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RichardPF
04-06-2013, 20:13
I will be posting progress on my other SGN related 3D Modeling and printing project soon, but I wanted to create a place for site input to this project.
As you may have read, until posted, the subject of that one will be a surprise.

Over the next days I will be building a fortress model with one or more of my 3D modeling packages that will the migrate from virtual to physical by way of my 3D printer.

I am not looking to make an exact duplicate of a specific fort but more a period representative piece.
To this end, here are three design conversation starter fortresses that still exist today for critique as to suitability for design influence.


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Morro Castle - Havana Cuba
I remember seeing this in an old Bob Hope movie and thinking it was quite impressive at the time.
Of the three included in this post it is the largest.
At 1:1000 scale, the largest dimension would be about 7 3/4"



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Castillo Santa Catalina - Cadiz Spain
Rather similar in desing to Morro, but more square yielding a much shorter longest dimension.
At 1:1000 scale, the largest dimension of this structure would be about 4 3/4"



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Drake's Island - Plymouth England
Eastern Coast
Substantially different shape than the others
also the smallest of the three
At 1:1000 scale, the largest dimension of this structure would be about 3 1/2"

The fort might be modeled as just the structure, or almost as easily as the structure sitting on and surrounded by some amount of rocky coastline.
As much as for anything, the longest scale horizontal dimension was included for each to invite thoughts about overall model size.

Diamondback
04-06-2013, 23:25
Is it easier to start big and work down, or the other way?

Personally, I'd start with the most geometrically simple, regardless of size, and then work up. I'd suggest Island and Clifftop fortifications would benefit from some sculpted scenery, beachfront or "low ground" not so much.

RichardPF
04-07-2013, 00:03
Is it easier to start big and work down, or the other way?

Personally, I'd start with the most geometrically simple, regardless of size, and then work up. I'd suggest Island and Clifftop fortifications would benefit from some sculpted scenery, beachfront or "low ground" not so much.

At this scale, tiny details will tend to get lost so keeping features larger makes some sense.
I think the main question is how big across and how tall of a thing do you want sitting on a game surface looking at 2" long/tall ships on a 3" long 2" wide base?

The easiest shape is probably a Martello Tower, but where's the fun in building that?
Really, most any shape is pretty easy to model and as long as there is a slight slope or texture to the surface, the 3D printer will be happy.

For a very quick rule of thumb, 1" = 100" (this is actually 1:1200 scale) so a 100 foot cliff is about an inch tall. Put a 40' fort on top of that and you are at about an inch and a half (or a bit more to accurate scale). That would put the guns at about topgallant height.

Earlier fort designs tended to include bastions. These were protrusions at the corners and sometimes at intervals along long straight walls to afford a better firing angle at those trying to scale the walls.
These are architechturally interesting but not really of that much use on the sea facing side of a fort.
The Drake's Island design is basically anti-bastion.

It is interesting to me that the design of the land facing side of Morro Castle and Castillo Santa Catalina are almost identical.
Sea facing sides are similar as well.

A lighthouse is an interesting and common feature that is pretty easy to add.

David Manley
04-07-2013, 00:31
Don't model Drake's Island "as is" for this project - most of what you can see there was built in the 1850s (that said I know quite a few gamers who would love to see a range of Palmerson Fort models in 1/1200)

Martello towers - not much "fun" (and Rod already does one) but a pretty standard type of defensive position and so worth doing at some point.

Some small 6-8 gun batteries typical of those that lined the coast of Europe (Spain and the French coasts in particular) would be ideal and probably of more use that anything, although a larger fort would be great as a centrepiece. I've run, and participated in, a few long term AoS naval campaigns and we found ourselves involved in actions using these small batteries dozens of times (and typically 3-4 batteries in a game as they were positioned to defend a bay or harbour)

David Manley
04-07-2013, 00:35
Somethng else to possibly think about for the future - Rod based a lot of his building and fort models on Toulon; it might be worth thinking about a similar approach for a different location. La Corunna in Northern Spain has some wonderful coastal and island based castles and fortresses which would not look out of place anywhere in the Iberian peninsula, nor in the Caribbean, possibly Florida (for some of the smaller ones anyway). And you could always sell them via the local tourist authorities as souvenirs (IIRC Forge World used to make some lovely models of Scottish castles which were sold through those castle's gift shops)

7eat51
04-07-2013, 00:59
For a very quick rule of thumb, 1" = 100" (this is actually 1:1200 scale) so a 100 foot cliff is about an inch tall. Put a 40' fort on top of that and you are at about an inch and a half (or a bit more to accurate scale). That would put the guns at about topgallant height.

Are you considering including the cliffs, islands, etc. that go along with given forts, and all as single pieces?

Berthier
04-07-2013, 01:15
http://bip.inescporto.pt/en/96/editorial.html/image_preview
Classic star fort is always a delight, think this one is Goa. Because of the numerous variations on this scattered around the world (S America, West Indies, African and Indian subcontinent coasts, European mainland etc ) any basic 'star' fort would be a wonderful addition.

Devsdoc
04-07-2013, 01:49
Hi Buce,
I think the more you add to the fort the more fun you will have. But the less you do to the fort more it could be use for gaming.
Be safe
Rory

Bligh
04-07-2013, 01:57
I like the look of the Cadiz one. It epitomises my idea of what a lot of the major harbours along the Atlantic coast of Europe would have had.
Strong enough to shelter warships from maurauding liners and mostly seaward facing outer works.
Bligh.

Diamondback
04-07-2013, 02:23
If you go 1/1200, then maybe since Langton seems to have focused on Toulon if you key your efforts on other sites and regions the two lines would complement.

Also, you might look up the Coast Defense Study Group--they might be a helpful resource.

RichardPF
04-07-2013, 03:16
Wow! This is great feedback!

For right now I want to create a first fort project that is something of a size, shape, and design that the folks who regularly participate on this site would think reasonable for use in the game.
If it works out well, we'll see where it all goes from there.

My goal is to have a preliminary model design by this coming Friday and let that percolate for comments for a week or so.
Then fire up the printer and see what comes out.

At this point I am probably leaning towards something that sort of resembles Castillo Santa Catalina, but on a rocky bluff something like Morro Castle.
I took a look at Castillo de San Anton in La Caruņa as a result of comments. It looks quite intriguing as well.
The entire island/peninsula could be modeled and would only be about 7" long at 1:1000 scale, quite doable actually.

Sea Gull
04-07-2013, 03:47
Looking forward to this Bruce.:hatsoff:

Green flash
04-07-2013, 06:06
They all look good, but I would have to pick Morro or Cadiz

Horatio
04-07-2013, 07:13
All very interesting, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Is this just for personal use or are you planning to sell these fortifications?
Don

RichardPF
04-07-2013, 11:24
All very interesting, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Is this just for personal use or are you planning to sell these fortifications?
Don

If I am able to come up with something (or somethings) that are worthwhile, it would be great if there was a way that others could have some of them.
But I don't know that I would want to make a business out of it or anything formal like that.

RichardPF
04-07-2013, 11:39
Castillo de San Anton in Spain

As mentioned earlier, the entire island/peninsula would be about 7" long in 1:1000 scale

This is probably a bit large for me for a first project.
I probably want to build something that is "in the style of" rather than an exact duplicate for the first one at least
so that getting sufficient documentation and modeling exact details does not slow things down too much,
but this is an impressive structure.

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Cmmdre
04-07-2013, 11:43
Worthy fortress to style your project after. Would be fun to try and run past the ramparts.

Bligh
04-07-2013, 12:35
If I am able to come up with something (or somethings) that are worthwhile, it would be great if there was a way that others could have some of them.
But I don't know that I would want to make a business out of it or anything formal like that.

You could always sub contract the work out. One model and a vac forming machine, and you're away.
Bligh.

Sea Gull
04-07-2013, 14:27
You may also consider putting the design on Shapeways once you've proved the concept. Let them print it, send it and deal with all the admin. Allows you to concentrate on the designing aspect.

-Note: I know nothing about how Shapeways works with regards to designs etc. All I know is I see something useful that I like and they print it and send it to me.

7eat51
04-07-2013, 18:19
Bruce, I think it is safe to say that whatever you choose to build, you will have a ready audience here to appreciate, and provide feedback to, your work. Your knowledge and expertise is truly appreciated, and you have brought some real excitement to us.

We eagerly await your creations.

The Barrelman
04-07-2013, 22:50
I can't wait to see (lots of posted pics) what comes out of those wonderful toys (3D printers) to make your games more enjoyable.

RichardPF
04-08-2013, 00:22
Just for grins before I called it a weekend I did a quick block in of Castillo Santa Catalina with topology that would work in the 3D printer.

This is far from a final file, but I thought I would post it.

3330

Bligh
04-08-2013, 02:17
Bruce, I think it is safe to say that whatever you choose to build, you will have a ready audience here to appreciate, and provide feedback to, your work. Your knowledge and expertise is truly appreciated, and you have brought some real excitement to us.

We eagerly await your creations.

Aye to that. Aye!
Bligh.

Bligh
04-08-2013, 02:19
Just for grins before I called it a weekend I did a quick block in of Castillo Santa Catalina with topology that would work in the 3D printer.

This is far from a final file, but I thought I would post it.

3330

Looks simply grand to me Bruce.
Bligh.

Sea Gull
04-08-2013, 03:14
Just for grins before I called it a weekend I did a quick block in of Castillo Santa Catalina with topology that would work in the 3D printer.

This is far from a final file, but I thought I would post it.

3330

Looks great. I'd have that no problems. :happy::hatsoff: If you say it's far from final, I believe you ... but I'm now really curious to see the final version. :dazed::thanks:

Berthier
04-08-2013, 03:23
Bruce that's very impressive, it's a great benefit to all of us to have someone with your skills here.

Skullduggery
04-08-2013, 05:38
You could always sub contract the work out. One model and a vac forming machine, and you're away.
Bligh.

I would love to try that out on my vac formers.

Diamondback
04-08-2013, 17:36
Off to an impressive start! Looking forward to watching it develop...

EEK! ANOTHER one?! LOL

RichardPF
04-09-2013, 12:00
I have added a few more details to the fort model.
As I had mentioned before, building the 3D models for printing is a good bit different than building them for animated video or video games.
The object must be built as a single solid piece.
You can't "cheat" and add detail as a surface image.
When modeling for other uses, bits can also just be left hanging here and there if it suits the object and provides interesting detail.
This modeling style is, for me, a new and interesting problem and challenge.

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I hope to have "first plastic" printed on this by the end of this coming weekend.

Bligh
04-09-2013, 12:26
Looks superb Bruce.
I will get one of those if I can even before the ships come out.
Bligh.

7eat51
04-09-2013, 12:38
Bruce, you are making our mouths water, and are keeping us somewhat occupied as we await the release of SoG.

What is especially nice is seeing this from start to finish. I enjoyed all of the extra discs on the LotR trilogy. This is kind of like that in that we are allowed a peek behind the scenes. Looking forward to this weekend if all goes well for you.

RichardPF
04-10-2013, 07:30
Fort with the next round of changes.

As it goes now, changes will be more in the details and harder to notice without being specifically pointed out.
While I have added a few smaller new structures to the fort model, I am also starting to add details with an eye towards what would make the 3D print work better.

In this update that has primarily involved adding details that break up larger flat horizontal surfaces and minimizing undercuts.
In this context, an undercut is an area of object surface directly above an open space.

To that end, I have closed the gates at each end of the entrance to the fort.
If you look at the previous update, that had created a tunnel through the longest building which would be hard for the 3D printer to deal with without substantial internal supports that would need to be manually removed (and would leave marks without significant amounts of filing and scraping).

I have also not added the openings under the overhangs extending into the central square from the other three buildings facing the square.
These would have been natural and easy additions that would certainly have been added a model destined for other than a 3D printer.
In this model, they appear as solid protrusions.

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There are still a few details to add (such as the guns that are why all this is here), a bit more breaking up of flat horizontal areas with miscellaneous details, and a couple of technical modeling details to make sure that there are no "problem" polygons.

I will probably take this first one to the printer without the addition of any terrain around and under the fort just to keep things a bit less complex for now.

Berthier
04-10-2013, 07:52
How do they 3D print the biplanes etc which have thin struts supporting a long wing? Doesn't this create the issue you have mentioned of not having the supports for the model parts. eg what allows the top wing of the biplane to be printed when all that holds it are the struts?

7eat51
04-10-2013, 08:34
Wonderful stuff Bruce.

Minimizing undercuts makes sense. Why the concern about larger flat horizontal surfaces? Is that due to it being difficult to make them uniform?

Horatio
04-10-2013, 09:12
Looking really impressive, great job.
Don

RichardPF
04-10-2013, 09:53
How do they 3D print the biplanes etc which have thin struts supporting a long wing? Doesn't this create the issue you have mentioned of not having the supports for the model parts. eg what allows the top wing of the biplane to be printed when all that holds it are the struts?

I think that there are a couple of reasons this is possible.
One is that the spans involved are a good bit smaller.
The other is that the planes are probably being printed using a different technology that uses powder and liquid resin rather than plastic filament.
Machines like that have been at a much higher price point and have different limitations, but can do horizontal spans more easily.

RichardPF
04-10-2013, 10:05
Wonderful stuff Bruce.

Minimizing undercuts makes sense. Why the concern about larger flat horizontal surfaces? Is that due to it being difficult to make them uniform?

Essentially yes.

I believe that I mentioned once upon a time that there were three different modes that could be used to create the file to build the part: hollow, solid, and strong.

Using the hollow build method, a horizontal surface that was at any level above the bottom surface would have to be built over empty space.
The way that the melted plastic filament is laid down this would quickly cause problems.

The strong build method creates an internal honeycomb structure to support a raised horizontal surface, but there are still short horizontal spans to be bridged which can lead to surface issues (I may be being overcautious with this concern).

The solid build method solves the problem of spans over empty space, but takes far more time and material and the greater material density can lead to warpage.
(Postings about many builds using the hollow method also indicate that it can have a warping problem).

I'm still just a couple of months into this and am learning something every time I do a print.

Hopefully the fort project will push that learning along at an even faster rate.

RichardPF
04-10-2013, 10:12
Looking really impressive, great job.
Don

THANKS!

And thanks for the time to all who are following this thread!

GreenLaborMike
04-10-2013, 10:40
Excellent stuff. Really really excellent!

Beowulf03809
04-10-2013, 12:30
Really interesting info on the different production options there. Thanks!

Gaz67
04-11-2013, 08:31
Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

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RichardPF
04-11-2013, 23:25
How do they 3D print the biplanes etc which have thin struts supporting a long wing? Doesn't this create the issue you have mentioned of not having the supports for the model parts. eg what allows the top wing of the biplane to be printed when all that holds it are the struts?

There is one other way that the very severe 3D print undercuts can be done.
This method is used in some commercial situations but is time comsuming, expensive, and dangerous.

Some of the 3D printers are able to print with multiple filament spools simultaneously (up to 3 possible).
This can include one spool of PLA type plastic filament and one or more spools of ABS type plastic filament material.

ABS is a more durable material but does not hold fine detail as well.
PLA is able to hold finer detail and, And, AND...

will disolve in some nasty chemicals such as a solution of drain cleaner and water.

In commercial/industrial applications, these chemicals are used in heated ultrasonic tanks to remove PLA support material structures that can then be as elaborate and extensive as necessary to support any shape.
The thing is, these chemicals will also disolve many other materials, like, say human tissue, so must be used with great care.

GreenLaborMike
04-11-2013, 23:31
Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

3454

Incredible. Amazing photograph there, Gaz.

David Manley
04-12-2013, 00:31
Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

I must drop in and see you sometime. We have a test site up your way and I often stop off at Fort George for a wander about before getting the plane back from Inverness :)

Diamondback
04-12-2013, 01:05
There IS a safer way... but it involves a hybrid of stereolithography and traditional techniques. Basically, you SLP a parts kit then manually assemble it by hand.

RichardPF
04-12-2013, 01:54
There IS a safer way... but it involves a hybrid of stereolithography and traditional techniques. Basically, you SLP a parts kit then manually assemble it by hand.

Yes tha's true, but I believe that the original question was about how to create the undercuts seen on some of the available Shapeways objects.

Sea Gull
04-12-2013, 03:53
Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)



Can't be the highlands, it's not raining and the sea is too clean ! :hmmm::happy:

Gaz67
04-12-2013, 10:22
Can't be the highlands, it's not raining

Sir, not only the Highlands, but the Capital of the Highlands, and I'll have you know we do get a certain amount of rain free days per year, I believe our current quota is 3, some years we save them up so we get a full week of sun :beer: and sometimes it snows....



I must drop in and see you sometime

Certainly! give me a shout and we shall see what can be arranged.



Incredible. Amazing photograph there

Brazenly stolen from t'internet :erk:

Google "Fort George Inverness" for more.

Sea Gull
04-13-2013, 10:25
If I remember correctly I was at Fort George doing some filming for a crap film in the 80s. Filmed at the fort beautiful sunny weather in the morning. Went out to the countryside, had some lunch in a marquee, came out for more filming and there was a blizzard. The film unit couldn't get the lighting off the site. That's how I remember Fort George.:hmmm:

RichardPF
04-13-2013, 10:50
Just came across this, really interesting Bruce and looking forward to your updates.

A pic of my local fort, Fort George started 1748 and still in use. I get to deliver mail there now and again.
(and a really good place to watch dolphins and porpoise)

3454

So by my estimation, the longest dimension of the actual fort is a bit over 2000'
which means at 1:1000 scale, the fort model would be just over 2 feet long.

Do you think that people would want a fort model that big in the game or
would they prefer a scaled down version
or perhaps just the bit at the end of the peninsula?

3497

Bligh
04-13-2013, 10:51
Sounds like most of my Re-enactment life Chris, although sometimes you can substitue Hail or rain for the snow.
Bligh.

3500

Skullduggery
04-13-2013, 11:02
So by my estimation, the longest dimension of the actual fort is a bit over 2000'
which means at 1:1000 scale, the fort model would be just over 2 feet long.

Do you think that people would want a fort model that big in the game or
would they prefer a scaled down version
or perhaps just the bit at the end of the peninsula?

3497
As with a lot of war games scale can be an issue. If the fort is more for terrain than it would take up too much table space in most games.

David Manley
04-13-2013, 11:25
A model of the fort 2 feet in length would be awesome, but in the game's ground scale would be about 1.5 to 2 miles long :)

GreenLaborMike
04-13-2013, 11:34
Do you think that people would want a fort model that big in the game or
would they prefer a scaled down version
or perhaps just the bit at the end of the peninsula.

I can see it go either way, but it depends on what kind of scenarios you are most likely to run. If you plan to run scenarios in which the ships will have direct interaction (e.g. attacking the fort), then I think you should go with building just a portion of the fort to preserve the proper scale (maybe 1/2 the fort, such that the model is 12 inches?). If the scenarios you are more likely to run will not have players interacting with it directly, then you can go with a scaled down version to give it the most visual impact. My two cents, at least...

Bligh
04-13-2013, 12:57
It may just be my maths but at 1:1000 I make the whole fort 1.1 feet long. Even so for Ships at sea we only really need the facade facing the sea and a bit of the parade ground to simulate the target unless we are running Bomb Ketches.
Bligh.

RichardPF
04-13-2013, 13:45
It may just be my maths but at 1:1000 I make the whole fort 1.1 feet long. Even so for Ships at sea we only really need the facade facing the sea and a bit of the parade ground to simulate the target unless we are running Bomb Ketches.
Bligh.

3524

Here's how I measured:
I took a screen shot of the Google Satellite map and imported it to a graphics package.
The red rectangle I created above the key was 120 pixels long.
The one I created along the long axis of the fort was 500 pixels long.
That made the fort a bit over 4 times the key.
And the key was 500 feet.

Gaz67
04-14-2013, 06:20
http://maps.nls.uk/military/view/?id=407

Gives a nice old map of the fort, about 2000 feet is roughly correct for the length. If you are using Google to look at it, zoom out to 2000 ft, you can see Chanonry point which shows how well placed the fort is.

This is my favorite plan, it shows how far the dastardly English would displace thousands (okay, 1 family to be honest!) to place their fort. The RED oblong in the location of a Fisherman's house.

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Berthier
04-14-2013, 06:52
http://maps.nls.uk/military/view/?id=407

Gives a nice old map of the fort, about 2000 feet is roughly correct for the length. If you are using Google to look at it, zoom out to 2000 ft, you can see Chanonry point which shows how well placed the fort is.

This is my favorite plan, it shows how far the dastardly English would displace thousands (okay, 1 family to be honest!) to place their fort. The RED oblong in the location of a Fisherman's house.



I think modern day property developers are just as ruthless:wink:

David Manley
04-14-2013, 07:09
This is my favorite plan, it shows how far the dastardly English would displace thousands (okay, 1 family to be honest!) to place their fort. The RED oblong in the location of a Fisherman's house.]

No doubt the canny Scot sold his house for a considerable profit :)

Gaz67
04-14-2013, 07:15
A little about the locals...

Aredersier

Many families in the village once depended on the sea to earn a living. The Reverend John Mathieson, a Victorian minister, wrote a history of the parish that included some interesting observations about the fishers…

….a class of people who possess many habits and many superstitious observations quite peculiar to themselves. They never intermarry out of their own tribes, and there is an obvious reason for this on the part of the young men, as no other females would undertake the laborious out-of-door occupations to which their wives are subjected. They carry in creels on their back to great distances immense loads of fish: and they carry their husbands to and from their boats, when from the state of the tide, they cannot get in or out dry-shod. This latter duty influences the fashion of the costume of the females, which, as regards their lower garment, is of peculiar brevity. The women make the nets and bait the lines, and the fishermen when not employed on the vastly deep, do little else than chew tobacco.

Sea Gull
04-14-2013, 07:42
A little about the locals...

Aredersier

Many families in the village once depended on the sea to earn a living. The Reverend John Mathieson, a Victorian minister, wrote a history of the parish that included some interesting observations about the fishers…

….a class of people who possess many habits and many superstitious observations quite peculiar to themselves. They never intermarry out of their own tribes, and there is an obvious reason for this on the part of the young men, as no other females would undertake the laborious out-of-door occupations to which their wives are subjected. They carry in creels on their back to great distances immense loads of fish: and they carry their husbands to and from their boats, when from the state of the tide, they cannot get in or out dry-shod. This latter duty influences the fashion of the costume of the females, which, as regards their lower garment, is of peculiar brevity. The women make the nets and bait the lines, and the fishermen when not employed on the vastly deep, do little else than chew tobacco.

Has much changed since then? :happy:

Gaz67
04-14-2013, 07:49
Well Tobacco is more socially frowned upon these days....

7eat51
04-14-2013, 07:59
So by my estimation, the longest dimension of the actual fort is a bit over 2000'
which means at 1:1000 scale, the fort model would be just over 2 feet long.

Do you think that people would want a fort model that big in the game or
would they prefer a scaled down version
or perhaps just the bit at the end of the peninsula?


Ask Clipper on WoG. He is making scaled Zeps at 1/144 scale, and has just done an aircraft carrier. I think it would ultimately depend upon price and shipping costs from a sales perspective. As you know, quantity demanded is based on price. I doubt 2' would deter folks in terms of taking such forts to conventions, etc., unless weight became an issue.

As for whether it is best to do a whole fort or partial, it depends upon how much folks want shore scenarios to turn into land-based gaming. I would love whole forts from an aesthetical and collector's perspective. I imagine for many, though, it would be overkill.

RichardPF
04-14-2013, 08:03
First test model of Castillo Santa Catalina just off the 3D printer.
Report with pictures to follow this evening.
Good and bad news; none of it too bad.

While it was printing,
I was rereading Hornblower and the Hotspur and in particular the long distance battle with Felicity and the mention of the fort at Cape St. Vincent in Portugal.

OK it's Portugal, but still...

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Size looks pretty good for the scale of the game.

Bligh
04-14-2013, 08:10
Has much changed since then? :happy:

As some of my friends are Scots, I could not possibly comment. besides which they all have Basket hilt swords, and Dirks.
Bligh.

Sea Gull
04-14-2013, 08:18
As some of my friends are Scots, I could not possibly comment. besides which they all have Basket hilt swords, and Dirks.
Bligh.

So, basically no then. :sly:

RichardPF
04-14-2013, 08:19
Ask Clipper on WoG. He is making scaled Zeps at 1/144 scale, and has just done an aircraft carrier. I think it would ultimately depend upon price and shipping costs from a sales perspective. As you know, quantity demanded is based on price. I doubt 2' would deter folks in terms of taking such forts to conventions, etc., unless weight became an issue.

As for whether it is best to do a whole fort or partial, it depends upon how much folks want shore scenarios to turn into land-based gaming. I would love whole forts from an aesthetical and collector's perspective. I imagine for many, though, it would be overkill.

I think I saw the photo with about a dozen of the Zeppelins filling what looked to be his dining room table.

That post didn't say what he was doing with them.
IIRC they were basically hand made out of blocks of dense foam with added details.
I think that I remember a picture of a jig that he was using to build them.
My guess was that he used a hot wire technique with the jig to cut the basic shape.
I shouild probably know a lot more about it than I do.

I know that Skytrex (now Red Eagle) sells something similar in kit form that is about 3 1/2 feet long and goes for something in the neighhborhood of $300.

That does hint at the whole discussion of size and cost that will be part of my update on the fort model this evening.
A couple of directions that this could go.

Bligh
04-14-2013, 09:19
So, basically no then. :sly:

By Neptunes beard! I do believe I've been Gulled.
Bligh.

7eat51
04-14-2013, 09:37
I think I saw the photo with about a dozen of the Zeppelins filling what looked to be his dining room table.

That post didn't say what he was doing with them.
IIRC they were basically hand made out of blocks of dense foam with added details.
I think that I remember a picture of a jig that he was using to build them.
My guess was that he used a hot wire technique with the jig to cut the basic shape.
I shouild probably know a lot more about it than I do.

I know that Skytrex (now Red Eagle) sells something similar in kit form that is about 3 1/2 feet long and goes for something in the neighhborhood of $300.

That does hint at the whole discussion of size and cost that will be part of my update on the fort model this evening.
A couple of directions that this could go.

Many of those Zeps were in a smaller scale. The 1/144 is significantly larger - and I have one coming. :happy:

I think once you give details as to price and size, you'll get a better idea what folks truly demand as opposed to want. One thing about smaller items is their versatility in terms of placement/position on a table.

Gaz67
04-14-2013, 15:07
I think once you give details as to price and size

And weight, which will impact shipping costs.

At the moment I'm thinking "2 ft isn't that big, not really, dag nab it I'll have 2""

even though I'm pretty much stoney broke (bought my first ever New car last month, and New New NOT just new to me, 6 miles on the clock when I got it) so I can't afford anything.....

RichardPF
04-19-2013, 16:31
So now that the KS buzz has subsided a bit I figured it was time to post the next installment or two of this saga.

4151
Here is the fort modeled to the level of detail I deemed reasonable for the first 3D print test.
But before it goes to print, there are a couple of things that need to be checked...

4152
3D objects for film, TV and video games have a lot less picky requirements than one that will be 3D printed.
An object destined for printing needs to have a manifold surface.
There are all kinds of fancy math definitions to this, but basically it means something that could exist in the world of 3D objects that have physical volume.
Above is an example of an object that DOES NOT have a manifold surface.

4153
Here is that same example object after it has been edited to have a manifold surface.
This could now actually exist in the real world.
Why you might want this particular object to exist is a completely different deal...

4154
Once you are sure the geometry defines an object that can exist in the real world,
the last step that you want to do before sending it off to the printing software is divide all of the polygons up to be triangles. This process is known as tessellation.
The main reason for this is that a polygon that is defined by more than three vertices may not have all vertices along a single plane (i.e. not create a flat polygon).
This can lead to ambiguities when the printer software builds the file for printing.
In the image above, all polygons are three sided.

4155
The model is then exported from the modeling software and imported to the printer software.
There was an intermediate step where I translated the file format between the previous two steps but there was really nothing to see there.
The file format coming out of this modeling software is .fbx the file format required for import to the printer software is .stl.
There are many software utilities that can do this format translation.

4156
In the printer software, the scale is verified and the print style and options are selected.

4157
The build file for the printer is then created and saved.
The system calculates how much time the build will take.

Skullduggery
04-19-2013, 16:49
I can't wait to see the results

RichardPF
04-19-2013, 17:05
Here it finally is.
The first test of an original object to see where we are in the process.

4158
I purchased three more spools of filament that I thought might be more appropriate for this type of modeling.
Silver grey, Tan, and Green.
This was also a non-neon green so I was interested to see if it would have the same problems as the neon green did.

4159
The standard rook model built without problem using this new shade of green.
Here you can see the difference in shade between the two materials.

4160
I decided to do the first fort test using the silver grey.
This filament has a bit of metallic to it.
Not necessarily good for simulating block and stone but it does make the filament tend to show imperfections more clearly.
First "lap" around the perimeter base completed...

4161
Base/foundation complete and the honeycomb structure of the Strong building style starts to take shape.
This structure is the best to prevent warping, but has an issue reproducing elevated flat surfaces of which the model does have a few.

4162
Slanted fort walls and entry bridge with rail details now visible.
Internal structure starting to be defined.

4163
Internal structure becoming visible.
The print is actually nearly done at this point.

4164
Finished print with a couple of WINGS planes for scale/contrast.

So the first test print is done.
Did it work?
Sort of.
The object successfully built, but issues with the flat surfaces and detail need to be addressed if possible.

NEXT STEPS:
I am reworking the model to try to address/hide those areas where the shortcomings of the medium or the granularity of the printer scale were apparent.
I have also created accounts at both Sculpteo and Shapeways and will send the model to one or both once my next round of modeling is completed.

It is still questionable whether the model can be refined enough to produce for distribution using this quality 3D Printer using this material.
If it can, the models would be quite inexpensive to create.

The higher end equipment of the commercial printing services will likely yield more detail and less flat surface issues,
but will likely have cost issues if used for manufacture.

Either model might also be used as a start of a sculpt that could then be refined and used as a mold positive for creation of urethane molds to build these objects in resin or pewter.

This process will continue...

Coog
04-19-2013, 17:09
Looks good. I wouldn't have a problem using it as it is.

7eat51
04-19-2013, 17:26
I would be happy using it. Great work Bruce.

Berthier
04-19-2013, 19:54
I would be happy using it. Great work Bruce.

I'm with Eric & Bobby on this, this model looks terrific and for a first print quite remarkable. :salute:

Skullduggery
04-19-2013, 21:47
I agree I would use it myself. Possibly rework it a bit for resin casting.

Diamondback
04-19-2013, 23:47
Ditto what the last guys said. :)

Bligh
04-20-2013, 02:09
Thank you for describing the process Bruce.
I found it enthralling.
I would also be happy to own one of those models. It also made me think about the use of such objects in WOG as targets.
Bligh.

Gaz67
04-20-2013, 05:06
Brilliant thread, nice product as well, looks really good.

Avi
04-20-2013, 05:21
Very impressive, both the process story and the end result.

As for production - I understood there are now bureaus that accept designs for 3D printing.

Nightmoss
04-20-2013, 08:28
Excellent thread with impressive results. The fort is outstanding for a first printing.

RichardPF
04-20-2013, 12:54
Very impressive, both the process story and the end result.

As for production - I understood there are now bureaus that accept designs for 3D printing.

Yes, and this avenue is being explored on a parallel path.
Check the NEXT STEPS section at the bottom of my pictoral post (#73) above.

Sea Gull
04-29-2013, 07:53
A great piece of work Bruce. You'll have to let us know your account names on Shapeways & Sculpteo so we can view and maybe order if teh design passes their test conditions.

Devsdoc
04-29-2013, 09:14
Great work Bruce,
How long did it take to make?
Be safe
Rory