This is the type of technology often used by the printing services.
I'd like to let Moore's Law take things a few more laps before I take a serious look at one of these machines.

Just as with the fort, I believe that my next step will be to go back and refine the model a bit, model the sails and spars, and after another test print on this printer to make sure that the geometry is in order send everything off to a printing service or two and see what their machines can do.

The good news is that the ships (other than the bases, actually) have a very small volume of material so the cost from the printing services should not be that painful.

And the Kaizen goes on...

7eat51
04-22-2013, 00:22
And the Kaizen goes on…

It is a wonderful and impressive start. Keep going Bruce. I am sure your hansei will be sufficient to figure this out. :thumbsup:

Coog
04-22-2013, 00:31
Still doesn't look bad. I've seen worse metal castings. I think once you got some paint on her along with some GHQ sails and a boat, she wouldn't look bad. No need to model sails since they could be obtained elsewhere. It the hulls that are needed.

Berthier
04-22-2013, 00:49
That's pretty damn impressive Bruce, from nothing through design and modification to a recognizable ship is quite an achievement. If you're not happy with the result she might make an nice fire ship or hulk, or even a wreck marker.

If we wait another twelve months no doubt you are correct the cost of the printers will drop and the quality will improve. With the hardest part done, the design, you could always get a third party to print on a top end machine to see how good the software modelling really is now and then wait to pump out lots of them later.

RichardPF
04-22-2013, 02:25
And the Kaizen goes on…

It is a wonderful and impressive start. Keep going Bruce. I am sure your hansei will be sufficient to figure this out. :thumbsup:


Still doesn't look bad. I've seen worse metal castings. I think once you got some paint on her along with some GHQ sails and a boat, she wouldn't look bad. No need to model sails since they could be obtained elsewhere. It the hulls that are needed.


That's pretty damn impressive Bruce, from nothing through design and modification to a recognizable ship is quite an achievement. If you're not happy with the result she might make an nice fire ship or hulk, or even a wreck marker.

If we wait another twelve months no doubt you are correct the cost of the printers will drop and the quality will improve. With the hardest part done, the design, you could always get a third party to print on a top end machine to see how good the software modelling really is now and then wait to pump out lots of them later.

Thanks everyone for the kind words.

I am a bit discouraged that the first pass was not up to the level I would deem necessary to send these out into the world, but I am far from stopped.

I will be sending both the ship hull and the fort model to a printing service bureau.
From what I have read it looks like the turn around time is much faster from Sculpteo than Shapeways so I will probably try them first.

I may also just go ahead and order one of the next tier 3D Printers now.
The Makerbot 2 lead time is down to 2 weeks which makes it very tempting.
Price isn't too bad either.

Berthier
04-22-2013, 03:41
Bruce you might end up with more 3D printers than models :erk:

Coog
04-22-2013, 06:08
3D printers may become like computers, cell phones, and other electronics...every 6 months and something better and cheaper will come out.

RichardPF
04-22-2013, 10:53
Bruce you might end up with more 3D printers than models :erk:


3D printers may become like computers, cell phones, and other electronics...every 6 months and something better and cheaper will come out.

Hopefully it won't come to THAT!
But...

So, I am basically a software developer by profession and work out of my house (AI and Data Mining applications for actuaries and business analysts).
I live about 100 miles from the office.
I can't begin to tell you how many laptops and desktops I have around the place.

No, literally, I can't tell you. My guess is that there are about 10 or 12 of them around the house here and there but that's just a guess!

7eat51
04-22-2013, 12:23
Bruce, I saw a documentary that I think you would appreciate - Jiro Dreams of Sushi http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772925/

It is about an 85 year old sushi maker, who, after 75 years in the trade, is still working at perfecting his craft. At the time of the documentary, he was probably the best in Japan, ergo the world. It will be exciting to see what you will produce.

Sea Gull
04-29-2013, 08:10
Send it to the printing bureau, Shapeways or whomever and see what they can produce with it. It looks good to me so far.:happy:

Skullduggery
04-30-2013, 09:27
Thanks everyone for the kind words.

I am a bit discouraged that the first pass was not up to the level I would deem necessary to send these out into the world, but I am far from stopped.

I will be sending both the ship hull and the fort model to a printing service bureau.
From what I have read it looks like the turn around time is much faster from Sculpteo than Shapeways so I will probably try them first.

I may also just go ahead and order one of the next tier 3D Printers now.
The Makerbot 2 lead time is down to 2 weeks which makes it very tempting.
Price isn't too bad either.

Have you seen this Bruce?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-professional-3d-printer

Coog
04-30-2013, 09:51
Have you seen this Bruce?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-professional-3d-printer

As it was with computers, these printers are going to keep being more common for home use and open up a whole new industry of software designs. Instead of buying a model from Shapeways, you'll buy software and print your own model.

CHolgren
04-30-2013, 11:04
Bruce, yet again another amazing project! I certainly think these would be worthwhile to get on a table and play. My kids would certainly enjoy them.

RichardPF
04-30-2013, 11:11
Have you seen this Bruce?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/formlabs/form-1-an-affordable-professional-3d-printer

Yes I did see that.
There have actually been a few 3D printer projects on KS over the past year or so.
All tend to use this same plastic filament technique as that is the technology that can create the lowest cost devices right now.

There are a number of new players entering the industry and a number of "consolidations" going on as well.
It is a very heady time in the industry and I just wanted to be viewing the ride from the inside.
My next 3D printer will likely be from one of the more established companies, though probably not from 3D Systems again.

My guess is taht it will be either a Makerbot 2 or 2X.

RichardPF
04-30-2013, 11:24
As it was with computers, these printers are going to keep being more common for home use and open up a whole new industry of software designs. Instead of buying a model from Shapeways, you'll buy software and print your own model.

Yes, Moore's Law is in full force in this technology just has it has been in computers for many decades.

I expect that I will be buying a number of these printers over the next years as the technology moves along, but the service bureaus will hold sway with most users at least for now.
They are using machines in the $10,000 to $1,000,000 range.
I am sure that they are aware that the machines that they are using will be functinally obsolete in just a couple of years and are pricing their product to amortize those machine costs accordingly.

The software to create these models is actually following a similar Moore's Law type price path.

The main software package that I use for this work today (and for the last couple of decades) is called Autodesk Maya.
This product has been available in one form or another (and under one name or another) for about 25 years.

A license for this software costs about $4,000 to $5,000 today.
That does sound like quite a bit for a piece of software, but the first version of this software package that I ever bought was in 1991.
At that time, it was known as Alias Animator and sold by a company in Toronto Canada called Alias Research.

The price back then was in the range of $30,000.

BTW: If you look at the very end of the credits of most movies from Pixar, and other leading studios, you will find a credit to Alias Research as the software that they use is a customized version of this same package.

RichardPF
04-30-2013, 11:39
Bruce, yet again another amazing project! I certainly think these would be worthwhile to get on a table and play. My kids would certainly enjoy them.

Certainly it is my hope to help make that happen.
There is quite a bit of coolness factor to this stuff right now, but I want to make sure that anything that I put out there can hold it's own with the best of the state of the art in the current technologies which are injection molding for mass production and Resin/Pewter Casting for limited production.

It may turn out that the best way to do that is through the printing service bureaus but we'll see.
Their prices for most bits seem a bit high to me, and the melted filament technology of the low cost machines will produce an object, even with machine cost amortization included, at a far cheaper price.
The only question is if the quality can be there.

While this development process plays out over the next while, I decided to create and release some paper models that everyone that wanted to could download, print and build for just the costs of the paper and printing and their assembly time.
The first of those is the modular terrain project that I posted my initial work for over this past weekend on the "Hobbies other than AOS" thread.
I expect to have another update on that over the next 24 hours or so, and will probably start a new thread to recap and consolidate the information about that there.

One of my main reasons for starting the paper model project is the costs of shipping any physical object to the EU, or Austrailia, or wherever outside the US.
I confess that I was really not consious of that issue before the whole SGN KS project shipping flap.

7eat51
05-01-2013, 00:50
I have seen some pretty impressive paper models on the Aerodrome. Through the Anchorage, I have become aware of ancient naval warfare paper models. I look forward to what you'll produce, Bruce. I think you can offer a great service this way for folks that cannot afford more traditional minis and landscape, as well as augment collections for those who do collect plastic or metal minis.

Maybe you could run your own KS. We could another adrenaline rush. :happy:

RichardPF
05-01-2013, 01:02
I have seen some pretty impressive paper models on the Aerodrome. Through the Anchorage, I have become aware of ancient naval warfare paper models. I look forward to what you'll produce, Bruce. I think you can offer a great service this way for folks that cannot afford more traditional minis and landscape, as well as augment collections for those who do collect plastic or metal minis.

Maybe you could run your own KS. We could another adrenaline rush. :happy:

Perhaps for something at some point doing a KS project might be nice,
but I do not think that the price that I have in mind for the paper models would lend itself to a KS project.

That price, of course, is El Freebo

7eat51
05-01-2013, 01:29
That price, of course, is El Freebo

What would Uncle Milt say? :wink:

Seriously, well done, Bruce. :hatsoff:

RichardPF
05-01-2013, 04:06
What would Uncle Milt say? :wink:

Seriously, well done, Bruce. :hatsoff:

Yes, it's the whole "Entering a market leading with a zero marginal cost product line" deal...

KeithS
01-21-2014, 19:59
Just been looking at this thread and I notice that the illustrations appear to be corrupted in some way. This may be due to my PC although it appears to be the same on both my PC and iPad, I have also tried both IE and Chrome both of which seem to have the problem. I understand that the site has had some problems with images recently although that seems to refer to images being lost rather than corrupted. Does anyone know what has happened? It is a real shame as this looks to be an interesting thread but it is difficult to follow without the illustrations.

Coog
01-21-2014, 20:01
Just been looking at this thread and I notice that the illustrations appear to be corrupted in some way. This may be due to my PC although it appears to be the same on both my PC and iPad, I have also tried both IE and Chrome both of which seem to have the problem. I understand that the site has had some problems with images recently although that seems to refer to images being lost rather than corrupted. Does anyone know what has happened? It is a real shame as this looks to be an interesting thread but it is difficult to follow without the illustrations.

The site was hacked a while back and although much was able to be restored, the photos posted up to that date were ruined.