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Devsdoc
03-26-2013, 17:14
As is well known, I am no fan of the model ships, but I can see that they will help some gamers on this site. "Putting my open to all ideas head on" I think you need all the info on the base for the game. But the base does look a little toyish, unlike the plane bases of W.O.G. So anything that would be a new idea for the bases would help the look of the models themselves. Can I also ask "do you think the bases as they look now on the pics, look very thick?"
Be safe
Rory

Berthier
03-27-2013, 03:32
Not a fan of the base as shown either, looks like a show piece rather than a gaming piece. I'm certain the creative amongst us, don't look at me mind you, will find ways to present the same info on a less substantial base.

A clear blue plastic base, etched with the three firing arcs right and left and the markings for the wind gauges would be all we need. The "colours" of the wind direction sectors around the base could be done by hand afterwards using texta (though the blue base may muck this up) or alternatively by applying coloured contact cut to length. Ok this is all a bit messy but you get the idea.

RichardPF
03-27-2013, 04:16
Not a fan of the base as shown either, looks like a show piece rather than a gaming piece. I'm certain the creative amongst us, don't look at me mind you, will find ways to present the same info on a less substantial base.

A clear blue plastic base, etched with the three firing arcs right and left and the markings for the wind gauges would be all we need. The "colours" of the wind direction sectors around the base could be done by hand afterwards using texta (though the blue base may muck this up) or alternatively by applying coloured contact cut to length. Ok this is all a bit messy but you get the idea.

I have been looking at the idea of producing alternate bases a bit, and see what I believe are some potential challenges to manufacturing alternatives.:hmmm:

The height of the base might be a required element based on the depth of the pin.
While pins could be trimmed, my guess is that most would not want to do that.

The depth of the pin may be necessary to hold the ship to the base.
There may be a bit of a Catch 22 going on with this:

The base needs to be thick to provide the height to cover the pin depth.
The pin may need to be long to provide enough surface area to hold the weight of a thick base.

Those who have experience with the altitude pegs of the WoW/WoG airplanes have no doubt experienced this peg attachment purchase issue and possibly the peg adhesive that Aerodrome sells.

Then there is the question of how to you grasp the ship to move it.
It seems to me that the sides of the bases are the most natural place to grasp the ships to move them to the position of the line on the card.
If not lifted by the sides of the bases, the other alternatives would be the sides of the hull or somewhere in the riggings or sails like the ends of a spar.
Neither of these seems to me to be as natural (or precise) as lifting the ship by the sides of the base.

Setting the base height issue aside, the information aspects of alternate base designs that do not use the cards might oresent challenges as well.

If the firing arcs and/or point of sail performance areas are different by ship design, producing alternate bases gets even more problematic:

Etching the firing arcs into the bases would require unique bases for each ship.
Without etched bases the cards would need to be used which would pretty much negate any differential of a clear or clear blue base.

As a random base design aside, a design with a pin in the base rather than the ship would seem to make more sense to me,
but until the details of the design can be examined with the actual ships, there may be other considerations at work that are not immediately apparent to me.

7eat51
03-27-2013, 06:55
Played WoG yesterday. It was a bit funny seeing folks struggle, at times, picking up the planes to move them due to the bases. In some ways, we wished the bases had a little lip or something that would make picking them up a bit easier. With these ships, the last thing I would want to do is resort to picking up the piece by the actual ship portion. The thicker base, though not as attractive, might be a blessing in disguise. Unlike some of the other naval mini games I have seen (but not played), those systems use charts, etc., so the actual pieces did not need to carry information on them other than the ship itself.

Beowulf03809
03-27-2013, 09:40
As is well known, I am no fan of the model ships, but I can see that they will help some gamers on this site.

Rory, are your issues due to the scale (example not being able to use existing fleets of a smaller scale) or the quality of the sculpt based on the early pics? I really enjoy modeling and painting but unfortunately have such a large backlog of Lord of the Rings (hundreds) and Flames of War (dozens) figures that I couldn't honestly consider getting into another game right now where I had to build and paint my fleet before I can play. This was a big reason I jumped on the XWing game (nice looking prebuilt models) and a strong attraction for me for SoG. I can say that I wish there were kit versions in the same scale for when I want to do them, and I look forward to doing some custom work on the SoG models as well. But the time-value of prebuilt/prepainted really was the push that got me onto this vs. earlier AoS games I've looked at.

Again...this is coming from someone with no existing fleet in a smaller, but well established, scale.

Regarding attachment of ship to base, I will just mention again that if they went with Rare Earth magnets it would eliminate the peg issue and allow for a thinner base if they wanted, but it's pretty late in the process for a change like that. I'm sure production, with pegs, may be underway. If no one has used these for modeling yet, don't fret on the strength or compare them to experiences with the more traditional black disk magnets you may have familiarity with. RE magnets are STRONG for their size. In FoW we often use them to secure turrets to tanks, allowing you to swap out turrets for mounting different guns as well as easier storage and safe table play. I have also seen players mount their vehicles on display bases with a RE and it would hold it even upside down and still pop off easy enough with some pressure for play. A magnet with about the same diameter as a standard model peg, perhaps a little larger, would hold the ship flush and strong on the base and still separate easily when you want.

Sea Gull
03-27-2013, 10:17
Well AA already has the magnets.

Are we talking about using magnets for the SoG ships or for 1/1200th scale ships to be mounted on an SoG style base?

Maybe that's an idea for the accessories, extra bases in different sizes (are the bases different sizes for different models? I can't remember). This allows no SoG ships to be mounted to SoG type bases. As we've seen on the WoG site the people there have produced cards for the non official planes. Im sure the members of this commuity can produce cards for non official ships. Or am I rambling incoherently once again? :question: It's either the drink :rum:, or it's the fever :sick:

:minis:

Gunner
03-27-2013, 11:40
All this talk about how to move the ship. These are not the fragile pewter models we all have built. They look much sturdier, and I'll probably move them by holding the sides of the sails, so I won't care how thick or thin the base is, and will probably make my own if there are no clear blue ones commercially available.

The Royal Hajj
03-27-2013, 15:50
I have both ships and a base in hand now, so I'll try and shed some light on this subject.


I have been looking at the idea of producing alternate bases a bit, and see what I believe are some potential challenges to manufacturing alternatives.:hmmm:

The height of the base might be a required element based on the depth of the pin.
While pins could be trimmed, my guess is that most would not want to do that.

This has been the case with most of the Wings players and mounting their planes to my Gimbal Mounts.



The depth of the pin may be necessary to hold the ship to the base.
There may be a bit of a Catch 22 going on with this:

The base needs to be thick to provide the height to cover the pin depth.
The pin may need to be long to provide enough surface area to hold the weight of a thick base.

Those who have experience with the altitude pegs of the WoW/WoG airplanes have no doubt experienced this peg attachment purchase issue and possibly the peg adhesive that Aerodrome sells.


This is indeed the case. The pin is mounted on the bottom of the ship and needs length to go thru the clear protective cover, ship card, and down into the base to hold well enough not to come off or move around much.



Then there is the question of how to you grasp the ship to move it.
It seems to me that the sides of the bases are the most natural place to grasp the ships to move them to the position of the line on the card.
If not lifted by the sides of the bases, the other alternatives would be the sides of the hull or somewhere in the riggings or sails like the ends of a spar.
Neither of these seems to me to be as natural (or precise) as lifting the ship by the sides of the base.


It's very easy and stable to pick the entire gaming piece up and move it around using the edge of the base... nice actually.



Setting the base height issue aside, the information aspects of alternate base designs that do not use the cards might oresent challenges as well.

If the firing arcs and/or point of sail performance areas are different by ship design, producing alternate bases gets even more problematic:

Etching the firing arcs into the bases would require unique bases for each ship.
Without etched bases the cards would need to be used which would pretty much negate any differential of a clear or clear blue base.

As a random base design aside, a design with a pin in the base rather than the ship would seem to make more sense to me,
but until the details of the design can be examined with the actual ships, there may be other considerations at work that are not immediately apparent to me.

The pin has to be in the bottom of the ship as some of them are pretty thin, one of the frigates in the starter set is only about 4-5mm thick in the center (where the pin is). I don't think this is thick enough for a pin in the base to have a firm seal on a ship. I believe Ares got it right on this part.




Regarding attachment of ship to base, I will just mention again that if they went with Rare Earth magnets it would eliminate the peg issue and allow for a thinner base if they wanted, but it's pretty late in the process for a change like that. I'm sure production, with pegs, may be underway. If no one has used these for modeling yet, don't fret on the strength or compare them to experiences with the more traditional black disk magnets you may have familiarity with. RE magnets are STRONG for their size. In FoW we often use them to secure turrets to tanks, allowing you to swap out turrets for mounting different guns as well as easier storage and safe table play. I have also seen players mount their vehicles on display bases with a RE and it would hold it even upside down and still pop off easy enough with some pressure for play. A magnet with about the same diameter as a standard model peg, perhaps a little larger, would hold the ship flush and strong on the base and still separate easily when you want.

RE magnets work great for the hobbyist among us. For Ares, it is an added expense and a very big liability for them. In fact, RE magnets are banned in some countries.

Diamondback
03-27-2013, 16:21
Hey, boss... how much dead-space is there inside the base? Is it enough that you could maybe store the maneuver deck in there, or that it might be possible to build a hollow base that could engage the peg and still hold the deck when not being played?

The Royal Hajj
03-27-2013, 17:21
There is support plastic around the peg hole on the bottom side of the base... so no room to store the maneuver deck. But I'm not sure if the inside of the base would be tall enough to fit a deck under it anyway.

The Royal Hajj
03-27-2013, 17:22
Also, on an interesting note, the SGN cards are going to be a little larger than the Wings cards.

Andy Blozinski
03-27-2013, 18:56
The FoW bases have a bevel on them. I've always flipped them upside down so the bevel was on the underside. This makes them very easy to pick up. I think the thickness of the SoG bases will make them easy to pick up. If there are thinner optional bases, I would suggest putting a bevel on the underside.

The Royal Hajj
03-27-2013, 19:11
The SGN base do have a slight bevel to them, in the same direction as the Wings bases... but it is a lot less of a bevel then those bases. Very easy to pick up.

Gunner
03-27-2013, 20:38
Keith, can you give us the length & width of the two bases?

RichardPF
03-28-2013, 04:29
The pin has to be in the bottom of the ship as some of them are pretty thin, one of the frigates in the starter set is only about 4-5mm thick in the center (where the pin is). I don't think this is thick enough for a pin in the base to have a firm seal on a ship. I believe Ares got it right on this part.



I believe that the measurement that you are referring to here is Freeboard.

Freeboard is the vertical distance between the waterline and the deck.
Consulting the dimensions and line drawings I have for the ships in the starter set, that would be about to scale for the HMS Terpsichore.
For a warship of this era, that is quite a small value, and something that I had not considered.
I agree that to do a model of a ship with that little freeboard in this scale, a pin in the base would not be practical.
If the bases are all of the same design (which they really should be for manufacturing sanity), then the pin in the ship is the only way to go.:salute:

The Royal Hajj
03-28-2013, 07:17
I've created this new thread and moved all of the posts about the bases here since, while related, it off topic now a little from the accessories line.


Keith, can you give us the length & width of the two bases?

SGN only uses one base size, 75x50mm.



I believe that the measurement that you are referring to here is Freeboard.

Thanks for the term Bruce, that is indeed what I was talking about and the ship that I was measuring.

Beowulf03809
03-28-2013, 08:03
I never heard discussion of the liability issue on RE magnets before but I understand some of the risks. Interesting about the banning.

Thanks for the details on the size of the ships. I don't think there is much option to the peg based on how you describe a frigate in those terms.

RichardPF
03-28-2013, 17:21
The SGN base do have a slight bevel to them, in the same direction as the Wings bases... but it is a lot less of a bevel then those bases. Very easy to pick up.

Having a slight bevel is possibly a requirement of the molding process.
I believe that any type of production molding process of a part of this height (as opposed to say, resin or low temp metal casting into flexible rubber type molds) would need to have at least a minimal taper.

Devsdoc
03-28-2013, 19:08
Rory, are your issues due to the scale (example not being able to use existing fleets of a smaller scale) or the quality of the sculpt based on the early pics? I really enjoy modeling and painting but unfortunately have such a large backlog of Lord of the Rings (hundreds) and Flames of War (dozens) figures that I couldn't honestly consider getting into another game right now where I had to build and paint my fleet before I can play. This was a big reason I jumped on the XWing game (nice looking prebuilt models) and a strong attraction for me for SoG. I can say that I wish there were kit versions in the same scale for when I want to do them, and I look forward to doing some custom work on the SoG models as well. But the time-value of prebuilt/prepainted really was the push that got me onto this vs. earlier AoS games I've looked at.

Again...this is coming from someone with no existing fleet in a smaller, but well established, scale.


Lawrence,
It is not the models themsleves or the scale. Its the "I must buy models (I already have) to play the game". I would go out of my way to help anyone make, paint or rig any ship model I can. I think the scale will not be a issues and I think one could play both sets 1-1200 and 1-1100 in one game O.K. Some may not like this but if the base sizes match I think it would work. As to the models themselves, to me they look 1/2 done, sorry!. This is O.K. as some of you will wish to add more paint, rigging and rat-lines to your S.O.G. models. This may set you thinking I could have a go myself at a whole model. A lot of wargamers play with unpainted or 1/2 painted models. Ship of the line is one (model based) game which you cannot play as well with un or 1/2 painted models. I think this has put them into "They are something superior" box .If S.O.G. models are your way into this part of wargaming, I'm happy to help and would happly play S.O.G with you and get a buzz from your enjoyment of your new fleet(s). In this tread some are taking about handleing them when they are rigged, just pick them up I do (this weekend I'll take some pics of me doing so and post they on this thread). So a lot of people think I hate the models, I do'nt, it is I must buy the whole thing ship and all or not. I think I would be happy to buy the game at the same price with no ships, just the bases, cards and rules. Some think I Hate the game, let them! I do not.
Be safe
Rory

The Royal Hajj
03-28-2013, 23:47
Rory, you could always sell the SGN ships without the other game components. This happens a lot with the Wings planes. If you added a little more paint and some light rigging, you could probably sell them for more then what you paid for them... still without the game parts. Just something for you to think about.

Volunteer
03-29-2013, 03:15
Lawrence,
It is not the models themsleves or the scale. Its the "I must buy models (I already have) to play the game". I would go out of my way to help anyone make, paint or rig any ship model I can. I think the scale will not be a issues and I think one could play both sets 1-1200 and 1-1100 in one game O.K. Some may not like this but if the base sizes match I think it would work. As to the models themselves, to me they look 1/2 done, sorry!. This is O.K. as some of you will wish to add more paint, rigging and rat-lines to your S.O.G. models. This may set you thinking I could have a go myself at a whole model. A lot of wargamers play with unpainted or 1/2 painted models. Ship of the line is one (model based) game which you cannot play as well with un or 1/2 painted models. I think this has put them into "They are something superior" box .If S.O.G. models are your way into this part of wargaming, I'm happy to help and would happly play S.O.G with you and get a buzz from your enjoyment of your new fleet(s). In this tread some are taking about handleing them when they are rigged, just pick them up I do (this weekend I'll take some pics of me doing so and post they on this thread). So a lot of people think I hate the models, I do'nt, it is I must buy the whole thing ship and all or not. I think I would be happy to buy the game at the same price with no ships, just the bases, cards and rules. Some think I Hate the game, let them! I do not.
Be safe
Rory

Rory,

You have expressed my sentiments better than I could have, thus my silence on the subject up to this point. I now have upwards of 100 ships, and an AoS game system I thoroughly enjoy, and all for an expenditure well under what it would take to purchase SOG and just a fraction of the ships I now have. I am gaming on a 4' x 8' table. I have a family with one girl in college and another ready in a few years. I don't have the extra disposable funds to throw at another gamng system and models that duplicates what I already have. I can't justify that to my wife and kids.

Like Rory, I would be more than happy to help anyone with the SOG models (rig, paint, modify, etc. to their specifications). I can even say I would enjoy doing so, since the modeling itself is my first love with the gaming second.

Lawrence,

I know what you mean about your backlog of unpainted LoTR figures. I have hundreds of unpainted 28MM Greeks, Persians, Italians, Romans; 1/72 Napoleonics, Normans, Saxons; 20MM ACW, etc. that I am not sure I will live long enough to finish now that I have discovered AoS. I have done nothing but AoS since my first ship Christmas before last.

Beowulf03809
03-29-2013, 07:50
@Rory - understood. I didn't mean to touch on a sore spot if I did. I am new around here and value the opinions and input of others and was interested in your perspective. I greatly appreciate it!

I like the sculpts of the models from what I can see (especially visible in the Constitution and Victory pics) but am hoping the pics of the painted versions may still be "working set" versions. If that is how they look delivered then it's not too bad for a pre-painted gaming model, will really impress and excite new players, and appears a very good starting point for some enhancement. I think I will eventually pick up some models to build myself as well and am not too bothered by the scale differences. Looking at a frigate it appears the difference in scaled length between 1200 and 1100 is only about 3.5mm and unless I had the models side by side I don't think that's going to be very visible. In my FoW gaming I use armor from a couple different companies and there's some variation there but on the table you can't really tell. Even among the same manufacturer (GW) and game system (LotR) there is variation between the height of figures when I compare models sculpted a few years apart.

@Vol - some of my friends I game with recently jumped into Black Powder with both feet, focusing on Napoleonic for now, but I had to sit that one out. Finances is one big factor but time is the other. I'm looking forward to a game system where the modeling aspect is optional if only for a short time.

Devsdoc
03-29-2013, 17:17
@Rory - understood. I didn't mean to touch on a sore spot if I did. I am new around here and value the opinions and input of others and was interested in your perspective. I greatly appreciate it!

I like the sculpts of the models from what I can see (especially visible in the Constitution and Victory pics) but am hoping the pics of the painted versions may still be "working set" versions. If that is how they look delivered then it's not too bad for a pre-painted gaming model, will really impress and excite new players, and appears a very good starting point for some enhancement. I think I will eventually pick up some models to build myself as well and am not too bothered by the scale differences. Looking at a frigate it appears the difference in scaled length between 1200 and 1100 is only about 3.5mm and unless I had the models side by side I don't think that's going to be very visible. In my FoW gaming I use armor from a couple different companies and there's some variation there but on the table you can't really tell. Even among the same manufacturer (GW) and game system (LotR) there is variation between the height of figures when I compare models sculpted a few years apart..

Lawrence,
If I have made you uncomfortable about me or my thougths I'm very Sorry:embarass: I hope I said it all on this thread#19. All I would say is "enjoy them, they are good models". I,m like Vol I just do'nt know????? My British Napoleonic 15mm army is made of old and new "Minfigs" they are very different in height and build the older ones are smaller and stringer. At one time if you play S.O.G. with the two scales of ships you will have at some point two ships side by side (Firing or boarding) its what Age of sail is all about.
Be safe
Rory

Keith,
Who would buy base-less ships, I would need the bases for myself?
Be safe
Rory

Gunner
03-29-2013, 17:37
Keith,
Who would buy base-less ships, I would need the bases for myself?
Be safe
Rory


There are many different rule sets out there. I think a lot of gammers will want the ships without bases to use with them. The price is not much more than metal kits and you don't have to paint or build them.

Berthier
03-29-2013, 17:55
SGN only uses one base size, 75x50mm.

FOr comparison Langton's use bases as follows:



RESIN
MX15 - 40x65mm (frigates)
MX16 - 40x75mm (3rd rates)
MX17 - 40x85mm (3-deckers)




METAL
MX18 - 50x20mm (unrated)




So they use differnet base sizes for different ratings whereas SOG uses the same for all. Purists may decry the one size fits all but I haven't a problem with it as the this is from the 'design for effect' rather than 'design for accuracy' school. SOG is very much in the first design school, make it easy to play, approachable, quick play, non intimidating. Complexity we can add ourselves if we desire.

Devsdoc
03-29-2013, 19:10
Hi Daniel,
That is just a little bigger than a Langton 3rd rater! I have some 4th raters and had to pick 3rd rate or Frigate bases (Langtons) for them. In the end I went with the 3rd rate base as the 4th rate is a smaller ship of the line. So for rated ship I can see it being O.K. but for smaller unrated ships I do'nt known?:dazed: I can think of no naval sail rules that do this? Would a tank take as much ground spaces as a jeep on a battlefield?:question:
Be safe
Rory

So Keith,
One size fits all, I would need only one base size:hmmm:
Be safe
Rory

Berthier
03-29-2013, 19:29
Well maybe they are using the concept of sea room. That is in a specific space of time say 2 minutes, a small ship which naturally travels faster might conceivably be anywhere (well almost, wind plays a large factor) in a certain area and a larger ship moving slower "might" be anywhere in a similar area. This is very much Heisenberg's uncertain principle where an electron cant be pinned down to an exact location just an area (excuse my poor physics, the details are a little hazy after thirty years)

So again this might be a design for effect as well as a cost saving measure. Not sure I like it but that's what we have. It's hard to know how this will play out without the full rules set to work with.

The Royal Hajj
03-29-2013, 19:51
They are using one base for easy of production and standardizing the maneuver cards. The cards are what determine how far the ships move, and having a standard starting point to base the length of the arrows off of made things much easier. There is a point to be made about a smaller ship being the same target size as a larger one, but I'm not really sure how much that matters. You could also always use a "shoot at the real thing" house rule.

Devsdoc
03-29-2013, 20:02
Daniel,
Your physics is better than mine:hatsoff:. We will see when the full games comes out?
Be safe.
Rory

Devsdoc
03-31-2013, 17:34
Lawrence,
In this tread some are taking about handleing them when they are rigged, just pick them up I do (this weekend I'll take some pics of me doing so and post they on this thread).
Be safe
Rory

I said I would so here they are. Do'nt have kittens (Or "Ships Cats")
280828092810

The hand of God and Godess are mine and Janes (My better half). In about 2 years of using the ships I have had to re-touch the ends of the spares once on one or two models. I think the handeling bit was before this thread was spit
Be safe
Rory

Sea Gull
04-01-2013, 03:39
:erk:

Volunteer
04-01-2013, 05:27
Ha, Ha, Ha! That's exactly how I pick mine up Rory! They do just fine. My 12 year old and friends do too and I don't wory at all.

Devsdoc
04-05-2013, 20:49
Hi All,
Sorry for bring this up so late in the day. But why do you need the peg? why not glue the ship to the base? If it is hard to do at the factory, could we not do it ourselfs? I know some of us are not good at modeling, but come on we can all glue two clean, flat pieces of plastic together. That would make the bases look so much better, so make the ship less toy-like. By the way how are the mast kept in the hull?
Be safe
Rory

Gunner
04-05-2013, 21:46
Hi All,
Sorry for bring this up so late in the day. But why do you need the peg? why not glue the ship to the base? If it is hard to do at the factory, could we not do it ourselfs? I know some of us are not good at modeling, but come on we can all glue two clean, flat pieces of plastic together. That would make the bases look so much better, so make the ship less toy-like. By the way how are the mast kept in the hull?
Be safe
Rory

I'm glad they don't.
Since I (like many others) don't like the thick base, I'll have custom bases made up if the Anchorage doesn't sell them.

Diamondback
04-05-2013, 22:28
You could also always use a "shoot at the real thing" house rule.
Problem with that is you'd have to HR extending musket range...

The Royal Hajj
04-06-2013, 07:06
Hi All,
Sorry for bring this up so late in the day. But why do you need the peg? why not glue the ship to the base? If it is hard to do at the factory, could we not do it ourselfs? I know some of us are not good at modeling, but come on we can all glue two clean, flat pieces of plastic together. That would make the bases look so much better, so make the ship less toy-like. By the way how are the mast kept in the hull?
Be safe
Rory

I don't think this is really an option as there is a game card that goes between the miniature and the base. I guess you could glue that down as well, but then you would lose the ship stats that are on the other side of it (they are double sided now). So, to glue it down to the base, you would need to glue the card to the base, the clear cover to the card, and finally, the ship to the clear cover. Of course you could fore go the clear cover and leave your card unprotected for it's life span.

The Royal Hajj
04-06-2013, 07:07
Problem with that is you'd have to HR extending musket range...

What's another house rule if you are already modifying how the game plays? lol

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 12:42
I don't think this is really an option as there is a game card that goes between the miniature and the base. I guess you could glue that down as well, but then you would lose the ship stats that are on the other side of it (they are double sided now). So, to glue it down to the base, you would need to glue the card to the base, the clear cover to the card, and finally, the ship to the clear cover. Of course you could fore go the clear cover and leave your card unprotected for it's life span.


So Keith,
Is it a card game with some models thrown in? Or a model game with not enough models? Can it try to be both and miss it all? How long would the cards or the ships last if you keep on chargeing them all the time? Sorry for all the :question: I'm not putting the game or models down. Please do not jump all over me becaues of this post:pray:. I just don't get it:help:
Be safe
Rory

Coog
04-06-2013, 13:34
By the looks of the ship cards it appears that you could just use the card without the model. But unlike the cards for Wings of Glory, there doesn't appear to be a picture of the ship on the card and the visual effect would be somewhat lacking.

The Royal Hajj
04-06-2013, 14:39
There is no "card ship", the card that is inserted in to the base is just the winds zones, firing arcs, and maneuver markings. While it would be possible to play the game with only the base and card, you would not really be able to tell what you were playing since there is no ship depicted on the card.

As to them wearing out, I've been playing Wings for over 5 years and 3 cons a year for the past 3 years. None of my cards or minis show signs of excess ware (a few bent cards from the kids, but that's it).

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 15:03
There is no "card ship", the card that is inserted in to the base is just the winds zones, firing arcs, and maneuver markings. While it would be possible to play the game with only the base and card, you would not really be able to tell what you were playing since there is no ship depicted on the card.

As to them wearing out, I've been playing Wings for over 5 years and 3 cons a year for the past 3 years. None of my cards or minis show signs of excess ware (a few bent cards from the kids, but that's it).

Hi Keith,
So why the double-sided card that you can not stick down. Sorry only seeing what you and SOG show me. I maybe dumb but I do not get it:smack:
Be safe
Rory

7eat51
04-06-2013, 15:06
I think it is the logs that are double-sided. The logs give the specifics on the ships, with the cards giving class specific info that would be used for all ships in that given class.

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 15:42
Hi Eric,
This I understand. But why the double-sided base card, if all classes of ships have the same wind zone and firering arcs. We are told one size base for all rates of ships. So what is the diffidence on the two sides of the ships base card that can not be stick-down or printed onto the base.
Be safe
Rory

7eat51
04-06-2013, 16:12
Hi Rory,

I just reread the KS, and yes, the cards are double-sided. I wonder if that statement was unnecessary in that the same side of a card could be used for a different ship of the same class, especially one that would otherwise simply be a different paint. The only thing I can think of is if the second log changes the ship in some fundamental way that would affect firing arcs, etc., e.g. addition of bow-chasers, modifying a deck to add more guns. So if I may, I would like to join you in the confusion.

Eric

The Royal Hajj
04-06-2013, 18:39
The "ship" card also states the name and nation of the ship. As such, it will be double sided to show this. If it was not, you would have a very hard time fielding both A and B versions of the miniature as they would look identical on the table. Having the name and country flag gives enough visual clue as not to mix them up.

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 19:50
The "ship" card also states the name and nation of the ship. As such, it will be double sided to show this. If it was not, you would have a very hard time fielding both A and B versions of the miniature as they would look identical on the table. Having the name and country flag gives enough visual clue as not to mix them up.

Ah! Keith,
Now I get it! A deep base so you can have a long peg from the ship model, So you can trap a piece of card between the base and the ship so I will not mix up which ship is which . Oh! Keith' Straight out of the box and play is one thing. But that is the biscuit! To whom are they aimming this game at?
Thin bases no peg = better looking ships. Sticky backed papier or molded or painted wind zones/ firing arcs. Stick ship to base. Flags on the flag pole and a little label with the ships :- Name, numder of guns and a nice little flag incase you missed the one on the ship.
Be safe
Rory Aged 56

P.S. As you have a ship to hand. How are the masts kept in the hull?

The Royal Hajj
04-06-2013, 20:16
The game is marketed at non hobbyist who want to be playing within 10 minutes of opening the box. It's much easier (and better for sales) for them to make them this way and let us hobbyist modify them to fit our needs. The masts will be glued in (mine came partly assembled and the masts were not attached).

Gunner
04-06-2013, 20:23
Ah! Keith,
Now I get it! A deep base so you can have a long peg from the ship model, So you can trap a piece of card between the base and the ship so I will not mix up which ship is which . Oh! Keith' Straight out of the box and play is one thing. But that is the biscuit! To whom are they aimming this game at?
Thin bases no peg = better looking ships. Sticky backed papier or molded or painted wind zones/ firing arcs. Stick ship to base. Flags on the flag pole and a little label with the ships :- Name, numder of guns and a nice little flag incase you missed the one on the ship.
Be safe
Rory Aged 56

P.S. As you have a ship to hand. How are the masts kept in the hull?

Since the ships will be in the stores in a few months, it's a little late to ask why they did certain things. I've already ordered some thin clear light blue bases with plans to use clear printed labels.
As far as I know, the masts, deck and hull are put together as one piece.

Ed Age 72

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 20:31
Hi Keith,
Thanks for your help. It helps me understand the models better and the game. Also what I (and maybe some members on this site) could do with them to make them look better, but still play the game and enjoy the look of the game:thumbsup: :salute:
Be safe
Rory

The Royal Hajj
04-06-2013, 20:46
Please keep in mind these are preproduction versions of the ship. The actual sculpt is one level below production (they have added more details) and the paint work is several levels below production standards (and beat up from all the handling, they are my work horses for other products) and these, from what I understand, were used to confirm the locations of different colors, not the final colors/level of detail or crispness. The base is also a level or two below production.

http://sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3211&d=1365302488

http://sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3210&d=1365302487

http://sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3212&d=1365302489

http://sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3213&d=1365302490

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 20:57
Since the ships will be in the stores in a few months, it's a little late to ask why they did certain things. I've already ordered some thin clear light blue bases with plans to use clear printed labels.
As far as I know, the masts, deck and hull are put together as one piece.

Ed Age 72

Hi Ed,
I have been asking about the bases for a long time on this site, SOG Ya-hoo groups, TMP naval site and privately on-line. Keith is the first person in the know who has answered me:salute:. I now understand the why's! I like your idea, but watch out that your ships do not look as if they are flying and not floating. I tryed a clear base (5mm) for my harbour and it looked so high of the table it looked all wrong! If I buy this game (Looks 50/50 at this time) I need too know so I can do as you are doing and rig them I still think most gamers (not Hobbyish) could do a little sticking themselfs for a better look to the game from the box.
Be safe
Rory

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 21:08
Please keep in mind these are preproduction versions of the ship. The actual sculpt is one level below production (they have added more details) and the paint work is several levels below production standards (and beat up from all the handling, they are my work horses for other products) and these, from what I understand, were used to confirm the locations of different colors, not the final colors/level of detail or crispness. The base is also a level or two below production.]


Thanks Keith,
Think I could work with this. A little hard to rig the fore mast no sides to drill into, but room to add small rings. This is workerable:fixit:

Be safe
Rory

Gunner
04-06-2013, 21:24
Hello Rory,

The bases I'm talking about are 1/8" acrylic. My main concern is how the transparent ink labels will show up on the light blue bases. I'll find out in a couple of weeks.
If you like naval wargaming, I think you'll love SoG. So many ways to go with the ships and rules. And if you haven't, get in on the kickstarter before the 16th for some great perks.

Ed

Devsdoc
04-06-2013, 22:12
Hello Rory,

The bases I'm talking about are 1/8" acrylic. My main concern is how the transparent ink labels will show up on the light blue bases. I'll find out in a couple of weeks.
If you like naval wargaming, I think you'll love SoG. So many ways to go with the ships and rules. And if you haven't, get in on the kickstarter before the 16th for some great perks.

Ed


Hi Ed,
I too I'm looking forward to see your bases Could you post them here when they are done? I should not say this but I have so much time and money tied up in my 1/1200 ships and shore-lines. I have just cut out a 4ft plan shore line into two matching 1/2's, will start painting it soon. I think I would buy a Starter Set only for Christmas/Brithday to see what I could use? So kickstarter is not the way for me and the added cost for living in the U.K. Hopefully I can sail in your wake and enjoy your enjoyment 2nd hand of this new game. I look forward to seeing and talking more to you.
Be safe
Rory

RichardPF
04-06-2013, 22:19
Please keep in mind these are preproduction versions of the ship. The actual sculpt is one level below production (they have added more details) and the paint work is several levels below production standards (and beat up from all the handling, they are my work horses for other products) and these, from what I understand, were used to confirm the locations of different colors, not the final colors/level of detail or crispness. The base is also a level or two below production.


Sail to spar molding details show up well in your photos and answer a lot of questions.
The ships look to be pretty much impervious to damaging from handling by the yards.
Jib connection points do look to be a bit fragile though.

The Barrelman
04-06-2013, 22:19
Nice detailed shots!!

I for one do not mind if the bases are a bit on the thick side. There are many other miniature games that also have thick bases. I know X-Wing does to accommodate the card that is placed in the base to identify the model.

What is the planned thickness of the production base compared to other types like the stock Wings base or the fine bases you produce for the Aerodrome?

Thanks

:salute:

Gunner
04-06-2013, 22:47
Hi Ed,
I too I'm looking forward to see your bases Could you post them here when they are done? I should not say this but I have so much time and money tied up in my 1/1200 ships and shore-lines. I have just cut out a 4ft plan shore line into two matching 1/2's, will start painting it soon. I think I would buy a Starter Set only for Christmas/Brithday to see what I could use? So kickstarter is not the way for me and the added cost for living in the U.K. Hopefully I can sail in your wake and enjoy your enjoyment 2nd hand of this new game. I look forward to seeing and talking more to you.
Be safe
Rory

The mfg said it would be two weeks before they can ship them, but if you PM your address, I'll mail one to you when they come in.

Diamondback
04-06-2013, 23:07
I'm considering trying to reinforce the jibs on mine by rigging those "free-floating" sails up front with wire instead of thread.

The Royal Hajj
04-06-2013, 23:13
There is surprisingly quite a bit of plastic at the jib connection. As long as your are not picking the ship up and man handling it by the jib, I don't think it's going to be an issue. I was really impressed with how Ares designed these ships, very robust.

David Manley
04-07-2013, 00:14
Please keep in mind these are preproduction versions of the ship.

The vast majority of SOG players will, I am sure, be 100% happy with these "out of the box". For others, simply painting in the spars and a thin brown/black wash will do wonders. Rigging would be easier if some of the bulwarks were a bit higher, but some of Rod's ships were examples of types with minimalist forward bulwarks, so a dab of glue and the thread held down with a knife point there I think.

But I'm currently wondering whether to do any of that. If i'm using these a lot for demo/parti games at wargame shows I'm thinking I should maintain the "out of the box" aspect so that prospective purchasers will see what they are actually going to get. Any thoughts on that?

Devsdoc
04-07-2013, 00:33
Nice detailed shots!!

I for one do not mind if the bases are a bit on the thick side. There are many other miniature games that also have thick bases. I know X-Wing does to accommodate the card that is placed in the base to identify the model.

What is the planned thickness of the production base compared to other types like the stock Wings base or the fine bases you produce for the Aerodrome?

Thanks

:salute:

Hi Ted,
Yes you are right, for planes you can have a thick base it is not a part of the model. you see just the plane on a see-through stick Unlike the ship that sits right on it.


The mfg said it would be two weeks before they can ship them, but if you PM your address, I'll mail one to you when they come in.

Hi Ed,
Will do thanks


I'm considering trying to reinforce the jibs on mine by rigging those "free-floating" sails up front with wire instead of thread.

Hi Diamondback,
I think it will be O.K. See my post on this thread #30 I think the mast and jib are more likely to bend on a metal ship than SOG plastic one's. Rigging wth thread will hold it just like the real thing. Wire is overkill and may damage the model.

Be safe All
Rory

7eat51
04-07-2013, 00:44
The vast majority of SOG players will, I am sure, be 100% happy with these "out of the box". For others, simply painting in the spars and a thin brown/black wash will do wonders. Rigging would be easier if some of the bulwarks were a bit higher, but some of Rod's ships were examples of types with minimalist forward bulwarks, so a dab of glue and the thread held down with a knife point there I think.

But I'm currently wondering whether to do any of that. If i'm using these a lot for demo/parti games at wargame shows I'm thinking I should maintain the "out of the box" aspect so that prospective purchasers will see what they are actually going to get. Any thoughts on that?

I think you raise a valid point: marketing at conventions, etc. It would probably be a good idea to keep, at the minimum, some ships in their original state. Based on what I have seen with friends playing WoG, many, if not most, causal players will like the ships as is very much. If Keith's photos are below grade, then the finished products should look fairly good. For those who don't model, they will look great.

Gunner
04-07-2013, 01:05
The vast majority of SOG players will, I am sure, be 100% happy with these "out of the box". For others, simply painting in the spars and a thin brown/black wash will do wonders. Rigging would be easier if some of the bulwarks were a bit higher, but some of Rod's ships were examples of types with minimalist forward bulwarks, so a dab of glue and the thread held down with a knife point there I think.

But I'm currently wondering whether to do any of that. If i'm using these a lot for demo/parti games at wargame shows I'm thinking I should maintain the "out of the box" aspect so that prospective purchasers will see what they are actually going to get. Any thoughts on that?

That's why you need two of everything. One for show (rigging etc) and one for go (out of the box).

Devsdoc
04-07-2013, 01:16
The vast majority of SOG players will, I am sure, be 100% happy with these "out of the box". For others, simply painting in the spars and a thin brown/black wash will do wonders. Rigging would be easier if some of the bulwarks were a bit higher, but some of Rod's ships were examples of types with minimalist forward bulwarks, so a dab of glue and the thread held down with a knife point there I think.

But I'm currently wondering whether to do any of that. If i'm using these a lot for demo/parti games at wargame shows I'm thinking I should maintain the "out of the box" aspect so that prospective purchasers will see what they are actually going to get. Any thoughts on that?

Hi David,
I think your right on all counts. I glue a very small ring to the hull from a small link chain I have onto the model before painting, on some of Rods ships eg NR1 Mizzen mast. I tried the knife bit and got most of the thread glued to the knife and cocktail-stick:erk: I used. How do you do that? I would make the SOG ships for me. Saying this is what you could do with them. If I was showing a "Out of the box" aspect at domo/parti game. I would ask what % are you getting and use Ares models? Hard, but life!
Be safe
Rory

Andy Blozinski
04-07-2013, 09:37
I'm glad to see they're durable. That's what I want. I might add rigging to the jibs just because it looks a bit weird having them go into nothingness. I'm thinking rig the jibs, ratlines...call it a day. Ratlines add SO much and should be easy to do.