Ares Carronade rules

[Capn Duff]

I seem to have mislaid my copy of the proposed carronade rules that Ares put out, can anyone tell me where they are located or send me a copy please.

Have we any house rules finalised for carronade use.
I notice that a couple of AAR have mentioned using double shot with cannister, is this an additional house rule or something I missed from Ares ?

Appreciate any help here

[Aaron]

You can find the official rules in the Historical Scenarios for HMS victory USS Constitution

http://www.aresgames.eu/wp/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php%3fid=SGN000X-HistoricalScenarios-VictoryConstitution-EN-web.pdf

[Capn Duff]

Cheers for that Aaron

[SeaDog7]

You will note in the rules that carronades cannot be loaded with double shot. I believe there are several historical instances where double shot was attempted, but with poor results.

[Bligh]

I use Canister over Ball for the first time in my current AAR Chris. You need to be damned close but it is devastating. It is also historically correct. There are some mentions of Double shot with canister over two balls but I would surmise that this was desperation and may lead to a nasty accident. The reduced charge for short range can only be reduced so much! I would not double charge over chain shot for the same reason. Chain or bar has too much of a problem just getting clear of the gun to risk it.
Rob.

[Bligh]

As far as Canister over Ball in a Carronade was concerned it seems to have been common practice as many well known Captains mention its use in their memoirs Richard. Again I would not risk anything else doubled.
Rob.

[Capn Duff]

I use Canister over Ball for the first time in my current AAR Chris. You need to be damned close but it is devastating. It is also historically correct. There are some mentions of Double shot with canister over two balls but I would surmise that this was desperation and may lead to a nasty accident. The reduced charge for short range can only be reduced so much! I would not double charge over chain shot for the same reason. Chain or bar has too much of a problem just getting clear of the gun to risk it.
Rob.

Yes Rob, I saw that and it looked interesting, historically correct as far as Im aware so a nice rule to use.

[Bligh]

Thanks for the feedback Chris.
Now it has raised its head, why no mention of bar shot in the rules I wonder?
I just love it in both its incarnations.

Typical bar shots.


34031

34030

Rob.

[Aaron]

Wait, I thought Grog rules were already implemented? :drinks:

[Bligh]

Only for those serving tween decks Aaron.:beer:
Bligh.:drinks:

[Dobbs]

Thanks for the feedback Chris.
Now it has raised its head, why no mention of bar shot in the rules I wonder?
I just love it in both its incarnations.

Typical bar shots.


34031

34030

Rob.

My wife, Suzanne, says, "Either one, in significant quantity can do damage!"

[Bligh]

Please give Suzanne Mrs Bligh's complements on her smart riposte.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

I believe there are several historical instances where double shot was attempted, but with poor results.
Tell that to Admiral Villeneuve and his crew who were on the receiving end of a point-blank-range double-shotted ball-and-grape 68-pdr carronade through the stern gallery as Victory's opening shot at Trafalgar... I'll bet their ghosts STILL shake like a dog crappin' razor blades at how that one shot turned their ship into a floating slaughterhouse.

Sort of like a buck-and-ball "duplex load" for a shotgun, but on a horrifically large scale.

[Naharaht]

Truly 'The Grapes of Wrath'. :)

[Diamondback]

Truly 'The Grapes of Wrath'. :)
That was a csadn-grade groaner... he's not even gone a week and you're already trying to take his place as "The Pun-isher"? :p

For Victory's opening shot, they no-crap literally just shoved a keg of musket balls down the muzzle then dropped a ball in front.

[Bligh]

That is on of the reasons why I am disappointed with the Carronade rules. Having played the rule extensively, and taking into account the very valid ""no long range with Carronades" the improved short range ability to fire each turn does not seem to even start to emulate the devastating effects of the weapon. In fact it hardly seems to break even, over ordinary close range fire of all guns double shotted as used in the normal game.
That is why I am allowing ships to double shot Carronades.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Bear in mind, though, those 68-pounders were generally found too big and impractical for use, even 42-pound regular balls taxed gunners' handling ability. I would suspect Nelson called in a few favors to get the two he had...

[DeRuyter]

Tell that to Admiral Villeneuve and his crew who were on the receiving end of a point-blank-range double-shotted ball-and-grape 68-pdr carronade through the stern gallery as Victory's opening shot at Trafalgar... I'll bet their ghosts STILL shake like a dog crappin' razor blades at how that one shot turned their ship into a floating slaughterhouse.

Sort of like a buck-and-ball "duplex load" for a shotgun, but on a horrifically large scale.

Yes but that is grape and ball not double round shot. That is likely what Seadog7 was referring to since grape and ball is not represented in SoG RAW. We're taking a pistol shot range load as well.

[Bligh]

My interpretation of the Double shot rules is slightly different Eric.
The wording is "During setup,add two double shot ammunition counters. (One for each broadside) with the possible ammunition types to choose."

This implies that as the Double shot symbol is quite obvious on the chit, you may add another chit with your choice of ammunition type. I took it that this would exclude Chain shot as this is ostensibly already double shot.

I would welcome any comments from shipmates on this one.

Rob.

[Capn Duff]

Interesting, I have not used the Carronade rules to much extent as yet but thought the fact you could fire them every turn would make up for not allowed double shot.
But obviously not, I will try out the carronades with double shot see if it affects much, plus has anyone tried a house rule using grape and ball as this was also used at close range

[Diamondback]

I'm not A.A., but that's how I've interpreted it. I'll ask Andrea.

[Bligh]

It is not that they don't make up for double shot Chris, it is the fact that at long range they are a disadvantage, so really it evens out the firepower. Carronades should give a clear advantage. Four times the power at short range has been suggested in one tract of the period. Although for game play I think that would unbalance the game too much, I could happily go along with twice the power of long guns. After all they were not known as smashers for nothing.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Rob, here's a quick variation idea: Try double or triple printed value at short range, half at long--see if that works better than the double-or-nothing I had proposed for all-carronade ships.

[Bligh]

That would suit me fine. The half at long would be correct as I see it if top deck was cannonades and lower long guns. Double fire power at short range and Bob's your Aunty. I will run this past Kiwi in our next game. He is the one with the All Carronade Galverino. We know from Cochran's book that it punched above it's weight. Now all we have to settle is the other thorny matter about fore and aft firing not discharging all of a broadside at once. I think the simplest way forward with that is to deduct the number of the fired from the full broadside number and say that is left to fire. ie 2/3/2 Forrard 2 fires. next move you have one shot from the three left if it can be used to hit anything. I know this would not be an accurate representation of guns left to fire but it would at least be a sop to our sensibilities. We tried the idea of full side 7 fore two and aft two but it made the ships far too powerful.
Thanks Rob.

[Diamondback]

Or as an alternate, Center broadside is Long Guns at usual range, Fore is Forecastle carronades at double-or-nothing, Aft is QD carronades same.

I've been thinking to propose a beefier-guns-and-hulls houserule... double printed Burden, and each fire arc loads/fires independently but all firing arcs on same side must attack same target.

[Bligh]

That sorts things out very well DB. I'm sure that would fit the requirements for Captain Kiwi.
Thanks again.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

How's he thinking to do it on Galvarino? My Egmont and Castor need some help...

[DeRuyter]

My interpretation of the Double shot rules is slightly different Eric.
The wording is "During setup,add two double shot ammunition counters. (One for each broadside) with the possible ammunition types to choose."

This implies that as the Double shot symbol is quite obvious on the chit, you may add another chit with your choice of ammunition type. I took it that this would exclude Chain shot as this is ostensibly already double shot.

I would welcome any comments from shipmates on this one.

Rob.

I don't have the rules to hand but the double shot chit represents double shot and there is no need to add an additional chit. Where there may be confusion is over the addition of the double shot language. The sentence "with additional ammunition to choose" refers to the set up not the game play. In game play should you wish to load double shot you select only that chit and that represents double shot rather than that chit plus another ammo type. (if I have not misinterpreted your meaning here).

Think of it this way - if the intention was to allow for ball and grape would not the rule instruct to pull separate damage chits? Why would one need a specific double shot damage bag to pull from for example.

Have said that you could easily house rule this by doing what you suggest and pulling from different damage bags - close range ball and grape for example.


As for carronades I used the term "smasher" on another forum referring to them and someone noted that referred only to Nelson's 68 pdr carronades! I am not sure though as I thought the term came eventually to mean all calibers of carronade. In terms of power one way to look at it is as a shorter (effective) ranged version of the same caliber of long gun. The power magnification being more pronounced for smaller ships.

[Bligh]

DB, Just short range only for all guns. We have no rule for the two long nines chasers. Thought about just draw one A and only count any special damage to masts sails or rudder as a hit but have not had a situation come up to trial it yet.
Rob.

[DeRuyter]

I know this is OT here but just a quick follow on to use of double shot. Having read the rule (p 36) I see the confusion is really over a poor choice of wording, ie; "with" instead of "to" in the bit quoted by Rob. The double shot rule refers in several paragraphs to the "double shot counter" in the singular, rather than ammunition counters plural, which would support the use of only the double shot counter in play. So I take this to mean that you only select the double shot counter when loading that ammunition. Then you pull both A&B chits if in range. I maintain that is the RAW.

Certainly no issue house ruling double by selecting ball and ball or ball and grape. As I think about it that may be better than the RAW, which is after all on optional rule. As to carronades I have read that they were not generally loaded with double ball as that resulted in even less accuracy and penetration. As to grape and ball, we have logs of the Constitution loading ball & grape on the QD carronades and the famous Victory example above.

[Diamondback]

Sent Andrea an email on the 17th, still waiting for reply. When's trade-show season over there?

[AndrewG73]

Just to weigh in on this, I always looked at the double shot as in fact being Double Ball, hence the increased damage multiplier.

I don't however see any problem with allowing ball over grapes an alternative to double ball, but you don't get the damage indicated on the double shot, you instead load one of each counter and apply damage accordingly.

With the carronades, I figure double shotting should be allowed if you take a turn to reload rather than firing each turn, and no double ball allowed to reflect the nature of the barrels.
If playing with advanced rules and orders you could instead allow double shot fire every turn, but have to use a reload and fire order, instead of just a fire order.

The only issue I have with that, is that as I'm sure Bligh will point out, HMS Rainbow with its all carronade setup had a distinctly high weight of metal. That is, it was devastating when they fired at close range.

It's a complicated issue, and I'm actually very keen to have an all carronade English vessel with the relevant expanded fire arcs etc.

(Lots of thoughts in this one, might be a bit disjointed, apologies)

[Bligh]

I am totally with you on this Andrew, and you have outlined it most succinctly.
It will certainly pass for what is said in the Carronade rules with the codicil for Grape as an addendum.
I believe that we should divorce HMS Rainbow from these deliberations, so as to not cloud the water, and deal with this special case as an individual question at a later date or if you so wish in a separate thread.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

I am totally with you on this Andrew, and you have outlined it most succinctly.
It will certainly pass for what is said in the Carronade rules with the codicil for Grape as an addendum.
I believe that we should divorce HMS Rainbow from these deliberations, so as to not cloud the water, and deal with this special case as an individual question at a later date or if you so wish in a separate thread.
Rob.

Quite agreed on splitting All-Carronade ships apart from these Mixed Loads--Castor was bad enough, Rainbow even worse and Egmont would make you need your brown trousers.

[AndrewG73]

Thanks Bligh.

Yes agree entirely on removing all carronade ships from this - they are, as has been noted, an entirely different beast all together.

[TexaS]

And as said earlier, quartering the range instead of halving for double shot would be recommended as the rule already is too powerful.

Compared with real life ranges I would estimate it to be a multiplier of more than ten rather than four between the effective ranges.

[Bligh]

Of course, with my use of Ball and grape this effectively does reduce the range to that of Grape Jonas.
Rob.

[TexaS]

Well...
I think double shot with balls should have had that range to start with.

[AndrewG73]

When ball has the full length of the ruler, it is perfectly justified that double ball is half range.
To argue otherwise send to me to smack of, dare I say it? Sour grapes.

[TexaS]

If you read through the comments on this forum about double shot you will see that as the rules are written they aren't just unbalanced but also not on par with any historical accounts. Double shot was historically used at pistol shot range. If you modify the rules at all, reducing the ranges from what they are written would be a good start.

[AndrewG73]

By historical accounts, most engagements were fought at 'pistol shot' range too, which RAI would be the half ruler.
Far enough apart to not entangle and also far enough apart so boarding actions were unable to take place.
Closer than that is when grape and canister get loaded to kill the boarders massing on deck.

[TexaS]

That's not true. There were many engagements at several cable lengths apart.

[DeRuyter]

When ball has the full length of the ruler, it is perfectly justified that double ball is half range.
To argue otherwise send to me to smack of, dare I say it? Sour grapes.

The problem with this is that double ball is given a greater range than chain or grape, and the same range as carronades. Double ball was very inaccurate and had to be shot with a reduced charge so you had less pen and lower velocity. (There is a thread about double ball and the trajectory issues on the Naval Action forums). I don't believe it was used much as a load out either.

Grape and ball was a much more common load certainly for QD&FC carronades. I like the suggestion that you could add it by loading a ball and grape counter and adding an extra loading phase.

I agree with Jonas that the double shot rule is a bit OP. I general run it using the grape range band and restrict it to the initial broadside.

[Bligh]

Eric.
I certainly like your ideas on grape range band and initial broadside restriction. It would certainly prevent the running amok with double shot every third move throughout a battle, although I find that once that close to the enemy you tend to only have time to reload with single shot anyway or lose targets of opportunity.I am sure that Captains did save it for close in shock tactics.
Rob.

[TexaS]

Eric, that is how I play it too.

That is what I meant with quarter range.

[Capn Duff]

I like the idea of the reduced range of double shot, plus if I got it correct, allowing the double shot to be ball and grape.
However why is the restriction to have it a first broadside. Many accounts show that this was used after initial broadsides once in close and personal range.
Rules as they are , I believe makes an initial broadside with double shot very powerful, a full strength SOL for example with a BS factor of 6 allows the target to take 8 A& 8B chits. Reducing the range to grape range would make it more realistic would it not ?

Also if using the house rule for ball and grape are we saying still use the double shot counter but state it is ball and grape when opening fire?

[AndrewG73]

I'm certainly in favour of double ball for opening salvos only. Whether or not it is played at grape range or half ruler matters little to me. I'd be happy with half ruler range in my own games, and whatever my opponent or the campaign rules allow.

No problem with double shooting for ball and grape etc. later in the game.

[Bligh]

I like the idea of the reduced range of double shot, plus if I got it correct, allowing the double shot to be ball and grape.
However why is the restriction to have it a first broadside. Many accounts show that this was used after initial broadsides once in close and personal range.


I agree Chris. I merely find the chances for this after the first in an action limited by the rapid nature of the exchanges.


Also if using the house rule for ball and grape are we saying still use the double shot counter but state it is ball and grape when opening fire?

I would suggest that as the double shot counter constrains us to ball it is necessary to indicate the option by placing a grape counter under it.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

I have to say, I like the idea of the quarter range for double shot.

When firing grape and solid shot, do you use the A or B chit draw?

Is chain and ball an option? What about double grape or chain? No one ever talks about that.

In an aside, does anyone ever use the Aiming High rule?

[Bligh]

Never tried aiming high Dobbs.
In effect chain shot is already double shot with a chain between the balls.
Bar shot as you illustrated earlier is two half balls with an extendable bar, in some cases fixed bar, so that also effectively precludes the loading of any extra charge into Carronades. For grape and solid I use B for the ball and D for the Grape.
Rob.

[TexaS]

I used aiming high in one of the solo play scenarios. It's in an AAR somewhere.

It worked precisely as you'd expect. It was lousy and mostly just lessened the damage.

In the scenario there was a risk of killing the sought after person if the hull took damage (or some such rule) so it worked for that, but I would NEVER use it otherwise.

[Capn Duff]

Up to now, I also have rarely used aim high or chain shot to be honest.
Never seen it used in a game of any kind at shows etc.

[Bligh]

Now I remember why I never use it or chain shot Jonas and Chris.:takecover:
Rob.

[Dobbs]

Has anyone talked about carronades using A chits at short range, and B chits at chain grape range? I have never used carronades, but avidly follow your conversations, to see if something hooks me in.

I've been thinking about standardizing. Before an engagement, a player states if his ship is armed with: no carronades, 25%, carronades (Guerriere for example), or 50% carronades (Constitution) - round all fractions down, for instance, a broadside of 5 becomes 3 long guns, and 2 carronades for Constitution. This allows creation of a table to reflect whatever portion of your broadside strength is carronades at any strength of broadside.

I haven't given quantifiable thought to ships like the Egmont or Essex yet, but I'm thinking about it. They would certainly be powerful, but Essex was defeated by her opponents staying out of short range.

Mainly I'm interested if anyone has used carronades with the range limitations I've described, or if they have any value.

[Bligh]

The only changes I have made to the Carronade rules Dobbs is to strengthen the Ares ones, E.g. Allowing double shot and Grape to be used.
This because otherwise when play testing I found the minimal advantages of Carronades did not make it worth fielding them.
Rob.

[Dobbs]

Here I thought everyone was saying they were to powerful! Oops, misunderstanding...

[Bligh]

I believe some do Dobbs. I could never subscribe to that opinion.:wink:
Rob.:cannonboom::minis:

[Diamondback]

Has anyone done a side-by-side shootout of identical ships using Standard and Ares Carronade rules, just "trade broadsides and see who sinks first"?

[Bligh]

From the close up effect with random elements taken out and if allowed to double shot your Carronades they have a distinct edge.
If you have to make an approach first and take even only one first time broadside of A chits before you can get up close and friendly you are playing catch up for the entire engagement if you sit there and trade off shots. However, a Captain with a bit of nous can maneuver into a favourable position where his fire every card is an advantage.

Rob.

[Dobbs]

My newest attempt is:

Solid Double shot is two "A" chits at close range, an "A" and "B" at grape range.
Double with grape is an "A" at short, and a "B" and "D" at grape range.
No chain it double shotting.

Carronades: Before play, players decide what percentage of their ship’s broadside is carronades. Carronades may fire every turn, but only at short range or less. Damage at short range uses the “A” chits. When within Chain and Grape range damage uses the B chits.

Carronades my be double shotted, but only with ball and grape. Double shotting a carronade takes an extra turn (it may fire every other turn).

Carronade Table
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
25% - - 1 1 1 2 2 2
50% - 1 1 2 2 3 3 4

If you play with my rules for ships with 12 pdrs and less subtracting from the numerical damage, this makes an all carronade equipped SoW fight much above her weight, since the carronades would be 18 pdrs or better. This is in line with the historical record. It also makes carronades appealing for 32 and 34 gun frigates. For larger ships, the advantage becomes more a matter of the captain's view on tactics.

Since the primary tactic was to get in close before the advent of shell guns, the appeal of carronades is obvious.

An example of the failure of the power of the carronade is in the last engagement of the Constitution, when two carronade equipped post ships tried to take her on. Not being able to stay close and work as a team was their undoing (not that they really had a chance...).