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RichardPF
03-03-2013, 13:23
So as the imminent release of SoG is getting to be a more real deal I was thinking about the game mechanics and rules. I think that the mechanism from WoW/WoG will adapt very well, but if it is being adapted as is I might have a suggested alteration. I was thinking that because of the reduced pace compared to WWI fighters of ship speed, delay in the relay of order time, and the delay in ship maneuver response to helm and sail, a reasonable alteration to the WoG mechanism might be: Select three cards, play out the first two, (move the unplayed card in position 3 to position 1 and select two cards for positions 2 and 3) and repeat.

OK, Flame Away!

The Royal Hajj
03-03-2013, 21:09
Sounds like that could work for a small delay in reaction. I don't think that Sails is going to be a direct port over of how Wings works. I think they are just using the same game mechanics... the maneuver deck system. For all we know, you could have to plan 4 or 5 cards at a time in these boats! lol

7eat51
03-03-2013, 21:12
In some ways, this is less of a delay than original, for this allows you to give orders basically every two moves, unless I am missing something. I think if you want to create delay, you should commit to four moves ahead as opposed to the anticipated three. This would make it even longer before you could issue new orders for maneuvers.

7eat51
03-03-2013, 21:26
Sounds like that could work for a small delay in reaction. I don't think that Sails is going to be a direct port over of how Wings works. I think they are just using the same game mechanics... the maneuver deck system. For all we know, you could have to plan 4 or 5 cards at a time in these boats! lol

I see you posted while I was writing my previous response. Are there any clues concerning mechanics?

The Royal Hajj
03-03-2013, 21:37
Not as of yet, but I've been asked to do a review of the game during the KS campaign with a pre-production version of the game. So, soon we will know more :D

As for the original post, by not playing that third card right away, and only playing it after you have planned the next two, it delays your reaction time, by putting you "out of line" for the next couple of cards, but not putting you "out of the game" like planning 4 or 5 cards might. They still want this to be a fast pace game. And since planes and ships will never mix, they could make the faster ships just as fast as the fast planes in Wings. It's all relative.

7eat51
03-03-2013, 21:44
Not as of yet, but I've been asked to do a review of the game during the KS campaign with a pre-production version of the game. So, soon we will know more :D

As for the original post, by not playing that third card right away, and only playing it after you have planned the next two, it delays your reaction time, by putting you "out of line" for the next couple of cards, but not putting you "out of the game" like planning 4 or 5 cards might. They still want this to be a fast pace game. And since planes and ships will never mix, they could make the faster ships just as fast as the fast planes in Wings. It's all relative.

Great. Looking forward to the review.

I imagine differences in ship speed or maneuverability would be covered on the cards themselves, such as in WGF? So any mechanism that alters how many cards are put down at a time, etc. would be more focused on order issues. Would that be correct?

RichardPF
03-03-2013, 22:42
As for the original post, by not playing that third card right away, and only playing it after you have planned the next two, it delays your reaction time, by putting you "out of line" for the next couple of cards, but not putting you "out of the game" like planning 4 or 5 cards might. They still want this to be a fast pace game. And since planes and ships will never mix, they could make the faster ships just as fast as the fast planes in Wings. It's all relative.

This was kind of my thought. I have actually flown small single engine planes and been at the helm of larger sailboats and there is a substantial difference in the time delay between plane and ship as to when you decide to do something and when it actually happens between the two. By not playing the third card you are always one more card play removed between when you select the card and when an action actually happens. In other words, after the very first card of the game, the next card you select would never be the next card to be played as it is for 1 or each 3 cards in WoW/WoG.

The Royal Hajj
03-03-2013, 23:17
I imagine differences in ship speed or maneuverability would be covered on the cards themselves, such as in WGF? So any mechanism that alters how many cards are put down at a time, etc. would be more focused on order issues. Would that be correct?

That is correct, just like the differnces between WGF and WGS.


This was kind of my thought. I have actually flown small single engine planes and been at the helm of larger sailboats and there is a substantial difference in the time delay between plane and ship as to when you decide to do something and when it actually happens between the two. By not playing the third card you are always one more card play removed between when you select the card and when an action actually happens. In other words, after the very first card of the game, the next card you select would never be the next card to be played as it is for 1 or each 3 cards in WoW/WoG.

Or between small single engine planes and a C-130! Man that thing starts to turn about 30 seconds after the control input! lol

David Manley
03-03-2013, 23:33
There is no third card. There is not even a second card. Unless things have changed substantially in the last few months a card is selected for the current turn, and not for the any subsequent turn. That may seem "odd" to those of us familiar with WGF and WGS, but remember the timescales in terms of the real time duration of a game turn are orders of magnitude different. And it works really well.

(I'm reviewing as well, but for different places)

7eat51
03-04-2013, 06:12
There is no third card. There is not even a second card. Unless things have changed substantially in the last few months a card is selected for the current turn, and not for the any subsequent turn. That may seem "odd" to those of us familiar with WGF and WGS, but remember the timescales in terms of the real time duration of a game turn are orders of magnitude different. And it works really well.

(I'm reviewing as well, but for different places)

Unless I am missing something here, which I readily admit is very possible, playing one card at a time would enable one to make decisions more quickly than WGF in which one has to play out three cards in advance. With SoG, one could decide on a move immediately after seeing the opponent's next move. This would make sense if the cards are physically longer, for instance, so when one makes a turn, the move is more pronounced so even one card moves the ship quite a bit before one could adjust based on results. Does this make sense?

SeaRoyal20
03-06-2013, 21:45
You can never plan three cards ahead like Wings because you have to deal with your aspect to the wind which can change as you move. Throw in the advanced rules where the wind could shift and that complicates things more. Plus three phases where you move and fire would seems to make reloading too automatic of a process. Contrary to the time compression used in movies, maneuver and fire took time. The one concern I have for this game is that the ships move too fast. The game mechanics that showed up today have lessened those fears.

Eldil
09-19-2013, 10:08
There is no third card. There is not even a second card. Unless things have changed substantially in the last few months a card is selected for the current turn, and not for the any subsequent turn. That may seem "odd" to those of us familiar with WGF and WGS, but remember the timescales in terms of the real time duration of a game turn are orders of magnitude different. And it works really well.

(I'm reviewing as well, but for different places)

This is an older thread, but I thought I'd update since the rules have just been released to kickstarter backers.

* In the "Basic Rules" (the bare-bones introductory rules), you select your maneuver card for that turn and immediately play it (no delay).

* In the "Standard Rules," you start the game with a maneuver card already in play, and the maneuver you select this turn goes into effect next turn (one-turn delay).

The Royal Hajj
09-19-2013, 11:21
* In the "Standard Rules," you start the game with a maneuver card already in play, and the maneuver you select this turn goes into effect next turn (one-turn delay).

Thanks for updating this thread. Just to clear it up a bit more, the Standard and Advanced planning rule in SGN works exactly like WGS if you are familiar with that game.

David Manley
09-19-2013, 12:55
FWIW I find the Basic game approach (single card only) gives a game that "feels" more realistic and true to reports of the time, so our group is using that approach mixed with standard, adcanced and optional rules. That is one of the nice things about the rules; they are pretty modular so it is easy to tailor them to suit your preferences for play..

The Royal Hajj
09-19-2013, 13:00
FWIW I find the Basic game approach (single card only) gives a game that "feels" more realistic and true to reports of the time, so our group is using that approach mixed with standard, adcanced and optional rules. That is one of the nice things about the rules; they are pretty modular so it is easy to tailor them to suit your preferences for play..

So your group finds it more realistic to have no delay between when the order is given and when the ship reacts? Interesting.

Cmmdre
09-19-2013, 13:00
FWIW I find the Basic game approach (single card only) gives a game that "feels" more realistic and true to reports of the time, so our group is using that approach mixed with standard, adcanced and optional rules. That is one of the nice things about the rules; they are pretty modular so it is easy to tailor them to suit your preferences for play..

Thank you for the advice on play David. This advance copy of the rules has stoked the fires and I'm ready to finally play!

David Manley
09-19-2013, 13:15
So your group finds it more realistic to have no delay between when the order is given and when the ship reacts? Interesting.

Given the scale of the game, yes. Remember in this game a turn is several minutes long, not seconds.

The Royal Hajj
09-19-2013, 13:18
So do you make all Actions a single turn event or do you still delay those?

David Manley
09-19-2013, 13:21
In general the rules as written. Most if not all of them are long duration actions so it seems to fit ok

7eat51
09-19-2013, 20:48
David, when you ran demo games, did you employ the one card play?

With a demo game, I wonder how folks would respond if the first four or five turns were single card play, and the remaining turns played with the delay, just to give them a feel for the difference. Does anyone see a problem with this?

David Manley
09-19-2013, 23:59
We used single card play for the demo games. Making a switch part way through shouldn't be a problem

7eat51
09-20-2013, 05:14
I think I will try it then. I think it could be a good experience for those who are totally new to the game, in that they are not WoG players or folks who signed up for the KS. Without getting too involved or complex, it would give them the chance to experience a bit different style of play. When I post the after-con report, I will address their feedback on this.

It will be interesting to see which way my wife and friends prefer - single or one card in queue. A little experiment awaits. Thanks.