Maximizing the Kickstarter

[7eat51]

It is awesome seeing how well the kickstarter is doing. Are there ways to ensure it does not lose the wind in its sails?

Recently, I was part of a kickstarter for Pathfinder RPG. One of the things Paizo did was providing add-ons. If someone added on $25 to their pledge, they would receive something, etc. I am not sure if Ares has anything like that planned, but for those of us who have pledged at the captain level, there is really no place for us to go now in adding more. Many of us would be happy to kick in more money for an island, or some captain cards, etc. This would help Ares reach its other stretch goals. Unfortunately, we can buy additional product when the stretch goal is reached. If the proposed ships were add-ons, we could pledge the $20 apiece up front, and if the stretch goals are reached, the ships become a reality, otherwise the added on cash is returned. There is a better chance this way of Ares getting the funding.

Just some ramblings on how the kickstarter could garner more funds.

[RichardPF]

I am with you. I understand that everyone's financial position is different, but I had expected to find and sign on for a pledge level substantially above the Early Bird Captain. It was a bit of a bummer that there wasn't one.

[Watchdog]

Some Kickstarter companies offer add-ons a couple of days before the end of the campaign, or just before an important goal is about to be reached.

Ares would do a smart thing to add small add-ons later.

[7eat51]

I am with you. I understand that everyone's financial position is different, but I had expected to find and sign on for a pledge level substantially above the Early Bird Captain. It was a bit of a bummer that there wasn't one.

I agree. I couldn't believe that the most they asked of individuals was around $250. For the first time ever, I was ready to pledge more, a lot more. I must admit, that was primarily due to this community. The time spent here has deepened my interest in the game. I think that says something of the folks here, and our need to recruit members to the Anchorage.


Some Kickstarter companies offer add-ons a couple of days before the end of the campaign, or just before an important goal is about to be reached.

Ares would do a smart thing to add small add-ons later.

I think they would do well to do it now. There is momentum. If they do one add-on now, and if that reaches a stretch goal quickly, then add on another, etc.

[Watchdog]

Eric, I think we are going to reach 50,000$ quite quickly, however, the following stretch goals may require some candy.

[7eat51]

Eric, I think we are going to reach 50,000$ quite quickly, however, the following stretch goals may require some candy.

I believe you are correct. Edit: I just checked and it is already over $42,000.

Jan, you and others have mentioned in another thread about the postage, taxes, etc. I agree that the postage, duties, and taxes make it difficult for Europeans and others to be as involved as you might want to be.

One possible solution is to create a $1 or $5 pledge - or something like that - that simply goes to defraying some of the postage cost internationally. I, and I am sure others here, would be happy to make such a pledge to help our fellow shipmates out and to enable them to more fully participate in the kickstarter. The amount gathered could be apportioned based on levels pledged.

[Watchdog]

While that definitely would be nice, Eric, a simpler solution would be to ship from an EU country.

I only pledged for Marine ($65 + $25 postage). If Ares finds a way to ship from, for instance, Italy, I will definitely pledge for Captain ($260 + postage, no customs/taxes at all). Ares currently gets $195 less from me than they could, since the current cost of Captain is $384 for me, $124 of which would go to postage and customs/taxes, not to Ares. I am not willing to spend that much, especially not under such conditions, where almost 1/3 of the money won't support the game at all.

If Ares finds a way to ship from an EU country, the pledges of many EU residents will go a lot higher, helping us reach the goals sooner if not even to reach them at all.

[7eat51]

While that definitely would be nice, Eric, a simpler solution would be to ship from an EU country.

I only pledged for Marine ($65 + $25 postage). If Ares finds a way to ship from, for instance, Italy, I will definitely pledge for Captain ($260 + postage, no customs/taxes at all). Ares currently gets $195 less from me than they could, since the current cost of Captain is $384 for me, $124 of which would go to postage and customs/taxes, not to Ares. I am not willing to spend that much, especially not under such conditions, where almost 1/3 of the money won't support the game at all.

If Ares finds a way to ship from an EU country, the pledges of many EU residents will go a lot higher, helping us reach the goals sooner if not even to reach them at all.

I assumed this wasn't an option given the shipment from a central warehouse in the U.S. Not knowing how such things work, if Ares shipped to a European distributor, would the company have to pay all of the duties, etc.? If so, then it would still have to recoup that cost by passing it on.

[Watchdog]

This is fresh from Kickstarter chat:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1402889231/sails-of-glory-miniatures-ship-combat/comments?cursor=2364947#comment-2364947



Creator Ares Games 14 minutes ago
@anderland - Ares has an OFFICE in Italy. But our business is completely outside Europe. We manufacture in China, then ship to our warehouse in the US (Ft. Wayne, IN). At the moment we do not have ANY logistics outside of the US. As I already told in a previous reply, at least until now a comparison with Zombicide (which has thousands, rather than hundreds, of backers) is not fair, and in any case the Sails of Glory starter set IS big - 40 x 27 x 8.5 cm before shipping packaging. And indidivual ship packs are light. but bulky 10 x 15 x 6 cm - a single ship pack I guess is about as big as the pack of Zombie Dogs of our millionaire friends :). That said, we are actually already taking upon ourselves a chunk of the international freight. But believe me, it's a problem which hurts Ares much more than you, so it's something we definitely want to find a solution for!
Another VERY important note. TAXES. As you know, US prices are BEFORE taxes. Taxes get added afterwards when the parcel clears customs, and sales taxes are minimal or non-existant within the US. If we ship to a customer to Europe from an European location, there's 21% VAT which must be added (or taken) somewhere. I don't know how other companies take care of this tax, but there's no way you can escape from it (except breaking laws, of course!). This means that, assuming we ship a $ 100 reward from a European location to another European location, we should ask the customer $ 21 more to cover VAT - or we must consider we lose $ 18 out of the pledge value (which we might well do of course - if overall we can find a way to offer a good deal to our EU customers, we'll be happy to lose $ 18 and gain a happy customer!)

Hmmm...:confused:

[Watchdog]

Maybe there is some hope for us EU folks: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1402889231/sails-of-glory-miniatures-ship-combat/comments?cursor=2365574#comment-2365574


Creator Ares Games 4 minutes ago
@Watchdog - we'll be happy to get more money from you :) I will go and find a freight solution, but it's unlikely I will be able to do that tonight! Please be patient for a little while.

I think it could help if all people who would pledge more if the USA-EU problem gets solved could post in Kickstarter chat and state this intent, so that the Ares fellow responsible for handling this matter has some solid arguments for the bosses.;)

[David Manley]

I agree. I couldn't believe that the most they asked of individuals was around $250.

Personally I'm glad they did. It shows a degree of realism that seems to be lacking in some Kickstarter projects, or rather a willingness to exploit people through peddling non-sensical "bonusses". One of the ones I saw had people paying through the nose for essentially what could be bought in the shops in a few months plus a "limited edition" 28mm scale tank - for the same price as a very nicely spec'd REAL car!!! Insane! Mind you, hats off to a company that can part fools from their money that easily I guess. But for me it shows some fiscal restraint (amazing for an Italian company :) ) and common sense on the part of Ares in the face of the worldwide economic clusterf**k with which we all have to live these days.

If they want to generate more interest then add reasonably priced extra ships (the Constitution could extend to other ships in the class for example, and a British 1812 frigate would be a handy addition at least) and SORT OUT THE LUDICROUS POSTAGE OUTSIDE THE US!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Diamondback]

Well, adding more Kickstarter Exclusive Variants of the four sculpts already committed would be another stretch... though they shot themselves in the foot with Concordes as the only one left is HMS Courageuse. Temeraires and Slade 74's, though, are a veritable gold mine of reprints, around 100 of the former ALONE being completed.

[RichardPF]

About 16 hours in and Ares is on the verge of the first stretch goal!
Ya know, if everyone who wanted an HMS Victory went ahead and added $20 now, that alone would put it over...

[Diamondback]

And my suggestion above would be very economical to do... no new tooling cost, just researching and developing the pad-printing masks for the paint schemes and printing the unique bits of paper.

[Diamondback]

Come on, guys, if just five more of us kick in the $20 for Victory we'll have it. LOL

[RichardPF]

And there is stretch goal 1! Less than 17 hours in! WOW!
Judging by the six week run they set up, I would guess that this is really blowing the Ares folks away!

[Diamondback]

Yeeah! IF we hit $100K, buying at Captain level... well, I did the math and if we get there you're getting $350 worth of product for $260. I don't know WHAT the standard e-tail discount will be, but if you can swing the cashflow even for EUROPE the Captain package seems very much the way to go. If not, Marine + Mate + $40 gets you the six exclusives and starter, leaving the eight "mass market" singles to mop up as budget allows.

Heck, were I Ares, I would have unlocked additional prints on existing sculpts at the 50 and 75k levels, and made Victory and Old Ironsides higher-level unlocks... or done one or two groups of added reprints, then one of the two added sculpts, then another 1-2 reprint levels, then the other.

Maybe even structured it to add a new pair of variant ships every $10K, then a new other add-on every $25K and a major (ie, higher-cost to produce like a new sculpt) expansion every $50K or $100K. IF things hold at this rate, this could be a half-mil Kickstarter... or if they pick up, move into seven-figures territory. Ares? Heck, I bet Kickstarter themselves are crapping bricks at how fast this one went and is continuing to go!

Spread the word, gents!

[7eat51]

Personally I'm glad they did. It shows a degree of realism that seems to be lacking in some Kickstarter projects, or rather a willingness to exploit people through peddling non-sensical "bonusses". One of the ones I saw had people paying through the nose for essentially what could be bought in the shops in a few months plus a "limited edition" 28mm scale tank - for the same price as a very nicely spec'd REAL car!!! Insane! Mind you, hats off to a company that can part fools from their money that easily I guess. But for me it shows some fiscal restraint (amazing for an Italian company :) ) and common sense on the part of Ares in the face of the worldwide economic clusterf**k with which we all have to live these days.

If they want to generate more interest then add reasonably priced extra ships (the Constitution could extend to other ships in the class for example, and a British 1812 frigate would be a handy addition at least) and SORT OUT THE LUDICROUS POSTAGE OUTSIDE THE US!!!!!!!!!!!!

David, I truly appreciate your position. I posted the kickstarter for the WWII minis with the bizarre bonuses. I, like you, could not believe the pledges it was asking for and the corresponding rewards (if I'm not mistaken, you might have mentioned about the price of one pledge for a tank being equivalent to a Toyota truck - forgive me if I have you confused with another mate). I would not change the current type of pledges Ares offered, but provided additional incentives for those who would want them. For example, for an additional amount, individuals could receive captain/admiral cards, islands, etc. None of these would have to be outrageous in terms of increased amounts. It simply provides those who desire options for increased investment and support of the game. I started playing WGF a couple of months ago; since then, I have invested quite a bit building up a collection of minis. With the kickstarter, I would have done the same, but it would have provided Ares with the cash up front to fund production. I will eventually buy extra stuff anyway.

[The Royal Hajj]

There are plans for both optional add on and free bonuses at the different tier levels. I'm working with them on a couple of them. These will be announced and shown through out the campaign. When is really up to how quick we can get the details sorted out and concept artwork or actual production photos ready. I can tell you that a KS campaign for Sails have been mentioned and "pushed" towards Ares for about 2 years now. Initially they were opposed to this type of project, mostly I suspect, from not having experience with it.

Now that it has started and funded so well within the first day, there is a little bit of scrambling to get back ahead of the curve. So, for those of you with more money to offer, hang on to it just a little longer for us ;)

[7eat51]

Given the amount of time left for the kickstarter, I suggest we post any creative ideas to the comment section on the kickstarter. This way, if Ares sees them the company might consider incorporating them. Personally, I would love to see quite a few add ons with different options.

[The Royal Hajj]

On the subject of KS projects parting fool of there money, if I have it to spend and want to spend it that way, how is that foolish? I think Ares hit the pledge level/rewards just right. You really do get what you pay for, but there is nothing wrong with offering outrageous items for people with outrageous budgets. Just think of all the people that buy exotic cars... we don't label them as fools (well, until they wrap the car around tree. lol).

[The Royal Hajj]

Given the amount of time left for the kickstarter, I suggest we post any creative ideas to the comment section on the kickstarter. This way, if Ares sees them the company might consider incorporating them. Personally, I would love to see quite a few add ons with different options.

Be sure to post them here as well as I have direct two way communication the decision makers and they are very interested in what the Anchorage members have to say.

[7eat51]

There are plans for both optional add on and free bonuses at the different tier levels. I'm working with them on a couple of them. These will be announced and shown through out the campaign. When is really up to how quick we can get the details sorted out and concept artwork or actual production photos ready. I can tell you that a KS campaign for Sails have been mentioned and "pushed" towards Ares for about 2 years now. Initially they were opposed to this type of project, mostly I suspect, from not having experience with it.

Now that it has started and funded so well within the first day, there is a little bit of scrambling to get back ahead of the curve. So, for those of you with more money to offer, hang on to it just a little longer for us ;)

Thank you for your effort on behalf of this community.


On the subject of KS projects parting fool of there money, if I have it to spend and want to spend it that way, how is that foolish? I think Ares hit the pledge level/rewards just right. You really do get what you pay for, but there is nothing wrong with offering outrageous items for people with outrageous budgets. Just think of all the people that buy exotic cars... we don't label them as fools (well, until they wrap the car around tree. lol).

I need to think on this more. As a pretty strong free-market capitalist and subscriber to the Austrian school of economics, I am in agreement with you. However, when I saw the aforementioned kickstarter with a $10k pledge and tank mini reward, something didn't quite sit right.

[7eat51]

Be sure to post them here as well as I have direct two way communication the decision makers and they are very interested in what the Anchorage members have to say.

By all means. One never knows when a comment could springboard something wonderful. Besides, conversations here is what builds up this community.

[The Royal Hajj]

I need to think on this more. As a pretty strong free-market capitalist and subscriber to the Austrian school of economics, I am in agreement with you. However, when I saw the aforementioned kickstarter with a $10k pledge and tank mini reward, something didn't quite sit right.

I too personally think $10k is silly for a tank mini... but then so is some of the "we'll come teach you the game" rewards for that kind of cash. For people pledging those kinds of funds for such small rewards, it's not even about the reward its self. It's about the fact that they can spend that kind of cash on something so pointless (from a value standing), or it's just about supporting the cause. If I was a millionaire and Ares had $10k pledge, I'd do it just to support them. After all, I'd drop that $10k on some other pointless item during the year... be it a car, a boat, or a freak'n trip to outer space! lol

When I was in to modifying cars heavily, we called those people "ballars". And in some cases I was one of them with a few of my parts. I could have bought a cheaper part that did basically the same thing, but I wanted the one that would also give me the "ohhs" and "ahhs" when people saw or heard about it.

[RichardPF]

I believe that there is a lot of overlap between the SoG and WoG crowds. I understand that tooling up for additional ships in a timely manner to use them as pledge rewards may not be possible, but how about some of the new planes in the pipeline for this year?
Like everything else in as free a marketplace as this is, potential subscribers are Free to Choose to participate at these levels or not. If inventory for these products already resides in the eu, perhaps that might help molify the grumbling as well.

[The Royal Hajj]

Oh, and back on topic, here have been my suggestions to them so far:


More ships (of course!)
A different terrain pack as an add on
possible 3d terrain
Some other things I'll be doing for Ares that I can't say right now... but think of my AA product line and you could figure it out ;)
First expansions to the game, like fortification rules and cutting out rules.

[7eat51]

Shore parties.
Some form of caddy for cards.
Foam storage.

[The Royal Hajj]

I believe that there is a lot of overlap between the SoG and WoG crowds. I understand that tooling up for additional ships in a timely manner to use them as pledge rewards may not be possible, but how about some of the new planes in the pipeline for this year?
Like everything else in as free a marketplace as this is, potential subscribers are Free to Choose to participate at these levels or not. If inventory for these products already resides in the eu, perhaps that might help molify the grumbling as well.

I don't think they want to mix the two games. While a lot of us are Wings players, I actually think we are going to end up as about 40% of the actual long term market for this game. The naval genera in general is much larger then the flyboy genera.

Another thing they have to think about is market saturation. If they end up making lots of ship model through the KS, they can't really make them all available at once on the open market. There is only so much the LGS can afford to have on their shelves and only so much someone not part of the KS can spend on the game at one time. Having all that product sitting around is bad for the games reputation. Now, they could sit on those molds and not produce any beyond what they need for the KS folks, but then the delay in ships getting to the LGS is longer then it should be... leading to the perception of a dead or barley living game.

There are so many little and behind teh scenes things we don't think of right way. Like can the company the use to manufacturer the actual miniatures deal with that many different ships and planes at the same time?

[The Royal Hajj]

Some form of caddy for cards.
Foam storage.

Those will most likely fall to the accessories guys like me ;)

[7eat51]

Those will most likely fall to the accessories guys like me ;)

Any chance of a shirt? The WGF ones are great.

[Jack Aubrey]

Any chance of a shirt? The WGF ones are great.

They must be great , or should I say big or large...:cool:

[RichardPF]

For those who might be interested, an early bird captain just opened up (not me, I just noticed it)

[RichardPF]

UPDATE 3

We reviewed the problem of shipping costs to our Canadian backers and we are able to offer the following solution.

If you live in Canada, you need to add:

$ 7 instead of $ 15 for "Gunner" rewards;
$ 12 instead of $ 25 for "Marine" rewards;
$ 25 instead of $ 50 for "Lieutenant" rewards;
$ 30 instead of $ 60 for "Captain" rewards".
If you are a Canadian retailer, you can also pledge for "Admiral of the Fleet" with a $ 50 shipping cost.
Kickstarter only recognizes "US" or "Not in the US", so when you pledge you must click the "I am in the USA" link at the bottom of the page, to trick the system into thinking it's a domestic shipment; then add the indicated amount for the freight cost to your normal pledge.

[Sea Gull]

Shirts would be good. SoG Backer or some such. :cool:

[Cpt Kangaroo]

I for one am as happy as a clam in a mud bank at ebbtide....

The game is finally progressing, and that in itself is reason to celebrate.

I signed up for the Captain level, and although I missed the early bird, the long term value is excellent. I would strongly urge you to do so if you can swing it.

Consider this question. Will you eventually purchase every ship available? If the answer is yes, then go for it!

I feel badly for the EU members and the additional they have to pay. I have been there with similar considerations in Australia. I wish I had some advice for you. I hope a work around is found.

My next step is to network my friends to get active and to participate, I know if they find out later and missed out, I am going to be in a lot of trouble. :)

[Sea Gull]

I feel badly for the EU members and the additional they have to pay. I have been there with similar considerations in Australia. I wish I had some advice for you. I hope a work around is found.



Given that the box sets is weighing in at a whopping 3 kilo I'm not sure what can be done regarding the delivery cost. At some point Ares will end up losing maybe too much money on each EU order shipped, thereby putting further plans in jeopardy. To be honest the cost of the shipping isn't really the issue for me, it's the shipping plus the custom duties. If it costs $60 to send by airmail from the US to NL, then I can't argue with that. The €xx I'll have to pay in custom fees/VAT is something I don't like at all. Again, I don't know if there's anything that can be done about that, apart from having it despatched from an EU location.

[Diamondback]

I need to think on this more. As a pretty strong free-market capitalist and subscriber to the Austrian school of economics, I am in agreement with you. However, when I saw the aforementioned kickstarter with a $10k pledge and tank mini reward, something didn't quite sit right.
Another fan of Von Mises, huh? (Actually, I'm more a Friedman-ite, but Von Mises and Hayek are both closely related philosophically.) Think of the higher price-points as "market segmentation"... the ones willing to pay the most for something to get it earlier act as "beta testers" and help subsidize the costs to move right along the Price - Quantity curve. I may consider the first few willing to go that far before getting enough Quantity together to immediately knock Price down a tad foolish, but if somebody with deep pockets truly wants to throw down that much... well, like I said, at that point create a handful of special Numbered Limited Edition autographed complete sets including the Exclusives and all the stretch-goals met at Kickstarter completion, have Andrea sign and hand-number 'em and let 'em have at it with the Bragging Rights about getting the first ten or 100 copies or whatever. :)

[The Royal Hajj]

They come up with a possible solution... it's not going to work for everyone (if they can finalize it even), but it might help some.

[David Manley]

well, like I said, at that point create a handful of special Numbered Limited Edition autographed complete sets including the Exclusives and all the stretch-goals met at Kickstarter completion, have Andrea sign and hand-number 'em and let 'em have at it with the Bragging Rights about getting the first ten or 100 copies or whatever. :)

reminds me of a line in "The Mysterious Punch Up the Conker" episode of the Goon Show:

"Send ten shilling postal order for free receipt." :)

[Blackrose]

There are plans for both optional add on and free bonuses at the different tier levels. I'm working with them on a couple of them. These will be announced and shown through out the campaign. When is really up to how quick we can get the details sorted out and concept artwork or actual production photos ready. I can tell you that a KS campaign for Sails have been mentioned and "pushed" towards Ares for about 2 years now. Initially they were opposed to this type of project, mostly I suspect, from not having experience with it.

Now that it has started and funded so well within the first day, there is a little bit of scrambling to get back ahead of the curve. So, for those of you with more money to offer, hang on to it just a little longer for us ;)

By this are you saying wait for more incentives to be offered?
karl

[7eat51]

Another fan of Von Mises, huh? (Actually, I'm more a Friedman-ite, but Von Mises and Hayek are both closely related philosophically.

Hard to go wrong with Uncle Milt. All three have done us great service.


By this are you saying wait for more incentives to be offered? karl

The more stretch goals we see, the more willing we'll be to kick in ahead of time to ensure they're reached.

[The Royal Hajj]

By this are you saying wait for more incentives to be offered?
karl

I'm saying as time goes on, more things will open up. You should pledge now to ensure those things do open up. By pledging now, you will not miss out on any future offerings.

[RichardPF]

So I have been noticing that if you add up the backers at each level it does not come up to the same total as the total backers shown at the top of the screen.
At this moment the total at the top shows 437 but if you add the individual levels you get 431.
This has actually been drifting off like this through the entire run.
Anyone have any idea why?
I doubt that Kickstarter is converting extra $ above pledge rewards for the stretch goals or whatever into additional backers.

[Watchdog]

Is it perhaps possible to back without selecting any pledge tier, just by pledging a sum of money?

[Blackrose]

I'm saying as time goes on, more things will open up. You should pledge now to ensure those things do open up. By pledging now, you will not miss out on any future offerings.

OK; good thing I added a Victory and 3 Constitutions, then.
Karl

[Blackrose]

Is it perhaps possible to back without selecting any pledge tier, just by pledging a sum of money?

That is correct.
Karl

[The Royal Hajj]

So I have been noticing that if you add up the backers at each level it does not come up to the same total as the total backers shown at the top of the screen.
At this moment the total at the top shows 437 but if you add the individual levels you get 431.
This has actually been drifting off like this through the entire run.
Anyone have any idea why?
I doubt that Kickstarter is converting extra $ above pledge rewards for the stretch goals or whatever into additional backers.

Also, the auto refresh KS uses for the pages does not always refresh all the stats at the same time. I made the first pledge of the campaign when we were still talking on the phone and activated the project. From my end, it showed my pledge on the page, from his, it did not, but he could see that the funding total had risen. He had to force a manual refresh to see both the pledge and the funding total.

[Old Ironsides]

I for one look forward to seeing what future streach goals might contain. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that they have already far exceeded what they thought would happen espeically this fast. I predict by the end of the weekend they will blow through the $110K.

I picture a couple of guys sitting around a white board...."What can we do next?" :)

[The Royal Hajj]

I picture a couple of guys sitting around a white board...."What can we do next?" :)

It's more like a white board and several screens from around the world :D

As for future stretches, they have me working on at least two other options right now ;)

[Sea Gull]

Make them good ones then ! :D

[Diamondback]

Do we know anything about the mats? If they're open-ocean and not "specific coastline" I might pledge for a second once we hit 100K. (The Beancounters give me one $400 "no questions asked" project per year, so I've declared SGN to be it in lieu of the usual now-dead Axis & Allies War at Sea quad-case.)

[The Royal Hajj]

The only thing I've heard about the mats is that they are the same size as the Wings ones. Some of the photos they have shown do show artwork in the same style as the Wings mats, so that might give us an indication of what these will look like.

[7eat51]

The only thing I've heard about the mats is that they are the same size as the Wings ones. Some of the photos they have shown do show artwork in the same style as the Wings mats, so that might give us an indication of what these will look like.

I imagine that these mats could be used with Wings as well, at least open seas ones given no scale differences to contend with.

Are you able to find out if there will be different mats like Wings, and if so, which one(s) will be offered as the stretch goal reward?

[The Royal Hajj]

I'll see if I can find anything out.

[David Manley]

The voice of heresy here from Gloucestershire on the subject of mats. I can see why people are getting excited at the idea of mats with coastlines that may or may not mate with the Wings of Glory ones. But I'd suggest open ocean mats are the way to go and them arrange a tie in with a manufacturer of 3D terrain pieces for coastline pieces. Fixed terrain on a mat becomes very "samey", whereas terrain pieces give you almost infinite variability. Also (and possibly more important) they are FAR more attractive with the models. In the past I have used card templates for land and islands - they look OK, bit not wonderful, but get some nice carved expanded polystyrene coastline, cliffs and islands and it all looks a million times better.

[Sea Gull]

That doesn't sound heretical to be honest. The visual appeal of the game is enhance when any scenery is in 3D like the models.

[Horatio]

The only thing I've heard about the mats is that they are the same size as the Wings ones. Some of the photos they have shown do show artwork in the same style as the Wings mats, so that might give us an indication of what these will look like.

That's good news about the size, the only pictures I have seen looked like the Wings of War Coast Mat.

I agree with DM that a Sea mat with add on shoal, island or coast elements would give infinitely more variety to games.

[Diamondback]

Anybody wanna place bets about when we'll hit next Stretch Goal? At the current rate of pledges, if it holds it looks like we might get a new stretch met every day or day-and-a-half to two days... though I think almost everything so far has been the massive head of steam from us longtime watchers with itchy trigger-fingers and some of us are starting to tap out. (Once the total for addons plus pledge goes above $400, I plan to make a case to my relatives to overrule the accountants even if it means having to take out a loan...)

[Berthier]

The other possible option with the mats is to go the WSIM and Ironclads way where various colours are used to designate shoals, coastlines, rivers etc and the scenario instructions will dictate which coloured boundaries are in use for each game.
2314

[RichardPF]

Anybody wanna place bets about when we'll hit next Stretch Goal? At the current rate of pledges, if it holds it looks like we might get a new stretch met every day or day-and-a-half to two days... though I think almost everything so far has been the massive head of steam from us longtime watchers with itchy trigger-fingers and some of us are starting to tap out. (Once the total for addons plus pledge goes above $400, I plan to make a case to my relatives to overrule the accountants even if it means having to take out a loan...)

The days to go counter seems to click over about the same time of day as the Kickstarter lists as the end time. In Arizona, that is 2 PM (Arizona is on Mountain Time and does not do daylight savings time). The project actually went live here about 1AM on the 5th. Using that as the clickover time, the project looks to have gotten a bit over $57,000 the first day and about $15,000 each of the next two days. Counting days this way the third day total was about the same as the second but the total was made with fewer new backers (no doubt some came from $20 add ons). Based on all that, my guess as to the time the project hits $100,000 is 3AM MST Saturday morning.

[Diamondback]

And by that logic next goal after that about 16 hours later, if my math's right...

[RichardPF]

And by that logic next goal after that about 16 hours later, if my math's right...

If the rate holds that would be about right. It will be interesting to see if the rate drops off any over time. My guess is that it may actually pick up a bit of steam over the weekend and not taper off any until Monday. I'm sure that the Kickstarter folks have all kinds of trend charts on this stuff but probably keep it close to the vest (or think that few people are geeky enough to be interested).

[7eat51]

If the rate holds that would be about right. It will be interesting to see if the rate drops off any over time. My guess is that it may actually pick up a bit of steam over the weekend and not taper off any until Monday. I'm sure that the Kickstarter folks have all kinds of trend charts on this stuff but probably keep it close to the vest (or think that few people are geeky enough to be interested).

It also depends upon the nature of future add-ons. After the mats, the next stretch is the attitude indicator. Even if there were 1,000 backers all kicking in $5 for it, only $5,000 would be raised. The new early bird commodore will increase ~$10,000, and if that opens the previously held ranks, another $10,000 or so. The only way I see this really moving forward is if there are a bunch of folks sitting on the fence who jump in, or if a lot more ships are offered. I am glad that Ares hit their original goal, but I wonder how high the end number will actually reach.

[The Royal Hajj]

As much as I wish it was, this is not an exceptional campaign in terms of the KS norm. Just like all campaigns, we have a huge spike at the onset of the project that will be followed with a slump that last the majority of the rest of the campaign. Then we will get a nice peak towards the end when everyone starts picking up the extra add ons or trying to reach that next stretch goal which is pretty close.

The additional stretch goals they give us will decide how big of a slump we go into during the middle weeks. I personally would have like to see them put the Attitude Indicator as an $85k stretch goal. It would have given us a small, relativity easy goal to meet... but would have put us that much closer to the $100k goal.

We are working on things to add to the Captian level for free if future stretch goals are made. Once we hit the $100k mark and the Capt level gets the free gaming mat and if the other goals are made to give the Capt the other freebees, I expect we will see some of the lower pledged players upgrading to the Capt level as it becomes a much better deal.

[The Royal Hajj]

Oh, and for those of you interested in the stats and trending forecast for this campaign, check out Kicktraq (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1402889231/sails-of-glory-miniatures-ship-combat/).

[7eat51]

We are working on things to add to the Captian level for free if future stretch goals are made. Once we hit the $100k mark and the Capt level gets the free gaming mat and if the other goals are made to give the Capt the other freebees, I expect we will see some of the lower pledged players upgrading to the Capt level as it becomes a much better deal.

Agreed. Additionally, from a marketing perspective, choosing the captain level has better potential for buy-in concerning later releases. Folks will already have invested more, and by having more ships, will likely find switching to another line less attractive. If an individual only has a couple of ships, switching costs are far less and switching more probable. Ares should ensure it is thinking about lifetime value, and not maximizing profit on the kickstarter.

[7eat51]

Oh, and for those of you interested in the stats and trending forecast for this campaign, check out Kicktraq (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1402889231/sails-of-glory-miniatures-ship-combat/).

No offense, but I find the trending toward amount unlikely. If it is based on trend-line forecasting, it is fairly unreliable for a couple of reasons - few data points, lack of qualitative measure input such as marketing metrics based knowledge of marketspace, lack of reason to believe historical behavior of given event is similar to future behavior (this is especially true given early bird options), etc.

[The Royal Hajj]

Yes, the trending toward amount is not likely to happen. They even have a whole page discussing this linked right from that chart.

[7eat51]

Yes, the trending toward amount is not likely to happen. They even have a whole page discussing this linked right from that chart.

Ah, I didn't see this. I think I just found it if it is the page linked from the box with the trending toward amount. Interesting phrasing, "Why you should take Kicktraq trends with a grain of salt". Thanks.

[RichardPF]

It looks like that Kicktraq trend forcast just takes the average daily total to that point and more or less multiplies it out over the length of the campaign. I would imagine that the actual trend looks something like the graph of a logarithmic function like f(t) = log (t + 1) where t is the number of days that the campaign has been going. (To see what this function looks like, you can google f(x) = log x and then just look at the portion to the right of X = 1). This is not a function with a horixontal asymptote but close to it. I would also expect that there are predictable day of the week and holiday fluctuations to that projection that could be made if someone had access to the actual day by day totals of all of the projects that have been offered on Kickstarter.

[RichardPF]

It will be interesting to see how quickly the early bird commodore spaces do fill.
It might be reasonable for Ares to offer at least a bit of volume discount to the non-early bird eligible commodores below the 2 x 260 that was mentioned, though the better shipping rate is a significant deal in itself.
If we go by US Naval officer ranks (since this is a US based campaign) might we might also see Rear Admiral (lower and upper half), Vice Admiral, Admiral, and then above Fleet Admiral, Admiral of the Navy levels?
I wonder what impact all this is having on the discussions for the second Ares Kickstarter that begins when this one ends?
Is there an active community for that game now?
OK enough questions for the moment...

[7eat51]

For those who upgrade, will their previous slots open up, including the early bird slots?

I imagine the commodore level will push the pledge amount past the $100,000 mark in short order, especially given double the mats.

[SeaRoyal20]

Yes the lower slots do open when you upgrade. But I was suprised that there was no a rush at Noon when the change was posted. I was either the first or second one to upgrade to EB Commadore. That was 90 minutes ago and we are only up to 8 at that level. The up side is we will hit 100K today and more stretch goals may get added over the weekend.

[7eat51]

Yes the lower slots do open when you upgrade. But I was suprised that there was no a rush at Noon when the change was posted. I was either the first or second one to upgrade to EB Commadore. That was 90 minutes ago and we are only up to 8 at that level. The up side is we will hit 100K today and more stretch goals may get added over the weekend.

I almost commented upon the slow rate of adoption as well, but thought I might have missed something like the exact time it went live. Given the lead-time as to the commodore level with limited early bird slots, I thought they would have been taken well within an hour. It is after work for Europeans, and late enough for west coast U.S. Makes one wonder.

[Sea Gull]

I'm not sure how many Europeans would take up the commodore level. Two of everything for the same shipping sounds great. Yet you're also increasing the value of the package that will be subject to customs and VAT.

From my point of view $60 shipping for a 3kg package at a value of $250 is reasonable. I've seen some shipping charges from the US be double the value of the item to be purchsaed. Add the shipping costs, $60 and I now have $310. This, I assume, is what customs will base any charges on which will include the VAT at a very reasonable 21%. Now if I went commodore level, that's now a $540 value, so my VAT and custom fees just went up too. So I'd save $60 shipping, but expect to pay and somewhere between $50-70 extra in customs fee and VAT. Unless there's something I'm missing with the whole import/custom/VAT thing.

The only thing that can make it cheaper for me, is if the exchange rate on the day I have to pay is soooooo advantageous to me that it works out at somewhere around €100. If that's the case I'll also expect to win every lottery around the world at the same time. :rolleyes:

So that's why I'm sticking with Captain and the extras. I'll pay the pledge when the project closes and then take the hit when the product ships. I think it'll be worth the wait, and the cost. Just so long as SWMBO doesn't find out. :D

[fast.git]

I am curious about something... what is the advantage for someone in the US to jump up to Commodore level? Sure, you get another map, and another wind gauge-thing... but I've already got free shipping and won't save there. Sure, more ships would be great but, unlike WGF, these are named vessels. The bases and cards appear to identify the specific ship by name...

Apologies if I'm missing the obvious.

Thanks.

[7eat51]

I'm not sure how many Europeans would take up the commodore level. Two of everything for the same shipping sounds great. Yet you're also increasing the value of the package that will be subject to customs and VAT.

From my point of view $60 shipping for a 3kg package at a value of $250 is reasonable. I've seen some shipping charges from the US be double the value of the item to be purchsaed. Add the shipping costs, $60 and I now have $310. This, I assume, is what customs will base any charges on which will include the VAT at a very reasonable 21%. Now if I went commodore level, that's now a $540 value, so my VAT and custom fees just went up too. So I'd save $60 shipping, but expect to pay and somewhere between $50-70 extra in customs fee and VAT. Unless there's something I'm missing with the whole import/custom/VAT thing.

The only thing that can make it cheaper for me, is if the exchange rate on the day I have to pay is soooooo advantageous to me that it works out at somewhere around €100. If that's the case I'll also expect to win every lottery around the world at the same time. :rolleyes:

So that's why I'm sticking with Captain and the extras. I'll pay the pledge when the project closes and then take the hit when the product ships. I think it'll be worth the wait, and the cost. Just so long as SWMBO doesn't find out. :D

The upgrade seems to make sense if someone would have subsequently ordered an additional set of everything at a later time; there would be some savings on shipping. I don't know how true that will be of folks. Unless I plan on doing a lot of repainting, I don't think I would like two of each ship. Some folks have already expressed their interest in such a thing, though.


I am curious about something... what is the advantage for someone in the US to jump up to Commodore level? Sure, you get another map, and another wind gauge-thing... but I've already got free shipping and won't save there. Sure, more ships would be great but, unlike WGF, these are named vessels. The bases and cards appear to identify the specific ship by name...

Apologies if I'm missing the obvious.

Thanks.

Outside of an additional mat or other future stretch goals, I could not figure out why as well. Besides, I thought this was offered as a partial solution for our overseas mates, so I did not jump in. I acknowledge I might be missing something as well.

[SeaRoyal20]

Well ship cards and ships can be modified. There is breakage and any failed experiment. Add in trading later on. More mats are needed. I use three or four mats typically for WoG but Sog could get trickier when you start adding land masses and have to sail around various points. I may also rebuld some ships into at anchor. One never knows. Finally most wargamers almost always buy more than they need or can ever paint! Admitting your problem is the first step to recovery but I don't want to recover!

[David Manley]

I'm not sure how many Europeans would take up the commodore level. Two of everything for the same shipping sounds great. Yet you're also increasing the value of the package that will be subject to customs and VAT.

Is there a chance that Ares will ever put measures in place to serve their home audience I wonder?

[Horatio]

Is there a chance that Ares will ever put measures in place to serve their home audience I wonder?

O'h look a flying pig.

[Sea Gull]

Duck, it's a whole herd of them. :)

[RichardPF]

I am curious about something... what is the advantage for someone in the US to jump up to Commodore level? Sure, you get another map, and another wind gauge-thing... but I've already got free shipping and won't save there. Sure, more ships would be great but, unlike WGF, these are named vessels. The bases and cards appear to identify the specific ship by name...

Apologies if I'm missing the obvious.

Thanks.

Three reasons:
1) It helps Ares
2) It helps the community
3) I consider it my Christmas shopping!

[The Royal Hajj]

The Commodore level was designed to allow two players to join forces and but it together. IF two people split the cost of the goods and the VAT, there is no increased cost to each of them, just the shipping in savings.

As for US players buying the Commodore level, I would suggest that they not do so (especially the EB version). If you want what is essentially two sets of the Capt level, simply double your pledge amount and send a note saying you want two of them. This gets you exactly what you want and does not take up one of our Euro sailor's special deal slot.

[Diamondback]

Still, I wouldn't consider a half-mil final total implausible... quarter more likely, but that's still nothing to sneeze at and gives LOTS of room for new stretch goals.

[Berthier]

Slower uptake of commodore may be to do with the price shock. $480 +shipping is a lot of gaming money to invest in a system I haven't seen in the flesh and have no reviews or rules set to go through. That's a big leap of faith and as more stretch levels get reached there may be more investments to be had like the Victory and Constitution all of which add more $ (yes I know some of the stretch levels are free bonuses). I rarely think twice about spending money on my gaming, tending to sell off items I dont need any more and buy newer items but I'm still at heart a collector and I've decided to pause till the latter stages of the capital raising to see the final offers.

[7eat51]

Slower uptake of commodore may be to do with the price shock. $480 +shipping is a lot of gaming money to invest in a system I haven't seen in the flesh and have no reviews or rules set to go through. That's a big leap of faith and as more stretch levels get reached there may be more investments to be had like the Victory and Constitution all of which add more $ (yes I know some of the stretch levels are free bonuses). I rarely think twice about spending money on my gaming, tending to sell off items I dont need any more and buy newer items but I'm still at heart a collector and I've decided to pause till the latter stages of the capital raising to see the final offers.

For an individual, I think this is a very fair statement. If two folks go in together, as The Royal Hajj suggests, it would lower costs, assuming both would be in at the captain's level regardless.

As a newbie to WGF, if they did a kickstarter, I wouldn't sleep until it went live, and then I would buy until my wife shut down our internet; but this is because I am already a player and have seen the game, as you say, in the flesh.

[Horatio]

$100,662 now pledged.
The mats are now covered.

[The Royal Hajj]

(yes I know some of the stretch levels are free bonuses).

And we are now getting into the area of the campaign were more of those are going to come out. The next two stretch goals, $110k and $125k, are both free bonuses... and both produced by me :D

[Diamondback]

Cool! You sizing 'em so they can just drop into the starter box in place of the originals, I hope? :)

Edit: holy crap, I got butter-bars already? LOL

[The Royal Hajj]

The Attitude Indicator will assemble and disassemble similar to the Damage Deck Caddy... but much simpler of course. The rulers will be the same size as the originals, so they will fit with out issue as well.

[7eat51]

And we are now getting into the area of the campaign were more of those are going to come out. The next two stretch goals, $110k and $125k, are both free bonuses... and both produced by me :D

Wonderful. Thanks for your work to make this a better game. It is truly appreciated.

[Sea Gull]

Same goes for me. You've done a grand job of getting a community organised so that our voice can be heard by the game designers and manufacturer.
Thanks Keith for the hard work.

Cheers
Chris

[The Royal Hajj]

You are welcome guys... it's all part of the fun. But once this site really sets sail with the actual launching of the game, I'm not sure how I'm going to keep up with it and the Aerodrome. And when it comes to sailing, I'm a real landsman!

[Sea Gull]

Only $3,004 for the next stretch goal.

It was interesting to read the official comment on the KS project that to ship a specific container to EU would require 3,000 backers, 1,000 of whoom would need ot be located in the EU. Roberto said that would be at around the $400K funding level. We'll just have to see. I mean I'm in this anyway, but it would be nice for those who are sitting on the fence at the moment because of the shipping and customs/VAT costs to be given a bit of good news that may bring them in. Purely selfish on my part, I may find someone else to play the game with. :o

[RichardPF]

Only $3,004 for the next stretch goal.

It was interesting to read the official comment on the KS project that to ship a specific container to EU would require 3,000 backers, 1,000 of whoom would need ot be located in the EU. Roberto said that would be at around the $400K funding level. We'll just have to see. I mean I'm in this anyway, but it would be nice for those who are sitting on the fence at the moment because of the shipping and customs/VAT costs to be given a bit of good news that may bring them in. Purely selfish on my part, I may find someone else to play the game with. :o

I was surprised by the 1000/3000 comment as well but maybe for a different reason.

I had guessed that the probable customer distribution for these products was something similar to the thread/post distribution in the Report For Duty section of the Wings of Glory Aerodrome site

Link (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/forum.php)

Which would have indicated a higher eu participation rate; perhaps 50% or more.

[RichardPF]

And it's over $110,000!!!

[RichardPF]

And there are still only 22 EB Commodores

[SeaRoyal20]

And I have not even done my add ons yet!

[Diamondback]

I asked re maps...

Question:

Couple questions on the mats:
1. Are they going to be "open sea", or have a coastline on one or more corners or along one side?
2. Is there only going to be one design?
Why I ask is, if there are multiple mats planned (or if it's open sea with no preprinted land) I might consider pledging for an extra. :)

Answer:

at the moment we are prepared to release one with open sea, but it's possible we'll do more in the future, just like we do with Wings of Glory.
There will be terrain overlays to add coast and islands at the moment.

Refresh my memory--two attitude indicators in the starter or just one?

[Diamondback]

UPDATE: $110K cracked, "Weathervanes for Everyone!" LOL $12,100 to go for rulers... y'all better start comin' up with some more stretch goals awful fast. :D

[The Royal Hajj]

Well, they have me working on another one already and I knew they have others lined up as well.

[7eat51]

Well, they have me working on another one already and I knew they have others lined up as well.

Deck caddies or the equivalent of cockpits? Captain or admiral cards? Shore installations or shore parties?

At this stage, I imagine most anything will be welcome.

[Sea Gull]

I find it amazing that of 532 backers only 1 has gone for the French gunner.

[Sea Gull]

The next stretch goal is announced. Terrain pack #1. Looking good so far, I wonder how many they initially planned on having.

[Watchdog]

And there are still only 22 EB Commodores

That is because the (EB) Commodore, while definitely a nice gesture from Ares, actually does not solve much at all. The 30$ discount on the postage and the discount on the cost is nice, but still, multiply the sum (package + add-ons + postage) by 1.20 to get the total we EU residents have to pay after the customs officers hit us with VAT.

Still bloody awful compared to what you USA residents have to pay. And it gets worse with each and every add-on.

[Lugburz]

Question for the sake of clarity — As of this post, the Captain level nets you:

• 4 Exclusive KS-only ship packs
• 1 starter set (4 ships, counters, etc)
• 8 non-exclusive ship packs
• Attitude Marker (wood)
• Ruler (wood)
• Game mat
• Terrain pack

So that's 16 ships total, plus other goodies. Is that correct? I'm still deliberating if I physically have enough money to upgrade to the $260 captain level (from my Early Bird Lieutenant), but it seems like if the inventory above is true, the Captain level is the best deal (early bird or not)

[SeaRoyal20]

Yes I think Captains level is the right one for a serious player. For me Commadore is better!

[SeaRoyal20]

Just my opinion but I think we need something a bit more spectacular for the next stretch goal. Two items made of MDF and then some card board 2D terrain makes me think the best is yet to come - hopefully. This is especially true if your believe the tracker ($700K).

[RichardPF]

Question for the sake of clarity — As of this post, the Captain level nets you:

• 4 Exclusive KS-only ship packs
• 1 starter set (4 ships, counters, etc)
• 8 non-exclusive ship packs
• Attitude Marker (wood)
• Ruler (wood)
• Game mat
• Terrain pack

So that's 16 ships total, plus other goodies. Is that correct? I'm still deliberating if I physically have enough money to upgrade to the $260 captain level (from my Early Bird Lieutenant), but it seems like if the inventory above is true, the Captain level is the best deal (early bird or not)

While this is likely to be a moot point. I believe that at this moment we are still just short of the target for the inclusion of the Ruler and about 16K short of the target for the Terrain Pack. Other than that I believe that you are correct.

[RichardPF]

... I'm still deliberating if I physically have enough money to upgrade to the $260 captain level (from my Early Bird Lieutenant), but it seems like if the inventory above is true, the Captain level is the best deal (early bird or not)

I have actually been data scraping from the KS site quite a bit and, as time goes by, I am seeing a lot of situations where for example, during a one or two minute period the count at a lower pledge level goes down 1 while the count at a higher level goes up 1.

While it is not possible from the outside to track individuals to know what is happening for sure, it does appear that there is quite a bit of pledge upgrading of that nature going on.

[RichardPF]

Just my opinion but I think we need something a bit more spectacular for the next stretch goal. Two items made of MDF and then some card board 2D terrain makes me think the best is yet to come - hopefully. This is especially true if your believe the tracker ($700K).

Spectacular new stretch goals would be great and I agree that it will take something like that to hit a total in the ballpark of 700K.

Ares might be in a bit of an exciting and scary position here.

I believe that this is Ares first experience with Kickstarter and as such they really had no way of knowing exactly what to expect from it.
No doubt hitting 400% of their project goal in the first week is well beyond anything that they might have expected.
The fact that the Kickstarter project timeframe was set at 6 weeks might indicate this as well.

Creating high value stretch rewards to fill the remaining time and maintain excitment could be quite a challenge for them.
The fact that the HMS Victory and USS Constitution are not slotted to be available until Jan '14ish would indicate to me that finding sufficient production bandwidth for additional products in a reasonable timeframe may be a challenge as well.

[Sea Gull]

It's a pity they couldn't have started production once the funding was met, of course tey don't really have the money at that point and things could change ... but this is worse than waiting for your holiday to come round. :rolleyes:

If they really want to push this KS then, as you say, they'll need to come up with some special stretch goals. Maybe foam harbours, similar to the foam hangers for the WoG planes to protect the miniatures may be an interim goal that could be out-sourced to a third party.

[RichardPF]

It's a pity they couldn't have started production once the funding was met, of course tey don't really have the money at that point and things could change ... but this is worse than waiting for your holiday to come round. :rolleyes:

If they really want to push this KS then, as you say, they'll need to come up with some special stretch goals. Maybe foam harbours, similar to the foam hangers for the WoG planes to protect the miniatures may be an interim goal that could be out-sourced to a third party.

I think that the trick would be to come up with a supplier that they can trust to supply a quality item in a reasonable time frame at a locked in price and do this all at warp speed so that it can be announced on the KS page without risk of not being able to deliver. My guess is that one of their first goals was to minimize the shipping cost push back by adding products that could be included at no cost to at least the higher pledge levels without breaking the bank on overall cost and profitability. Shipping costs and taxes are what they are and in a competitive marketplace I am not surprised that there were no magic solutions to that issue. The clear plastic hangars available from Keith would seem a natural line extension. That type of enclosure is a standard deal for a ship model; even more so than an aircraft. Most likely Keith has been working on this already.

[RichardPF]

The total hit $125,000 and then dropped back under. Should be back there soon now though...

[Lugburz]

Captain, permission to issue the men an extra rum ration, with a wedge of lime?

Huzzah!

[RichardPF]

Captain, permission to issue the men an extra rum ration, with a wedge of lime?

Huzzah!

We'll have to wait on that. The total dropped back under. Maybe if you watered it down to make weak grog for now.

[Diamondback]

Still bloody awful compared to what you USA residents have to pay. And it gets worse with each and every add-on.
Hey, around here if I bought at brick-and-mortar the sales tax would add another 10%... and if I bought from Amazon or an online store with a 'physical presence' here I'd have to pay it on the shipping too.

[RichardPF]

Hey, around here if I bought at brick-and-mortar the sales tax would add another 10%... and if I bought from Amazon or an online store with a 'physical presence' here I'd have to pay it on the shipping too.

And over $125,000 once again!

[The Royal Hajj]

Question for the sake of clarity — As of this post, the Captain level nets you:

• 4 Exclusive KS-only ship packs
• 1 starter set (4 ships, counters, etc)
• 8 non-exclusive ship packs
• Attitude Marker (wood)
• Ruler (wood)
• Game mat
• Terrain pack

So that's 16 ships total, plus other goodies. Is that correct? I'm still deliberating if I physically have enough money to upgrade to the $260 captain level (from my Early Bird Lieutenant), but it seems like if the inventory above is true, the Captain level is the best deal (early bird or not)

Once the $140k mark is reached, that is a correct list Keegan. In fact, the Capt. level will see more bonuses and upgrade options as the campaign continues.



While it is not possible from the outside to track individuals to know what is happening for sure, it does appear that there is quite a bit of pledge upgrading of that nature going on.

That is one of the goals of the campaign. Since there is a limited number of possible backers out there, get the ones that have already pledged to upgrade to the next higher level is the best way to increase funding. Ares get's more money and the players that upgrade get more stuff.


The fact that the HMS Victory and USS Constitution are not slotted to be available until Jan '14ish would indicate to me that finding sufficient production bandwidth for additional products in a reasonable timeframe may be a challenge as well.

Right you are sir. They still have to make all the planes for WGF and WGS and I'm pretty sure the same factory makes there WotR miniatures as well. If their Galaxy KS is successful as well, I would bet they will start looking for a 2nd factory to work with.

Production bandwidth is an issue a lot of the miniatures type KS projects are running into. Especially in the resin/metal casting industry. I was talking to a sculptor friend of mine and she pointed out that when these KS projects get setup, the companies line up the artists, sculptors, and casters with a set number of pieces and get a deadline quote based on that. The the KS does well and hits a lot of stretch goals that add in more miniatures... which where not factored into the timetable for delivery. The money part is no issue, as that is all coming from the KS project, but there is no real way to squeeze more production out of a facility if if is at max already (possibly with other KS projects causing the same issues).


If they really want to push this KS then, as you say, they'll need to come up with some special stretch goals. Maybe foam harbours, similar to the foam hangers for the WoG planes to protect the miniatures may be an interim goal that could be out-sourced to a third party.

:D

[RichardPF]

Based on the actual start time that the KS project went live, it has just finished the first week of pledging.
Here is a summary of the data that I collected for that period.




3/5
3/6
3/7
3/8
3/9
3/10
3/11


Backers
325
410
467
501
531
551
578


Amount Pledged
57,861
72,776
87,382
100,572
112,938
119,414
127,717


Amount That Day
57,861
14,915
14,606
13,190
12,366
6,476
8,303


Goals Met
2
0
1
1
1
0
1


$ to Next Goal
17,139
2,224
12,618
9,428
12,062
5,586
12,283


Avg Pledge
178.03
177.50
187.11
200.74
212.69
216.72
220.96



The first day goals met includes the original goal and first stretch goal.
If the pledge rate holds at the level of the past two days, the project is about two more days away from the $140,000 stretch goal.

[Diamondback]

Just messaged and pledged for an extra ruler. Don't you jokers DARE mess this up for me now... *stares*

$12,300 to go. (12278 to be exact, I prefer to round to nearest hundred.) $70 left to pledge before I'm tapped out and have to start adjusting rewards and addons...

[Watchdog]

Hey, around here if I bought at brick-and-mortar the sales tax would add another 10%... and if I bought from Amazon or an online store with a 'physical presence' here I'd have to pay it on the shipping too.

Well, there is a kind of a difference between the $260 you pay for Captain and about $384 that I would have to pay to get the same package. This difference keeps a lot of EU players from pledging for Captain, if not from pledging at all.

[Sea Gull]

Well people are still pledging, currently above the $130K mark.

I just want the game now.I fear that when the game finally lands on these shores I'll end up disappointed with it. At the moment the anticipation is very high, I hope that I don't suffer a let down.

[RichardPF]

After 5 days of availability, Earlybird Commodores are getting scarce. Only 3 left.
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't think that there are KS Commodore level medals at the Anchorage.

[Sea Gull]

Maybe you don't get a medal. Maybe you get a nice sash.:)

[7eat51]

I suspect that with the amount of time left, Ares could run into a bit of a marketing crisis concerning energy. Even though we know when items will ship, the fact that the KS is still ongoing has a psychological effect. I think it behooves Ares to consider additional ships, even if their delivery date is later. This isn't so much as to garner more funds as much as to garner excitement. Otherwise, they should end the KS early, if they can.

[RichardPF]

After 5 days of availability, Earlybird Commodores are getting scarce. Only 3 left.
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't think that there are KS Commodore level medals at the Anchorage.

and the Earlybird Commodores are now all gone

[Diamondback]

Just for the hell of it, I built a spreadsheet and did some math...



Pledge
MSRP
Gunner
value
Marine
value
EB Mate
value
Mate
value
EB Lt
value
Lt
value
EB
Capt
value
Capt
value
EB Comm
value
Comm
value


Amount

$35

$65

$70

$80

$130

$140

$240

$260

$480

$520



Excl Ships
$20
2
$40
4
$80
0
0
0
0
4
$80
4
$80
4
$80
4
$80
8
$160
8
$160


Starter
$90
0
0
0
0
1
$90
1
$90
1
$90
1
$90
1
$90
1
$90
2
$180
2
$180


Singles
$20
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
8
$160
8
$160
16
$320
16
$320


Stretch 3:
Mat
$35
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
1
$35
1
$35
2
$70
2
$70


Stretch 4:
Att Ind
$5
0
0
0
0
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
2
$10
2
$10


Stretch 5:
Ruler
$5
0
0
0
0
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
1
$5
2
$10
2
$10


Stretch 6:
Terrain
$10








1
$10
1
$10
1
$10
1
$10
2
$20
2
$20


Stretch 7:
Capt/Crew
@$160K
???






















Stretch 8
(reserved)























Stetch 9
(reserved)























Stretch 10
(reserved)























Stretch 11
(reserved)























Stretch 12
(reserved)























Stretch 13
(reserved)























Stretch 14
(reserved)























Stretch 15
(reserved)























Subtotal
@MSRP

$40

$80

$100

$100

$180

$180

$385

$385

$770

$770



US MSRP
savings

$5
13%
$15
19%
$30
30%
$20
20%
$50
28%
$40
22%
$145
38%
$125
32%
$290
38%
$250
32%


WA, USA street
w/10% sales tax

$44

$88

$110

$110

$198

$198

$424

$424

$847

$847



Euro Street w/20% VAT

$48

$96

$120

$120

$216

$216

$462

$462

$924

$925



Euro Shipping

$15

$25

$50

$50

$60

$60

$60

$60

$60

$60



Euro KS VAT (MSRP+ship)

$11

$21

$30

$30

$48

$48

$89

$89

$166

$166



Euro KS Total

$61

$111

$150

$160

$238

$248

$389

$409

$706

$746



Euro Save/Loss over Street Price

-$13
-27%
-$15
-16%
-$30
-25%
-$40
-33%
-$22
-10%
-$32
-15%
$73
16%
$53
11%
$218
24%
$178
19%


US E-tail

$40
KS-$0
$80
KS-$0
$64
KS-$6
$64
KS-$16
$144
KS+$14
$144
KS+$4
$267
KS+$27
$267
KS+$7
$534
KS+$54
$534
KS+$14


Data as of 10PM PDT 13 Mar 2013, at $140,106 pledged. Will require revision for subsequent stretch goals. Need shipping data to estimate Euro e-tail for comparison... Assumption is that the KS-exclusive, Anchorage Accessories and BGG/KS-exclusive deck don't get the standard 40%-off e-tail discount. Red entries are where KS costs more than e-tail or retail, green are where the KS option costs less.

So, IF my math is right, as is my understanding of VAT being charged at "market rate or actual paid, whichever is greater" while you MAY not get as deep a discount as we do and you DO eat a huge hit--anywhere from 15-47%--at Leutenant level or below, at Captain and Commodore you'll STILL save money over what you WOULD pay in your on-the-street prices. Basically, you're comparing your Kickstarter cost to ours, which is apples-to-oranges, when what you need to compare it to is the on-the-street price including VAT or the European e-tailer price (assume 40% off MSRP if there were a Euro equivalent of 12-7, Miniature Market or Keith), and while this posts a loss in competition to e-tail it also has things you can't get anywhere else, and comparing this LGS's at the Captain and Commodore do post anywhere from $30 to $175 worth of savings. And with my rough math, that's like getting anywhere from one (at non-Early Captain) to seven (at Early Commodore) ships FREE.

[The Royal Hajj]

DB, Ares has assigned a $5 value for both the Attitude Indicator and the Combat Ruler.

[Diamondback]

Thanks--chart updated, and I would bet that while stretch freebies will increase the VAT, they will ALSO increase the savings over street-price; just adding the data for the rulers and attitude indicators already saw the negatives move closer to "wash" and the positives (now highlighted in green text) get even better.

Were I a European customer, if I had significant liquidity I would go either Captain for myself or if I had a buddy to go halves with Commodore, and if not I would just do Marine to snag the four exclusives--while it hasn't gotten any freebies thrown on and thus isn't improving, I'd consider the $15 an equity investment in building the brand and bringing it to market, or between I'd go enough pledge for the Lieutenant package (which HAS improved with Stretch freebies) and snipe off the eight singles later as cashflow allowed writing off the $22-32 despite it being the value of another ship.

Keith, can we do something with that chart as an "official" "Which Package Is Right For Me?" resource? Should I move it to a new thread of its own?

[7eat51]

Hey Diamondback, it might be worth exploring this based on prices folks could get at online retailers such as 12-7 or coolstuffinc, etc. If the KS still proves to have positive gain in terms of cost, your argument would be greatly strengthened, at least in cost concerns alone.

I think many of us weren't necessarily looking for the greatest deal, but also were concerned with supporting the game.

Nice work.

[RichardPF]

Hey Diamondback, it might be worth exploring this based on prices folks could get at online retailers such as 12-7 or coolstuffinc, etc. If the KS still proves to have positive gain in terms of cost, your argument would be greatly strengthened, at least in cost concerns alone.

I think many of us weren't necessarily looking for the greatest deal, but also were concerned with supporting the game.

Nice work.

I think that Aerodrome Accessories is an online retailer as well, is it not?

[Diamondback]

Against E-tail, Kickstarter loses every time; the only way to win that matchup is to hope we think the exclusives are worth a little premium, or see enough stretch goals piled on to do the job.

I need to figure out how to tweak my Excel spreadsheet to not take the E-tail standard 40% off on KS exclusives or the KS/BoardGameGeek-exclusive deck; if anyone wants a copy of the spreadsheet to check my math and see all the data in it, PM me your email address. :)

[7eat51]

I think that Aerodrome Accessories is an online retailer as well, is it not?

No offense intended.


Against E-tail, Kickstarter loses every time; the only way to win that matchup is to hope we think the exclusives are worth a little premium, or see enough stretch goals piled on to do the job.

I need to figure out how to tweak my Excel spreadsheet to not take the E-tail standard 40% off on KS exclusives or the KS/BoardGameGeek-exclusive deck; if anyone wants a copy of the spreadsheet to check my math and see all the data in it, PM me your email address. :)

KS might lose, but given that many will not pay MSRP, I think a different comparison would probably meet with less resistance when trying to point out that the KS is not as bad a deal as is being made out. Again, I agree that there are other good reasons to participate in the KS, such as support for the game.

[Diamondback]

I have a US E-tail line on the spreadsheet, which assumes the user will place an order above the "Free Shipping" threshold, but will need a way of accounting for EU shipping costs... which is a critical sticking point, since IIRC VAT is assessed on shipping costs as well. Anyone from there care to help me out?

And we're OVER THE TOP by ONE BUCK! Too close for comfort...

[Sea Gull]

VAT is charged on the total package which includes the costs of shipping. The bunch of Pirates ! :mad:

[Sea Gull]

Way-heey. $140K cracked. Terrain pack now available. Bring on the next stretch goal - Captain & crew ability cards.:)

[Diamondback]

So, Chris, what's your take: should I just use Ares' shipping estimates (doubling on Commodore) as a baseline, or can you suggest something better for adding a Kickstarter-vs-Etail line to the chart?

Current total $140,259--$335 of that is me.
-$260 Captain Package
-$20 HMS Victory
-$20 USS Constitution
-$20 Extra Map
-$5 Extra Attitude Indicator
-$5 Extra Combat Ruler
-$5 Extra Terrain Pack #1

[Sea Gull]

I think you have to go with Ares shipping estimates. After all, until the launch of the product we don't actually know what the cost of purchase will be, especially from an online retailer. And anyone buying the set from a retailer in the states and shipping it to Europe will be facing the same issues that we have with the KS. The weight of the item. So the shipping costs are still going to be horrendous. For European e-retailers, they will have to add the usual costs incurred to their price before they make the reduction. I don't know enough about how these margins etc. really work but I suspect the cost of the game to be significant, even from an online store.

What is the average % discount given by an online store for a new game?

Then it gets a bit more complicated when you consider that the Victory and Constitution won't ship with the game set. That means that the cost of those should not be included in any calculation for shipping/VAT/customs duty of the boxed set. hen they ship, they'll be assesed for the customs on the value of goods being shipped (incl the shipping costs).

As far as VAT goes, different european countries can have different levels of VAT, and have the VAT on different items. For example here it's 21%, in the UK it's 20% (I think). If you take VAT/Customs as roughly 220% then you shouldn't be far off the mark.

IF Ares mark on the invoice/shipping manifest that the items being shipped with the specific pledge level that are free, are indeed free and not give the retail value of those items, then of course the amount of VAT/Customs is reduced. Not by much probably, but hey, with $60 shipping plus the VAT/Customs every little bit helps.:)

And as Eric pointed out, by supporting the KS you are ensuring that the game will be supported and more ships etc. will become available in the near future. Hopefully.

[Watchdog]

A link to Kicktraq to help keep track of the progress of the campaign: http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1402889231/sails-of-glory-miniatures-ship-combat/#chart-daily

[7eat51]

What is the average % discount given by an online store for a new game?

Most online stores I have looked at in the past (for wargames and wargame supplies) have prices between 20-35% below MSRP. For a comparison chart, especially given the ease with which Excel does things, I suggest three columns (15%, 25%, 33%) - somewhat like worst-best case scenarios.

[RichardPF]

I am surprised that there have not been any comments about the potential inclusion of the Donald MacLeod artwork as stretch goal offerings yet.
The last KS update (#12) mentioned not only the possibility of prints but original artwork.
Does anyone know an approximate price range of his original works?

[csadn]

I am surprised that there have not been any comments about the potential inclusion of the Donald MacLeod artwork as stretch goal offerings yet.


It isn't of interest to me, as I have nowhere to hang a print -- all my wallspace is devoted to Bookshelves. :)

[Diamondback]

Update on the crew cards: each deck will have four copies each of ten cards, so that means four decks will be enough to fully "crew" a Captain package.

Man, the stretch goal after that's gonna be a pain in the wallet, though... it'll be the first level I can't up-pledge for.

[Capt P]

I have never heard of Kickstarter but when I saw it for Sails I came in at the Lt. level. Looking forward to getting the ships in Aug. Seems like a sort of preorder for the game. The sea mats have such great possiabilities.

[7eat51]

I am surprised that there have not been any comments about the potential inclusion of the Donald MacLeod artwork as stretch goal offerings yet.
The last KS update (#12) mentioned not only the possibility of prints but original artwork.
Does anyone know an approximate price range of his original works?

Here's the St. Ives Gallery: http://www.stivesgallery.co.uk/

Click the Price List and Ordering at top of page.

[RichardPF]

Here's the St. Ives Gallery: http://www.stivesgallery.co.uk/

Click the Price List and Ordering at top of page.

Thanks,

I had found that, but the KS update mentioned the possibility of a few original works being created not just prints such as those shown at the gallery.
I was wondering of anyone knew the price range of his original works.

[David Manley]

Based on my (admittedly limited) experieence with a few friends who are maritime artists, look at the cost of a print and add couple of zeroes

[Diamondback]

Just a note on stretch goals... yes, your "assessed value" will go up for VAT, but you're also getting things for free that the latecomers will pay full MSRP or e-tail AND VAT for. (AND, by the way, getting some things they NEVER will.) If I'm stuck choosing between 20% and 120% of MSRP, I'll choose the 20% every time! Wouldn't you?

[David Manley]

The assessed VAT will be based on whatever value the shipper puts on the declaration. In the past I've had freebies from companies in the US when I've purchased goods and the value quoted is the value I've paid rather than being revised upwards. Is there a suggestion that these other sellers have been breaking the law by doing so?

[Diamondback]

Know how much THEIR butts are gonna be in a sling if they get caught lying about it? (Around here, Sales Tax also has to be figured before any discounts get applied...) I know of places who WILL label a purchase a "gift"... but I usually avoid them, on the belief that someone of questionable ethics in one area is almost always so in others. Kinda like if I buy a car out-of-state... even if I pay far less, when I bring it home and register it, I'm assessed a Use Tax based on the Blue Book value or whatever I paid for it whichever is more--and when I have a gun shipped to a dealer for me from out-of-state, the tax assessed on it is 10% of the price here, and local price noticeably exceeds MSRP. (Let's say, for example, a Springfield GI .45, which MSRP's at $600. Most of America's gunshops'll do $400-500 for it, but around here it's more $800-900--guess how much I'm taxed on when I go to pick it up? And, oh by the way, that's on the item, the shipping, AND the typically $25-50 transfer fee for receiving and securing it and running a background check...)

[David Manley]

But is it lying? When 12-7 sent me a load of series 1 reprints they were selling them for rather less than the RRP which is all you could base as "assessed value" on, yet they declared the amount I paid and I was charged VAT on that amount.Is that wrong? Should sellers declare the full value of something even if they sold it in a sale? I'm pretty certain the answer is "no" - after all the VAT I pay on products in the UK is based on the sales price, not an "assessed value", and as the VAT is payable to HMRC I'd expect the same rules to apply.

And what happens with Sales Tax? If you are in the US and buying from the EU you shouldn't be charged VAT (if the seller's turnover is large enough for them to register for VAT). I'm presuming that the same works in reverse - since the EU buyers are from outside any US state they aren't being charged Sales Tax?

[7eat51]

Ethically, assuming the tax in question is ethical to begin with, one should pay tax on the actual purchase price, not the MSRP. MSRP is set somewhat arbitrarily at first based on predicted market value - market value, that is what manufacturers hope the market will value the product at, and, therefore, be willing to pay. Eventually, based on supply-and-demand, the actual market price continually shifts, and so should the taxes. If a company desires to send an add-on for free, ethically I see no problem with declaring $0.00 as its price. Value and price are not the same, and confusing the two creates problems.

As intimated, I do not think it is lying for a company to put $0.00 for a product if it was, in fact, free. Hiding sales by such means is a different scenario, but free is free.

[RichardPF]

Update #13 on the KS is about the Ares guys going to the GAMA trade show in Las Vegas this coming week.
Is anyone from the group here planning on going?

[Diamondback]

So at that rate, David, the EU's VAT should be even MORE Not A Big Deal than my projections indicated... (When I do a projections table or spreadsheet, I always try to factor based on worst possible interpretations.) I'm not lumping you in with 'em, but some of your fellow Europeans do give the impression that if they had nothing left to complain about, they'd complain about having nothing to complain about! LOL

[David Manley]

I'm not sure its entirely the VAT issue that EU members are unhappy about. Its more about EU members getting a raw deal from an EU company on the postage because of their distribution arrangements (and not just with the Kickstarter, but with Ares projects in general). When you end up paying (in some cases) neaerly twice the US price and the models are not available for weeks or sometimes months after the release date I can see that as a legitimate gripe.

[The Royal Hajj]

I'm not seeing how Ares is giving you guys the raw deal. We know from Wings that you guys end up paying the VAT/Import fees anyway. It's just handed to you guys in the form of the base cost of the miniature... from the distributors and LGS.

Ares has also stated that Europe only accounts for 30% of their market. It would not make sense for them to ship out 70% of their product to other countries, when they can just ship 30% in. And from what I understand of the VAT system, they would end up paying VAT on 100% of it, raising the cost everywhere. Just does not seem like good business sense to me.

As for products showing up in Europe later then in the US, that's a simple fact of logistics. If it lands here first, it has to get there later. I guess they could delay the release until it is in the stores in Europe, but again, that does not make business sense.

Perhaps one day Ares will be a large enough company to allow them to have a shipment go to both locations. Barring that, I think you guys are looking/blaming the wrong entity here.

[David Manley]

Thats very much an "I'm alright Jack, I'm inboard" response. I imagine if the boot was on the other foot you would look at this rather differently. But I think you've just outlined the "raw deal" aspects there quite nicely. If MRP here was about 20% more than yours to cover differences in sales tax then that would be fine. But they are typically double, if not more. So why is that? Do we pay for two loads of shipping? Once from China to the US, once from the US to Europe? Do they sell to distributors at different rates here and there? If Ares was a US company then it would be understandable. But it isn't. And release dates - how come other companies can achieve near-simultaneous release dates both sides of the Atlantic? Its eminently doable. They just don't.

[The Royal Hajj]

No, it's a response that looks at all the different sources that could be causing the issue, not just blaming the company that makes the product... which no one has any proof that they are giving you a raw deal. With everyone blaming Ares for sticking it you the EU guys with out any evidince to back it up, it just starts to sound like a conspiracy theory. lol

As for you guys paying double, talk to your distributors and stores. Ask Dom, he's a UK retail guy. From what I understand, Ares ships everything to Alliance Game Distributors. The path and method it takes from there to any of the EU distributors I do not know. I don't know if its Ares selling directly to those EU distributors or if it's Alliance that handles it. For me, I deal directly with Ares, and Alliance just handles the logistics for our transactions. But that might not be the case for other distributors, because they may also be getting other US goods through them at the same time.

Let's look at a sample product from start to finish.




US

EU



Production cost or initial value (EU is more due to higher shipping costs)

10.00

11.00



VAT/Texes/Customes (just guessing at 25% for everything here).

0.00

13.75



Distributor Cost

10.00

13.75



Distributor Markup

11.00

15.13



Store Cost

11.00

15.13



Store Markup

15.40

21.18



Retail Price

15.40

21.18




Again,that's just a simplified sample product based on what are roughly US markups. I have no idea what the markups are for the EU and what kind of taxes might be accessed at each step. I highly doubt you guys would see a price drop if they imported in to Italy first and then shipped everything out from there. All the same Vat/taxes are still going to be applied and all of the same markup is going to be applied at each step.

I am however, pretty sure Ares is not marking up their products just for EU sales. That could only hurt them and goes against everything any business wants to do... make money!

If they were headquartered in the US, would this topic even be being discussed??? Not according to you:


If Ares was a US company then it would be understandable.

Ares has stated time and again that they are US based and ran company, with it's headquarters in Italy. And based on the numbers they have given, 30% of their sales being in the EU, I'd say that another 5% goes to Other parts of the world and that 65% are in North America. If that is even remotely accurate, why would they not conduct them selves as a US based business?

As for simultaneous release dates, there are so many factors involved there it's hard to even talk about it. Ares again has given some information to us on this front. They are not large enough of a company (read, don't have the funds) to maintain a warehouse in both the US and the EU. So, with only one warehouse to ship things out of and knowing the 30/70 split of sales that they have, where would you put your warehouse? If you were a smart business person, you'd put it in the US. Now lets say that you did a manufacturing run of 100k units and they had all arrived at the warehouse. You know 70k of those are going to be sold in the same country as the warehouse is out. The other 30k have to be shipped to the EU, a trip that takes 4 weeks (just making up a number here to reflect shipping time and customs delays). You have already paid the factory for those 100k units, so you are out that money already. Would you hold back those 70k units that you could be selling and generating cash flow from for the 4 weeks it takes the other 30k units to make it to the EU?

Now, if we look back to the initial cause of complaint here, it was the shipping on the KS products to the EU. I can tell you for a fact that Ares did everything they could to lower those costs you to you guys. They were even willing to outsource the entire shipping operation to me if I could get better shipping rates through the USPS then Alliance could get through UPS (UPS is known to be higher priced for international shipping then the USPS in most cases). So Ares was willing to pay to have the product shipped from the distributor to me, pay me a handling fee and cover other expenses if it meant they could save you EU guys a decent amount of money on shipping. Alas, due to the size and weight of these boxes, I could not beat the quotes they already had by more then a dollar or two to most of the countries.

And I will agree that if the game cost us nearly double, we would be upset about it as well. i just don't think we would be putting the blame solely on the company when they have at least given us some info on why things are or how they are done. There are so many other factors outside their control, it just does not seem fair to blame them.

[David Manley]

some interesting points, and perhaps some useful areas of research for Ares since other companies obviously can deal with near simultaneous release dates - maybe it is just a matter of size, maybe it is also a matter or experience. And on pricing they could always, if they chose, set the price to the distributors to be a constant wherever they were in the world and spread the "overhead" equally per product item. For example, if we take the 70/30 split as accurate and apply it to the Kickstarter they could have set the Captain level at a round $260 flat rate around the world. That wouldn't be unreasonable, would it? :)

(of course if they did that and it spawned a greater interest in the rest of the world then that could result in the kind of growth that could see Ares distribution methods grow and improve, and hence resolve the situation anyway :D - win wins all round. And it would be supporting Ares and the games we love, so we'd all be in favour of that, wouldn't we?)

[The Royal Hajj]

I think size and experience could be big factors in the release dates.

As for setting the Captain level at $260 with free worldwide shipping as being fair, that all depends on if you want the company, and thus the game, be be around next year. I personally don't think it's fair to ask that. You are basically asking them for a 23% discount on their already below retail prices offered in the KS.

I do a very large portion of my AA business to international customers, but if they asked me to give them free shipping, I'd have to politely decline. That, or raise my base prices to cover that "free" shipping... which would kill my sales both here in the States and overseas...putting me out of business.

I think one of the problem here is that people are comparing this KS with others like the CMoN Zombicide KS. I believe that Ares is using Kickstarter in the way that it was intended... to kick start a project in to production. By this I mean, Ares is using the fund from the KS to seed the growth of a new game line, not to produce the game as the end result of the KS. CMoN does just the opposite. In fact, they are really just using KS to sell directly to customers, bypassing both the distributors and retails stores. And they are using their customers money to sell that those same customers the product. As a company (in regards to the KS project product) they have very little to no risk involved.

Since they have no requirements to fund future expansions of the game (they'll just do another KS for that), and they have cut at the distributor (12%) and the retailer (40%), they have plenty of room to give all the international backers that 23% discount. Ares can't afford to do this because they still need the support of the distributors and retail stores carrying their products. I know my FLGS does not carry the CMoN line of games because there is no incentive for him to do so... everyone that really wants the game is just going to buy it via the KS project and there is not going to be any "normal release" products made for it for him to sale.

[David Manley]

As for setting the Captain level at $260 with free worldwide shipping as being fair, that all depends on if you want the company, and thus the game, be be around next year. I personally don't think it's fair to ask that. You are basically asking them for a 23% discount on their already below retail prices offered in the KS.

No I'm not. OK, so I used the Early Bird level (as thats what i'm signed up to) but if the 70/30 split is accurate they could charge a flat rate $260 to anywhere in the world (US included) and make the same income as the current arrangement - for the normal Captain its $278.

[The Royal Hajj]

EB Captain is $240 and the normal Captain is $260 (not sure where you are getting $278 from as that is not a pledge level anywhere) :question:

I'm not sure where your 70/30 comes in to play?

[David Manley]

What I'm obviously failing to get across is this. If the Captain level had been pitched at $260 for early bird and $275 for regular**, including postage to anywhere in the world, Ares would most likely have received the same income as having a US / RoW split (and could potentially have generated significant additional interest outside the US - this could have been a really innovative and hooked a lot more players early in the life of the game).

The 70/30 split is ased on your previous comment regarding the current split of sales.

** with suitable equivalents at other levels - some simple sums to work out the relevant costs

[The Royal Hajj]

Ahh, you are saying they should have raised the cost of the game for everyone so that you guys did not have to pay shipping. Yeah, that sounds fair to me :pistole: :wink: :happy:

I'm pulling this table from the other thread I posted it in:





US MSRP
US KS Cpt.
US AA
EU KS Cpt.
EU AA


Starter Set
90.00
-
65.00
-
65.00


Exclusive Ships
76.00
-
60.00
-
60.00


Series 1 Ships
152.00
260.00
120.00
260.00
120.00


Game Mat
35.00
Free
25.00
Free
25.00


Attitude Indicator
5.00
Free
5.00
Free
5.00


Combat Ruler
5.00
Free
5.00
Free
5.00


Terrain Pack #1
10.00
Free
10.00
Free
10.00


Shipping
15.00
Free
15.00
60.00
75.00


Sub Total
388.00
260.00
305.00
320.00
365.00


VAT (20%)
0.00
0.00
.00
64.00

73.00



Total
388.00
260.00
305.00
384.00
438.00




You say you are not happy with paying close to double what us US player pay. Yet, here the KS gives you the opportunity to buy it all for less than US retail including shipping and VAT, and you are still not happy?

[David Manley]

"No, that sounds fair to me"

Why not? its a global gaming community and everyone is being extolled to support the KS and the game, so why not place an equal load on everyone? :)

Personally I'm happy, but I'm aware tta there are many, many who are not and who have decided not to opt in at this stage as a result. If I wasn't happy I'd have passed on the whole thing and waited until the models arrive (tbh I'll be mostly using this with my existing 1/1200 modle collection, I'm buying in because I want to support the project). I've seen the table severla times and its worth noting that even at $260/$275 for the captain's level the US subscribers would be getting a steal. I guess what I'm saying this could have been an opportunity to really do something quite unusual and to give the project a very good chance outside the US. If they'd done it from the outset it would have avoided the "we are being shafted" comments, made Ares look really good and no-one would have batted an eyelid other than appreciative ones (as an aside there are several US based compenies that already do something similar - niche areas admittedly - and seem to do OK out of it)

[The Royal Hajj]

"No, that sounds fair to me"
Why not? its a global gaming community and everyone is being extolled to support the KS and the game, so why not place an equal load on everyone? :)


And I'd like an Aston Martin, so you foot the freight for it for me? ;)

Ares could have hidden the shipping charges in the game prices and made them selves look good. Instead, they told it the way it was and worked very hard to find a better way to do it. And all they got was complaints. No thank you for letting us buy this below retail or anything like that.


I've seen the table severla times and its worth noting that even at $260/$275 for the captain's level the US subscribers would be getting a steal.


And at $384, the EU subscribers are not getting a steal??

[David Manley]

Whatever. It was just a suggestion, i'm not surprsed it hasn't got any traction at your end. What the hell do I know anyway :/

[David Manley]

btw, Aston Martin DB9 MSRP is pretty much identical in the US and The UK, so it looks like someone is doing it :)

[The Royal Hajj]

Whatever. It was just a suggestion, i'm not surprsed it hasn't got any traction at your end. What the hell do I know anyway :/

How is it that you are upset with us for not wanting to pay for part of your game :question: I just don't get that.



btw, Aston Martin DB9 MSRP is pretty much identical in the US and The UK, so it looks like someone is doing it :)
Yep, someone is... the US Govt. They are not charging excess taxes and fees on imported goods :happy: (oh, and that's about the only thing they are doing right :erk: )

Don't get me wrong in this whole discussion, I completely see why you guys are upset (and I feel for you on a personal level). I just feel you all are upset at the wrong people. All that free healthcare, schools and other entitlements have to be paid for some how, and this is part of it.

[Berthier]

In Australia Aston Martin about 60% dearer than us or uk....now that hurts! Luxury car tax plus gst (vat). So I decided not to buy one and opted for KS sog. Well that's my story anyway!

[David Manley]

but its NOT the VAT people are questioning (well, some may be). If it was they'd be whinging about "the moidels cost 20% more than the US - how unfair". Its the fact that they cost double. Thats not down to governments. Thats down to distribution practices.

[David Manley]

"In Australia Aston Martin about 60% dearer than us or uk"

I was thinking of getting one, but they are crap at towing horse boxes and don't do well in bogs so I went for a Hilux instead :D

[7eat51]

In Australia Aston Martin about 60% dearer than us or uk....now that hurts! Luxury car tax plus gst (vat). So I decided not to buy one and opted for KS sog. Well that's my story anyway!

Aston Martin - limited to driving around Australia. SoG - the whole world is yours to explore (and dominate).

[7eat51]

David, do I understand you correctly, that what you are suggesting is that the sticker price for the KS EB Captain and regular Captain be raised, for example, from $240 to $260, and from $260 to $275 respectively - and similarly for the other pledge levels? And by doing so, those in the U.S. would shoulder some of the burden of the cost to the EU and elsewhere? And that this would, also, in your opinion, garner goodwill for Ares because the KS cost to everyone, regardless of location, would be the same? And that this would be in alignment with the spirit of being a global community of players?

I don't feel comfortable jumping into this discussion until I believe I understand the different sides.

[David Manley]

Essentially yes. You get the benefit of geography in terms of when you get your goodies. And other companies make similar arangements to ensure as far as is practicable and notwithstanding the local efefcts of taxes that base prices are geographically independent. Plus a move that expanded the customer base would seem to be a good thing, especially when we are all being called upon to help support this good cause.

Anyway, its not a side. Its an opinion, only mine. I don't expect anyone on the West side of the pond to be in any way supportive. Why woud you? You hold all the cases. As far as this KS is concerned the rest of the world (standfast where Ares is in Italy and the production facility in China) and I guess Ares commercial viability doesn't need to exist.

[7eat51]

Essentially yes. You get the benefit of geography in terms of when you get your goodies. And other companies make similar arangements to ensure as far as is practicable and notwithstanding the local efefcts of taxes that base prices are geographically independent. Plus a move that expanded the customer base would seem to be a good thing, especially when we are all being called upon to help support this good cause.

Anyway, its not a side. Its an opinion, only mine. I don't expect anyone on the West side of the pond to be in any way supportive. Why woud you? You hold all the cases. As far as this KS is concerned the rest of the world (standfast where Ares is in Italy and the production facility in China) and I guess Ares commercial viability doesn't need to exist.

I do not know how much Ares would have hurt its U.S. sales if the EB Captain (the one I chose) was $260 as opposed to $240. Apparently, the company assessed that as a bad move - remember you stated "as far as possible" so you must acknowledge it might not possible for Ares. If the intel Ares had suggested that a price point of $260 would result in less backers, it was wise to set it up as it did; one problem is that companies, especially when launching new products, do not know the corresponding elasticity of demand coefficient. One thing to keep in mind, is that less backers at a higher price point does not benefit Ares here because Ares would not be pocketing the additional $20; the $20 would have underwritten shipping, VAT, etc. If Ares did not have sufficient intel to suggest that $260 would have lessened the number of backers, it probably could have done so. Until the discussions here, I don't know how many Americans would have thought "This is a higher price than it should be because we're underwriting Europeans". If I saw $260 for EB Captain, free shipping worldwide, I doubt I would have noticed anything. Again, not knowing Ares marketing research, I do not know the rationale of its decision, and the company could have made the wisest decision as it currently is. I also don't know if $260 as opposed to $240, etc. would have hurt sales in the long-run. I skip one dinner out with my wife, and the $20 or more is made up. One thing I have kept in mind when buying games is not the sticker price but lifetime value. If I buy $100 with of WGF planes, and play the game 100 times, my cost was $1 per game. Not much to think about there.

One thing I challenge you on is the comment about those of us here to not be "in any way supportive". Early on I suggested Ares add a pledge option where we can provide some funds to underwrite international shipping. I, for one, did not choose EB Commodore to ensure my international mates had access to that savings. I doubt I am alone on this.

I think if you are finding less-than-desired support from Americans at present it is due to, what appears to many here, as incessant complaining about something that is due to governmental practices and the logistical ability of a small company. One could say that the discussion centers on Ares shipping policies, etc., but too many of the posts discussed VAT and how VAT is assessed. On a site where political conversations are discouraged, it makes it difficult to address such an issue. Additionally, I think our reading of the discussions makes some of our European friends appear as saying we have an obligation to underwrite European costs. That might not be what anyone is actually claiming, but that is what is coming across. That is a hard position to defend. There is a difference between choosing to underwrite by actually making pledges, and being told we have an obligation to underwrite. Again, the obligation part is what is coming across at times.

In summary, I think Ares could have raised the pledge amounts a bit without any significant loss, knowing I am speaking in ignorance of intel. If I found out it was to decrease some of the international cost, I would not have had a problem, even more so if anyone ever issued a thanks. Once the conversation took the route it did, my support waned a bit. Again, I doubt I am alone here. As for Ares' present ability to ship efficiently internationally from China, I must take Keith's understanding as fact because I have no data to challenge it, and I have no reason, whatsoever, to question his integrity. Hopefully, if Ares continues to grow, international logistics could be improved - and I realize the chicken-and-egg situation here.

[OmegaLazarus]

Thats very much an "I'm alright Jack, I'm inboard" response. I imagine if the boot was on the other foot you would look at this rather differently.


We (Americans) do have this counter situation on just about every other miniature company (and other manufacturers like guns etc.) and have to bite the bullet. Games Workshop is not a good example, but there are several other UK companies that only sell/ship from there so the choice for us is to pay high or buy from the rare US distributor that has included that into their sale price. Don't get me started on guns from FN. I love their 5.7, but I remember how much it was when it came out and I looked at design and material and couldn't come up with the value, then I found out they were only made over there. Higher cost of living, higher wage, higher tax, then shipping. It all adds up.

Sadly, I usually just stay away from those products (which reduces my access to 2mm minis among other things). I imagine that is what I would do in this case as I would not be able to justify the cost that you guys are having to foot.

Rain falls everywhere, but you only notice it when you get drenched. :happy:

[Sea Gull]

Rain falls everywhere, but you only notice it when you get drenched. :happy:

I like that one. I may use it myself sometime.:thumbsup::clap:

[David Manley]

As an aside - I was pleased to find a large parcel waiting for me from the US today. A set of WW1 models that I'd ordered a little while back. About $110 worth. Mr HMRC had decided he couldn't be bothered to do the paperwork to levy VAT (some you win, some you lose, today the fates were smiling)

And it was free P&P (which the company offers anywhere in the world) :)

Which is just to say some companies offer such a service, others don't. I like doing business with those that do :)

[David Manley]

One thing I challenge you on is the comment about those of us here to not be "in any way supportive"

Thats not what I said. I said I wouldn't expect it. There's a difference.

[Diamondback]

Up to $153,587... only $6400 to go! Yes, I know, this is a little off my normal rounding, but if we hit that point... meaning, unless I pledge in before, get it within $20 and I will PERSONALLY put it Over The Top myself.

[The Barrelman]

I know there is a long time remaining for the kickstarter. But, is there anything we could do to get the hype machine going full speed? I am kicked in on a dice game called Dungeon Roll (Here (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/michaelmindes/dungeon-roll-a-dicey-dungeon-delve)) that is going crazy right now with pledges. I would really like to get both SoG and WoG in a more prominent public position.

I was thinking about something, but it was WoG related... Gonna post it over there.

[Diamondback]

Oops, back down to $153,462. $6600 to next stretch.

[csadn]

so I went for a Hilux instead :D

http://theswash.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/top_gear_toyota_hilux.jpg

>;)

[Diamondback]

$153,852. Moving back in the right direction and getting closer... $6200 to go. Come on, guys, let's see what kinda extra ships get unlocked at $200K... we're already 3/4 of the way there. (Though I'd REALLY like to see what would get unlocked at quarter-mil... and while I wish we could find out what would await at half I doubt we'll get there, maybe $375K at best.)

[The Barrelman]

Follow the projections on KickTraq (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1402889231/sails-of-glory-miniatures-ship-combat/) to see what Sails of Glory might pull in for a final total. The projections are 200-275k right now. The project is hitting a mid-kickstart plateau right now.

[Diamondback]

At this point, I'm thinking $250K is optimistic--but I'm trying to keep a positive tone. (And I'm hoping with the early plateau, we might get a "midcourse bump" in addition to the last-days spike.)

If it makes $175K but not $200, I'm thinking I'll mop up the seconds on everything except for KS exclusives and AA "special add-ons", including the maps, via 12-7 or AA. Doing a "Complete Collection Battle" right, you need at least two rulers per starter, one attitude indicator and 1-2 terrain packs per map... probably one map per eight ships, maybe per 16 if you push... one crew deck per four ships... this is ALREADY getting expensive, I'm projecting a Commodore package with addons to complete the Starter (2 rulers per) and maps (2 TP's per) at around $655. If it makes $200K, the add-on ships are at a 25% savings... different enough to make the 4% equity difference from an AA mop-up worth keeping it all in KS for me even though I'm looking for SOMETHING to throw my old friend Bill some business with (unless I give him my WoG business and Keith SoG, or buy minis from Bill and maps and accessories from Keith... this is the problem with having multiple friends in the same business).

Also, it depends on if Andrea takes my advice about Victory's near-sisters for the Side B card instead of herself at different vintage...

[7eat51]

Rain falls everywhere, but you only notice it when you get drenched.

This is a good saying, and worth remembering.


At this point, I'm thinking $250K is optimistic

This is basically a 60% increase from where we're at now. Since the game is already funded, there is no real incentive for people to wait to make their initial pledge. What I would anticipate is folks doing add-on pledges to buy additional mats, etc. But given the comparison between $5 and $20 items and $260 pledge levels, I would be surprised if late additions would amount to this much.

[Coog]

I'm wondering if Ares made the right choice of time periods based on previous 70/30 remarks. If 70% of the market is in the U. S., wouldn't Ares have done better to choose a period after 1800 that would have included more U. S. ships? It seems the USS Constitution was thrown in as a stretch goal to attract U. S. customers at the last of production planning as it does not fit in with the other ships either in time period or size. But then too if they would have chosen the Golden Age of Piracy, more gamers would have been drawn to the game since most have no knowledge of history but think pirates are cool.

[RichardPF]

I'm wondering if Ares made the right choice of time periods based on previous 70/30 remarks. If 70% of the market is in the U. S., wouldn't Ares have done better to choose a period after 1800 that would have included more U. S. ships? It seems the USS Constitution was thrown in as a stretch goal to attract U. S. customers at the last of production planning as it does not fit in with the other ships either in time period or size. But then too if they would have chosen the Golden Age of Piracy, more gamers would have been drawn to the game since most have no knowledge of history but think pirates are cool.

I would think that for mass appeal, no matter which side of whichever pond you are on, it is hard to do better than to draw a bulls eye around the Battle of Trafalgar first as Ares has done.

I would also agree that the place to go next for mass appeal would be late 17th Early 18th Carolinas to the Caribbean.
The Pirate motif does lend itself to some kick-butt graphics.

[Coog]

Or considering how well another Kickstarter is doing right now::erk:

2663

[RichardPF]

Or considering how well another Kickstarter is doing right now::erk:

2663

OK, So why isn't this Alien Zombie Pirate Ninjas?

[7eat51]

I think both of you guys are onto something, or maybe just on something (Zombie Pirates?). :wink:

I think Ares did well with the first round, though I understand the comment about starting with the U.S. Unfortunately, as pointed out, most folks here might not know much about U.S. Age-of-Sail history. I admit I WAS one until I joined the Anchorage. I think the age of piracy would definitely be a gateway for folks, and I would be highly supportive of that for the next round even though I would like to see U.S. frigates. Pirates, I think, would definitely be attractive to school-age children and high schoolers. I can see some role-players I know get into the piracy era as well.

[The Barrelman]

How about ships of the Barbary Wars for a future expansion. That was a conflict about "piracy" which had early US ships in it. It would be smaller, faster scale frigates, sloops and schooners. Might be fun and hook other demographics.

[RichardPF]

I think both of you guys are onto something, or maybe just on something (Zombie Pirates?). :wink:

I think Ares did well with the first round, though I understand the comment about starting with the U.S. Unfortunately, as pointed out, most folks here might not know much about U.S. Age-of-Sail history. I admit I WAS one until I joined the Anchorage. I think the age of piracy would definitely be a gateway for folks, and I would be highly supportive of that for the next round even though I would like to see U.S. frigates. Pirates, I think, would definitely be attractive to school-age children and high schoolers. I can see some role-players I know get into the piracy era as well.

And while we may eyeroll at Zombie Pirates and the like, a lot of what is out there is that type of fare. I think that a serious game about the Spanish main would do great biz and teach some history too. As for land masses and costal areas, how about Port Royal in 1:1000 scale? And if you want to incorporate merchant ships, well, there's the entire Spanish treasure fleet to plunder.

[7eat51]

How about ships of the Barbary Wars for a future expansion. That was a conflict about "piracy" which had early US ships in it. It would be smaller, faster scale frigates, sloops and schooners. Might be fun and hook other demographics.


And while we may eyeroll at Zombie Pirates and the like, a lot of what is out there is that type of fare. I think that a serious game about the Spanish main would do great biz and teach some history too. As for land masses and costal areas, how about Port Royal in 1:1000 scale? And if you want to incorporate merchant ships, well, there's the entire Spanish treasure fleet to plunder.

As much as I would like the Barbary Wars, I think the Golden Age of Piracy would have broader appeal. Personally, I would like to have ships from all the time periods; strategically, I hope Ares will introduce lines that have the broadest appeal first, especially for attracting new players, to ensure the game's viability. Additionally, I think once people play, they will enjoy the game, and that could open doors to learning about the other ship lines and associated time periods.

[RichardPF]

How about ships of the Barbary Wars for a future expansion. That was a conflict about "piracy" which had early US ships in it. It would be smaller, faster scale frigates, sloops and schooners. Might be fun and hook other demographics.

Barbary Wars and 1812 is almost a two-fer. Maybe even almost a three-fer, and we already have the Constitution in the pipeline. That having been said, if I were the one bankrolling the next project it would be centered in the El Caribe.

[Coog]

If Ares would follow up this kickstarter with a War of 1812 kickstarter, I would definitely buy one of everything and then some. Since the U. S. 44-gun frigate model is already going to be out there, perhaps have a starter set with the 38-gun Constellation, the Macedonian or Shannon, an 1813 U.S. sloop-of-war, and a British Cruizer-class brig-sloop.

[The Royal Hajj]

We have hit the KS mid campaign slump. But that does not mean that excitement and future goals can not be met. We had a meeting tonight to discuss this very thing and came up with some good ideas. With the big wigs of Ares at GAMA right now, reaction times are going to be slower, but I'm sure you guys are going to like what is in the works.

If you take a look at the Torn Armor (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1471855235/torn-armor/#chart-daily) KS stats, you can see that they have turned the middle of their campaign in to the best part. It's all about how you manage the campaign, and the guy behind the ours is on top of things. In fact, the Torn Armor up swing is a direct result of his input to that campaign.

Keep an eye on the KS page for a cool new video on the combat system later tonight or early tomorrow ;)

[7eat51]

I am glad to read that Ares will be working on the KS site and adding a video. The other day I participated in a couple of contests via BGG, and the associated KS pages were more developed than the SoG page. The videos they had were a great addition. I think for a game that highlights visuals, such as SoG, the marketing has to be as visually appealing as possible. Given the length of time from the start of the Anchorage to the KS, as well as the time of the KS, there needs to be more announcements and hooks for folks sitting on the fence and for pledgers to up their levels or add-ons and for fans to be excited about the game. The recent addition of the standard rules has breathed some life into discussions here, for example.

[Sea Gull]

Agree entirely. The addition of the rules to the web site came at just the right time. Not only did it give me an insight into the game, but it has led to more discussions on the Anchorage site, which is becomming more a living entity the closer the release date comes. This can also help with the KS - showing that there is already a lively community out there for a game that hasn't been released yet.

[The Royal Hajj]

I agree about the visuals as well and have talked to them about it. Hopefully they will spice it up some as time goes by.

[OmegaLazarus]

but it has led to more discussions on the Anchorage site, which is becomming more a living entity the closer the release date comes. This can also help with the KS - showing that there is already a lively community out there for a game that hasn't been released yet.

I totally agree. Since Hajj works close with Ares, I am surprised there isn't a link to the anchorage from SoG Kickstarter with a bigger paragraph. I know that Aerodrome was a sort of hidden jem that has increased by love and support of that game 10fold. The same with anchorage. I was interested in the game, but after playing around here more, I get more ravenous for SoG to release.

If I were an 'uninitiated' lubber and looking into SoG from kickstarter and not sure about a new game with a bit of buy-in from a smaller company, I would be uplifted by clicking to see that there is a lively dedicated community to it already (as well as a dedicated community to the their previous game). A little paragraph how their (Ares's) games garner a community of active followers and contributors speaks well to the games they made. It would set them apart from other companies and maybe throw a little business Hajj's way as new gamers may use his site as their OL game store.

I just think a lone link might get lost in the mix and not clicked. Whereas a bit more info and it would be a meaty part of the selling point of funding.

[7eat51]

I totally agree. Since Hajj works close with Ares, I am surprised there isn't a link to the anchorage from SoG Kickstarter with a bigger paragraph. I know that Aerodrome was a sort of hidden jem that has increased by love and support of that game 10fold. The same with anchorage. I was interested in the game, but after playing around here more, I get more ravenous for SoG to release.

If I were an 'uninitiated' lubber and looking into SoG from kickstarter and not sure about a new game with a bit of buy-in from a smaller company, I would be uplifted by clicking to see that there is a lively dedicated community to it already (as well as a dedicated community to the their previous game). A little paragraph how their (Ares's) games garner a community of active followers and contributors speaks well to the games they made. It would set them apart from other companies and maybe throw a little business Hajj's way as new gamers may use his site as their OL game store.

I just think a lone link might get lost in the mix and not clicked. Whereas a bit more info and it would be a meaty part of the selling point of funding.

I agree totally. The nice thing about updating online advertising such as the KS page is its low price - a few minutes for an editor to add copy. The more connections between the two sites, the better the result - synergy.

[OmegaLazarus]

Cross promotional. Deal mechanics. Revenue streams. Jargon. Synergy. :hmmm:

[7eat51]

Cross promotional. Deal mechanics. Revenue streams. Jargon. Synergy. :clap:

[Sea Gull]

:puke::puke:

:happy:

[Diamondback]

Why am I having flashbacks to some of the Buzzword Bingo games I played back in my Business Major days? LOL

$3900 to go! Though I positively DREAD buying two of everything if the goal after this is met... between finances and repainting. Hopefully Andrea will take my advice about making the B Side card use the same paint and flag as the A Side, and using one of her near-sisters for the HMS Victory B rather than just "Victory, different year". I thought the whole POINT of Side B's was to have bigger battles, and you can't very well have 1765 Victory and 1805 Victory side-by-side like you could her 1745 Establishment ancestors or Boyne 98-gun or 1810 Impregnable/1820 Trafalgar descendants, right?

EDIT: Scratch that, $2600 to next goal--and I put up a poll asking for thoughts on the "second ship" for the back-side of the HMS Victory card, so go look and vote!

[7eat51]

Why am I having flashbacks to some of the Buzzword Bingo games I played back in my Business Major days?

Not sure what you mean. All we're trying to do here is think outside the box to create a win-win situation by ensuring that every touchpoint is customer-centered as Ares has moved into the new economy way of doing B2C via business process outsourcing. By helping Ares adopt best practices, we can enable them to be best of breed in terms of the gaming industry as it builds new capabilities while leveraging its core competency. We simply want the KS enterprise to pop, offering solutions to help Ares develop a cutting edge brand image and increased visibility, and to ensure its sustainability by maximizing its ROI through value-added processes. It is mission critical that Ares creates a holistic approach to customer satisfaction as it positions itself for the next generation of products. Seriously Diamondback, no one here drank any buzzword Kool-Aid.

[Diamondback]

Eric, I was trying to crack a funny about all the jargon. :) The point is valid, amigo, and one I'm totally on the same page with.

$2200 to go! Right now, it's looking like my best strategy is to go Captain+Marine, pledge for extra mats and terrain packs, then mop up the second set of singles, starter, Victory and Constitution via Keith. Yes, I'm working up a spreadsheet about how much it'll cost me to get everything I want... he'll beat the KS on no-exclusive ships by about a buck if I'm reading it right.

[RichardPF]

Not sure what you mean. All we're trying to do here is think outside the box to create a win-win situation by ensuring that every touchpoint is customer-centered as Ares has moved into the new economy way of doing B2C via business process outsourcing. By helping Ares adopt best practices, we can enable them to be best of breed in terms of the gaming industry as it builds new capabilities while leveraging its core competency. We simply want the KS enterprise to pop, offering solutions to help Ares develop a cutting edge brand image and increased visibility, and to ensure its sustainability by maximizing its ROI through value-added processes. It is mission critical that Ares creates a holistic approach to customer satisfaction as it positions itself for the next generation of products. Seriously Diamondback, no one here drank any buzzword Kool-Aid.

So YOU'RE the one writing all of those corporate mission statements!

[RichardPF]

The last two days of the KS project have seen a significant increase in the number of, and dollars of, pledges as compared to the previous four or five days.
I wonder if there is anything that can be pointed to that accounts for this.

I would not think that any orders that might be being written at GAMA, especially the Admiral of the Fleet level type purchases that would likely be written there, would show up on Kickstarter because of the KS fees.
There has only been one additional Admiral of the Fleet pledge in the past two days anyway.

[Berthier]

There's an early bird commodore left..was that there before or did someone pull out? Would be nice to hear how GAMA is progressing and particularly the feedback from prospective distributors.

[RichardPF]

There's an early bird commodore left..was that there before or did someone pull out? Would be nice to hear how GAMA is progressing and particularly the feedback from prospective distributors.

I was that drop off about an hour ago.
No doubt it won't last long...

[RichardPF]

There's an early bird commodore left..was that there before or did someone pull out? Would be nice to hear how GAMA is progressing and particularly the feedback from prospective distributors.

And it's gone!

[OmegaLazarus]

Some of it may be the close proximity of the next stretch goal. I just increased my pledge by a couple bucks. Every little bit helps and I have already gotten more freebies than I calculated to make the investment profitable so now I am just 'spending my winnings.'

[David Manley]

So YOU'RE the one writing all of those corporate mission statements!

Quote from a business management seminar I attended where we were all getting pissed off with the member of the Master of Bull**** Association pontificating at the front

"Oi, The only people who need mission statements are fighter pilots"

(the course bloke was already a bit hacked oof with people shouting "bingo" and "house" every now and then whilst he droned on about nothing in particular.

[Diamondback]

$1400 to Goal! Let's see...

16 Series 1 ships / 4 = 4 Capt/Crew Decks
2 Specials (Victory/Constitution) / 4 = 1 Deck
12 Series 2 ships / 4 = 3 Decks
Total = 8 Decks
Decks in Pledge -1 = 7
7 Decks * $5 per = potential $35 up-pledge ffrom me if budget allows.

This assumes we stay at single-sided cards. Doubles where I need to buy two sets of everything is gonna be like "oh, bugger..."
16 *2 Series 1 ships = 8 decks
2 *2 Specials = 1 deck
12 *2 Series 2 ships = 6 decks
Total 15 decks (less one freebie) *$5 = $70
Paying for all this is gonna get ugly... doing so and keeping up with WGF/WGS may drive me back into psychiatric care. LOL

[7eat51]

"Oi, The only people who need mission statements are fighter pilots"

That's a great quote.


Paying for all this is gonna get ugly... doing so and keeping up with WGF/WGS may drive me back into psychiatric care. LOL

Are the decks set up to where each ship would need its own?

[7eat51]

The last two days of the KS project have seen a significant increase in the number of, and dollars of, pledges as compared to the previous four or five days.
I wonder if there is anything that can be pointed to that accounts for this.

I would not think that any orders that might be being written at GAMA, especially the Admiral of the Fleet level type purchases that would likely be written there, would show up on Kickstarter because of the KS fees.
There has only been one additional Admiral of the Fleet pledge in the past two days anyway.

It could be the newly added videos. I am not sure of their timing in relation to the increase, but the visuals will sell.

[Diamondback]

Eric, the Crew Decks are set up with four copies each of ten different cards--one deck will fully load four ships, or if you don't want to deploy with full upgrades probably a few more. Personally, I prefer the "Alpha Strike* with Spares" model, having enough to load EVERYTHING for bear all at once with some extras in reserve...
*Vietnam War term--certain high-value targets required Presidential approval to strike, this was the "Approval" or "Alpha" list, so on the rare occasion you got that approval, you cobbled together everything on the hangar deck that could fly and loaded it down with as much as it could carry, and threw it all at the target at once. Which was SERIOUS when you consider there were typically no less than SIX carriers on Yankee Station at any one time...

[7eat51]

Eric, the Crew Decks are set up with four copies each of ten different cards--one deck will fully load four ships, or if you don't want to deploy with full upgrades probably a few more. Personally, I prefer the "Alpha Strike* with Spares" model, having enough to load EVERYTHING for bear all at once with some extras in reserve...
*Vietnam War term--certain high-value targets required Presidential approval to strike, this was the "Approval" or "Alpha" list, so on the rare occasion you got that approval, you cobbled together everything on the hangar deck that could fly and loaded it down with as much as it could carry, and threw it all at the target at once. Which was SERIOUS when you consider there were typically no less than SIX carriers on Yankee Station at any one time...

Great. Very helpful. Thanks.

Off to order some more decks.

[RichardPF]

It could be the newly added videos. I am not sure of their timing in relation to the increase, but the visuals will sell.

The start of the blip was definitely pre new video.
It was also slightly pre GAMA.

[csadn]

MBA: Monumental Bulls--- Artist.

[David Manley]

Manager By Accident
Me Before Anyone
Much B*gg**ing About
etc...

:D

[OmegaLazarus]

the Crew Decks are set up with four copies each of ten different cards--one deck will fully load four ships, or if you don't want to deploy with full upgrades probably a few more.

Thanks for the info. Where did you find that info about the Decks? Did I miss a thread on here or on Ares's site?

[Capt P]

Have my KS at the LT level and have been getting the updates. Also watched the videos and they do a good job in explaining the game. Great job by Ares.

[Diamondback]

Thanks for the info. Where did you find that info about the Decks? Did I miss a thread on here or on Ares's site?
Don't remember if it was public comment or private message, but I asked on KS.

[The Royal Hajj]

Thanks for the info. Where did you find that info about the Decks? Did I miss a thread on here or on Ares's site?

It's some where in the KS comments. If I had the time, I'd dig through all of those and pull out all the "data" and post it in a thread here so we could keep track of it better.

[7eat51]

Now within $300 of next stretch goal.

[RichardPF]

And there it is!

2677

[RichardPF]

What's after 175?

[Diamondback]

Just pledged another $30 to get us not just AT but OVER the Top. IIRC, $200K gets us extra ships at $15 each--have a query about if that includes our addon Victories and Constitutions retroactively.

*Willy Degel voice* "We banged dat one out Anchorage, now on to da next one!" lol

[The Royal Hajj]

What's after 175?

Lots of stuff! lol

[OmegaLazarus]

Okay, so I have never backed a KS before this one and I have a question.

I am already and (EB) Captain and have pledged a few more dollars just to sweeten the pot.

If I want an extra mat (makes sense since 4+ games of WoG are played on 2 mats), do I just pledge an extra generic $20 and when the KS is over, they will ask what I want to do with that? It seems that that is what it says, but I wasn't sure if that was it. It seems there could be a run on certain products if they don't know ahead of time. Like if everyone spent all of their extra pledge on $5 combat rulers, it might be tough to meet that demand on schedule (though deservedly nice for Hajj).

I just want to make sure I do it right since I will probably want an extra mat and the extra terrain pack to support it.


P.S. - Is there a design for the combat rulers yet? Is that the one they show in the videos?

[Sea Gull]

Okay, so I have never backed a KS before this one and I have a question.

I am already and (EB) Captain and have pledged a few more dollars just to sweeten the pot.

If I want an extra mat (makes sense since 4+ games of WoG are played on 2 mats), do I just pledge an extra generic $20 and when the KS is over, they will ask what I want to do with that? It seems that that is what it says, but I wasn't sure if that was it. It seems there could be a run on certain products if they don't know ahead of time. Like if everyone spent all of their extra pledge on $5 combat rulers, it might be tough to meet that demand on schedule (though deservedly nice for Hajj).

I just want to make sure I do it right since I will probably want an extra mat and the extra terrain pack to support it.


P.S. - Is there a design for the combat rulers yet? Is that the one they show in the videos?

Hi Japheth,

My understanding is that is exactly what you do. You pledge an extra $20 and send tem a message using the Contact Me button that it's for an extra mat above what you get as captain. I think that our First Sea Lord stated the rulers will be wooden and so will not be in colour. This leaves you free to stain it to your own liking should you so desire.

Cheers
Chris

[7eat51]

Okay, so I have never backed a KS before this one and I have a question.

I am already and (EB) Captain and have pledged a few more dollars just to sweeten the pot.

If I want an extra mat (makes sense since 4+ games of WoG are played on 2 mats), do I just pledge an extra generic $20 and when the KS is over, they will ask what I want to do with that? It seems that that is what it says, but I wasn't sure if that was it. It seems there could be a run on certain products if they don't know ahead of time. Like if everyone spent all of their extra pledge on $5 combat rulers, it might be tough to meet that demand on schedule (though deservedly nice for Hajj).

I just want to make sure I do it right since I will probably want an extra mat and the extra terrain pack to support it.


P.S. - Is there a design for the combat rulers yet? Is that the one they show in the videos?

Ares will send a questionnaire at the end. However, they request that you send them a message as well if you know how you want the money to be spent. There is a "Contact Me" link toward the upper right of the page by the Ares logo just near the lower-right corner of the big video.

[Diamondback]

Japheth, it really is as simple as the guys above say--but me personally, I like to include a list of all my prior up-pledges along with it. For example, here's the one I sent last night for decks:


Just added another $60, two more Terrain packs and an advance on four extra Capt/Crew Decks.

Total current pledge and addons so far:
$260 - Captain package
$40 - HMS Victory + USS Constitution combo
$20 - Extra Mat
$5 - Extra Attitude Indicator
$5 - Extra Combat Ruler
$15 - 3x Extra Terrain Pack #1
$20 - 4x Extra Captain/Crew Deck

Thank you,
[NAME CENSORED]

[The Royal Hajj]

Like if everyone spent all of their extra pledge on $5 combat rulers, it might be tough to meet that demand on schedule (though deservedly nice for Hajj).

P.S. - Is there a design for the combat rulers yet? Is that the one they show in the videos?

Yeah, $60k worth of rulers might take me a bit to produce!! :help: Since all of the stretch goals will go into production after the KS is over, there should not be any issues with running out of them. I also don't see any delays on my part, I should have at least a month to produce my components and that is plenty of time.

As for the finial design on the combat ruler, the one in the video is (I'm pretty sure) the final design for the card stock version that will come with the game. The final graphics for the wooden one has not been chosen yet. All of the icons will be the same, but we may spruce it up some since it can't be in color. It all depends on how it looks and how easy it is to read.

[OmegaLazarus]

Thanks for the help guys, especially in locating the 'contact me' button. I added the info on the pledge. I agree with Mr. Cencored that it is good to be explicit when non-F2F purchasing is involved.

I will now have more seas and shoals to rule as Captain

[Sea Gull]

Thanks for the help guys, especially in locating the 'contact me' button. I added the info on the pledge. I agree with Mr. Cencored that it is good to be explicit when non-F2F purchasing is involved.

I will now have more seas and shoals to rule as Captain

I've found it's what the people on this forum and the Wings Aerodrome forum, do really well.

[RichardPF]

Very interesting new stretch goal posted!
Based on Backers not Dollars - Very Nice!

[RichardPF]

Not only is this stretch goal unique in that it is based on backers not dollars, it is also a graduated goal that this one goal applies to more backer pledge levels at higher backer totals.
If the average pledge holds at between $220 and $225, the first threshhold of this goal will be reached at about the same time that the next dollar stretch goal is reached.

I am quite impressed with Ares.

They have resisted adding stretch goals that while exciting the backers and potential backers, would be difficult to actually manufacture in a reasonable time.
They have also upped the level of sophistication of their goal premiums substantially here.
This is an amazingly professional effort from a first time Kickstarter company.
Bravo and well done!

[Sea Gull]

Agree with you wholeheartedly. A, probably, unique approach to a new stretch goal. Very "out-of-the-box" thinking.:salute:

Just waiting for someone to add a comment on the KS asking for a stretch goal of free shipping to EU @ 3000/3500/4000 backers. :takecover:

[RichardPF]

... Just waiting for someone to add a comment on the KS asking for a stretch goal of free shipping to EU @ 3000/3500/4000 backers. :takecover:

I would bet that there just isn't enough margin in this for them to be able to do that at almost any pledge level using the manufacturing/distribution pipeline that is in place.

[Diamondback]

Well, I've been doing some longhand, and based on what can and can't be mopped up later...

If someone asked me for advice about what to add on after their Captain Package, I'd say concentrate on the four exclusives, the maps and the terrain packs--TP's are 50% off MSRP, maps are about 43% off, and normal e-tail is in the 25-35% range. Victory and Constitution, based on worst-case MSRP projection that Rob mentioned, are just under 30% off, and IF we make the "$15 add-on ships" goal that's about 25%-off. For comparison, Keith has said he usually runs about a 29% markdown through AA...

[RichardPF]

Well, I've been doing some longhand, and based on what can and can't be mopped up later...

If someone asked me for advice about what to add on after their Captain Package, I'd say concentrate on the four exclusives, the maps and the terrain packs--TP's are 50% off MSRP, maps are about 43% off, and normal e-tail is in the 25-35% range. Victory and Constitution, based on worst-case MSRP projection that Rob mentioned, are just under 30% off, and IF we make the "$15 add-on ships" goal that's about 25%-off. For comparison, Keith has said he usually runs about a 29% markdown through AA...

You have been doing some impressive analysis.:thumbsup:

What I am basing my recommendation on is looking at the prices being paid for some of the original release Wings of War planes.

In mint condition in the original boxes, the D7's, DR1's, Snipes, Nieuports and even the Rumplers are regularly going on eBay for between $40 and $60.

These have been unavailable from the retail supply chain for about 4 years now (maybe less) and had an original selling price of about $12 to $14 (maybe less).

This represents about a 40% compounded rate of return over that time.

Theoretically, the unavailability period for the exclusives starts the day the KS ends.

Just saying...

[Diamondback]

Right... if you're approaching this as a speculative investor, that IS the way to go--my approach is from the view of a collector first/gamer second who just wants to get his own collection, without the liquidity available that "investment buying" requires.