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Capn Duff
06-21-2018, 18:35
In a different thread there was the beginning of a discussion about the Spanish fleet and the stats for the ships.
As part of that discussion it was mentioned I had looked into some stats for the Spanish 64 SOL San Leandro

As I believe we are all aware there has been quite a debate reference the Spanish fleet from Ares ranging from the stats and the model size.
This piece will not go into the models but the stats to bring the San Leandro to the table for a Trafalgar game.

I have made a comparison of all the Ares 64 British and French and used this as well as, for a reference, data from the Three Decks website, Rif Winfields French Warships in the Age of Sail, Rif Winfields British Warships in the Age of Sail 1714-1792 and Peter Goodwins The Ships of Trafalagar.

The table shows the ship the no of guns, the Broadside weight in kg, crew , tonnage and guns.
I also took the Ares ship mat for the 64 which cam out like this

Ship Name No of Guns Broadside Wt tonnage Burden 24pdr 18pdr 12pdr 9pdr 8pdr 6pdr 4pdr 24pdrc 18pdrc Crew
HMS Africa 64 307kg 1379 5 26 26 12 2 6 500
HMS Agamemnon 64 307kg 1383 5 26 26 12 2 6 500
HMS America 64 251kg 1369 5 26 26 2 10 500
HMS Argonaut 64 1451 4 26 26 12 500
HMS Polyphemus 64 272kg 1379 5 26 26 12 500
HMS Prothee 64 272kg 1480 4 26 26 12 500
HMS Raisonnable 64 307kg 1385 5 26 26 12 6 500
HMS Vigilant 64 272kg 1376 5 26 26 12 500
Artesien 64 249kg 1100 4 26 28 10 569
Roland 64 249kg 1100 4 26 28 10 569
Protee 64 249kg 1100 4 26 28 10 569
Eveille 64 249kg 1100 4 26 28 10 569

San Leandro 64 277kg 1676 5 26 28 6 4 607


The next table shows the stats on the ship mats for the British and French and at the bottom my proposed stats after a comparison for the San Leandro

Ship Name box1 box2 box3 box4 box5 box6 box7 box8 box9
HMS Africa 3-6-5 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 1-3-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
HMS Agamemnon 3-6-5 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 1-3-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
HMS America 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
HMS Argonaut 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
HMS Polyphemus 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
HMS Prothee 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
HMS Raisonnable 3-6-5 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 1-3-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
HMS Vigilant 3-5-4 3-4-3 3-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1
Artesien 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 0-1-1
Roland 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 0-1-1
Protee 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 0-1-1
Eveille 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 0-1-1

San Leandro 3-5-4 3-4-3 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 1-3-2 1-2-2 1-1-1


So that is my proposal and the stats and references used to give us the San Leandro. I hope this will provoke some further discussion which may lead me to going through the same with the rest of the Spanish fleet.

Apologies here the system have moved everything up to the left and got rid of my columns.
I suggest making a copy and putting into a spreadsheet to see the data correctly.
I will also try to get my mastersheet added to the files.

Bligh
06-22-2018, 01:21
Thank you for all your efforts here Chris.
I will give them a better perusal when I have more time, but they look fairly like what I expected of the Leandro, unless Ares can come back to us with a good reason for their stats.
Rob.

TexaS
06-24-2018, 06:21
Great work there, Chris!

I haven't really looked into the 64s. Are the 64s generally better than the Spanish?

Capn Duff
06-24-2018, 10:38
Not quite sure what you mean there Jonas, but I intend to do a similar comparison to compare all the 74s for each nation using the same criteria and references to see if the Spanish ships require some ammending.

TexaS
06-25-2018, 00:48
What I ment is that I'm not sure if it's just the Spanish ships or all new ships that have stats that doesen't fit with the old ship's stats.

I have just used a few of the post wave 2 ships (like Leander in Battle of the Nile) and never really questioned the stats. Therefore I don't know if the British and French 64 you compare with are "in line" with the old ships. I think they look ok when just eying the numbers, but I'm just saying I don't know and nowadays my confidence in Ares numbers is shaken.

Bligh
06-25-2018, 01:13
I will await Chris's sage like confirmation Jonas, but on having taken a cursory glance at the stats they seem to fit the pattern as far as judging any ships of different rates and sailing qualities can go. I only wish we had more reports or comments from different captains of the time to give more insight onto the peculiarities of a particular ship. Some ships are well documented re sailing qualities but these are few and far between like Prince at Trafalgar, or Superb on the Atlantic chase. Even here we can only surmise that it was the time she had spent on blockade that had caused the dramatic fall off in performance.

All I can say in regard to sailing qualities is "How long is a piece of string?" and leave it to more knowledgeable shipmates her to qualify the answer to your question.
Rob.

Capn Duff
06-25-2018, 03:40
Hi Jonas, I understand now.
The data I provided only compares the published ships and then I made a general assumption to keep the Spanish stats in line with the French and British.
For the other stats for the Spanish 64 I intended to give the burden as 5 due to the ships tonnage and the Veer as 5.
Now the San Leandro was based upon the ship San Idelfonso though a bit smaller, the dimensions show , in our scale the ship being two mm not as wide and afew mm shorter so a bit more manouverable than the 74s, however the Spanish ships all seem to be less manouverable in the game so we may want to keep the veer as 4.
As the San Leandro was based on the Dan Idelfonso lines which was also very similar to the Bahama, again differing in our scale by a couple of mm we can use a Bahama model or a Nepomuceno and adjust the stats so I have kept the manouvre deck the same.
I know the Bahama model is smaller than should be but we have no other models and Ares is not going to recall or remake it at this time.
Therefore we can use this model, if we are prepared to accept the Bahama as a template model for all the Spanish ships at Trafalgar including the Montanes class as the difference in size between all the ships is only a matter of two or three metres, inreal life a big enough distance on our ships almost negligable..

So although not 100% correct but close enough the stats I propose keep the Spanish 64 in line with the 64 already released by Ares. i am looking into the dimemsions further but at the moment i think it will work and be accurate as we can be.

I am in the process now of comparing the Spanish 74 with the released models of the Temeraire and Elizabeth class to see if the Spanish stats need ammending using the same references.
If anyone feels I have missed something or made too much generalisation or fantasy on the stats please say and we can discus to get a concensus.
I am not a statistician and dont have any special access to plans etc but have a few books which
I have used as reference points.

TexaS
06-25-2018, 05:09
I can accept the French and British values and analyse the numbers. These are just opinions!

About the Burden, the British is mixed and not according to weight. This makes it a little bit a choice to make. San Leandro's size and size of the crew of pushes her over to Burden 5.

There are several rows for gunnery, but I'll just compare two.

3-6-5 3-5-4 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 1-3-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 +30kg HMS Raisonnable
3-5-4 3-4-3 3-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 -5kg - HMS Vigilant
3-5-4 3-4-3 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-3 2-3-2 1-3-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 San Leandro
Low - Low - Both - High - High - High - High - Both - Both - Which of the two you followed.

The main difference between Vigilant and San Leandro is that San Leandro has a two more of the quite heavy guns and less smaller guns. Raisonable actually has 70 guns.
Generally I would give the longer stayingpower to the ship with a higher number of guns and therefore rather raise a few numbers early on compared to Vigilant and then fall back to her numbers midway.

My suggestion:
3-6-4 3-5-3 3-4-3 2-4-3 2-3-2 2-2-2 1-2-2 1-2-2 1-1-1 - Vigilant's stats with raised numbers in red.

I'm not 100% sure I like that row, but it's interesting for discussion.

David Manley
06-25-2018, 13:35
Weight of broadside is one measure, not necessarily the best. I've seen "broadside flux" used as well, looking at weight of shot delivered over a set period, which allows rate of fire to be factored in. And modifiers for penetration which can give a better representation - for example factoring in the excellent "armour piercing" qualities of the RN's 24pdr which made it rather more effective than 32 and 36pdrs