View Full Version : Project Trafalgar
Capn Duff
10-16-2017, 04:08
I intend to start here my project for the main battle in our game.
The battle of Trafalgar Oct 1805.
As this is a large battle involving a large number of SoL getting enough space and players to recreate the entire battle real time would be a daunting task and one I dont expect to realize.
Therefore the intention is to split the project here into a number of discussion points.
This being the introduction
The next three will deal with the fleets and individual ships.
I will list the ship, followed by the Ares model, if available then an alternate model, with pictures, if I can, that I have used to make a ship available.
The rest of the thread I am looking for ideas, of game play, stats etc to make the game possible.
I would like to put this game on at next years Doncaster game if at all possible.
I would like to add this is my interpretation so if you dissagree say so and hopefully we can get things for this project to be a reality with may even do a tour of the uk shows in some form.
Please feel free to add any info or advice which .i will colate and make available.
Capn Duff
10-16-2017, 04:08
British fleet
Weather Column
Victory 3-decker 104 Official SGN Special pack
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35466&d=1518015551
Britannia 3-decker 100 Official SGN108a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35465&d=1518015537
Téméraire 3-decker 98 Non Official SGN108a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35462&d=1518014663
Neptune 3-decker 98 Non Official SGN108a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35453&d=1518014237
Leviathan 2-decker 74 (based on French Courageux) Non official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44398&d=1561565900
Conqueror 2-decker 74 Non official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44399&d=1561565922
Ajax 2-decker 74 ( Bellona class) Non Official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35446&d=1518013696
Orion 2-decker 74 ( Bellona class) Non Official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35454&d=1518014251
Minotaur 2-decker 74 (based on French Courageux) Non official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44400&d=1561565947
Spartiate 2-decker 74 Official SGN102a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35461&d=1518014481
Agamemnon 2-decker 64 Official SGN114a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35445&d=1518013510
Lee Column
Royal Sovereign 3-decker 100 Official SGN108a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35460&d=1518014470
Dreadnought 3-decker 98 Non Official SGN108a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35451&d=1518013928
Prince 3-decker 98 Non Official SGN108c reduced veer by one as a bad sailer
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35459&d=1518014457
Tonnant 2-decker 80 Official SGN115c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35464&d=1518014697
Belleisle 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35447&d=1518013709
Mars 2-decker 74 (similar to Conqueror) a large ship so SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35452&d=1518013940
Bellerophon 2-decker 74 Official SGNKS04 but can use Non Official SGN104c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35448&d=1518013721
Colossus 2-decker 74 (based on French Courageux) Non official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44401&d=1561565979
Achille 2-decker 74 (British Temeraire) Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35443&d=1518013478
Revenge 2-decker 74 ( this was a large 74 so possible to use a temeraire class Non Official SGN102a/b/c)
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36412&d=1521394429
Swiftsure 2-decker 74 Non official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44402&d=1561565993
Defiance 2-decker 74 Official SGNKS04 but can use Non Official SGN104c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35450&d=1518013914
Thunderer 2-decker 74 (Bellona class) Non Official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35463&d=1518014682
Defence 2-decker 74 Official base starter set, can also use Non Official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35449&d=1518013898
Polyphemus 2-decker 64 Official SGN114b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35458&d=1518014441
Africa 2-decker 64 Official SGN114c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35444&d=1518013494
Capn Duff
10-16-2017, 04:08
French Fleet
Bucentaure 2-decker 80 Official SGN115a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35396&d=1517851585
Neptune 2-decker 80 Official SGN115b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35520&d=1518439496
Indomptable 2-decker 80 Non Official SGN115c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38568&d=1530548974
Formidable 2-decker 80 Non Official SGN115c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36411&d=1521394409
Duguay Trouin 2-decker 74 Official SGN102b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35397&d=1517851605
Mont Blanc 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35401&d=1517851692
Héros 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35399&d=1517851646
Scipion 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35404&d=1517851741
Redoutable 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35403&d=1517851724
Fougueux 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35398&d=1517851621
Intrépide 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN112a/b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35400&d=1517851680
Pluton 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35402&d=1517851706
Algésiras 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35393&d=1517851523
Aigle 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35392&d=1517851511
Swiftsure 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN104a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35405&d=1517851752
Argonaute 2-decker 74 Official SGN102c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35406&d=1517853332
Achille 2-decker 74 Non Official SGN102a/b/c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35391&d=1517851491
Berwick 2-decker 74 Official SGN104a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35395&d=1517851570
Capn Duff
10-16-2017, 04:09
Spanish Fleet
Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad 4-decker as no official model, thanks to Clipper we have a good substitute, all praise Clipper and the elves
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=37229&d=1524060707
Principe de Asturias 3-decker 112 Official SGN111c
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35389&d=1517843217
Santa Ana 3-decker 112. Official SGN111a
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35388&d=1517842961
Rayo 3-decker 100. Non official SGN111b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36410&d=1521394388
Argonauta 2-decker 80 Non official SGN112b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41049&d=1541773095
Neptuno 2-decker 80 Non official SGN112b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40557&d=1540219656
Monarca 2-decker 80. Non official SGN112b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41050&d=1541773128
Montañés 2-decker 80 Non official SGN112b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41051&d=1541773149
Bahama 2-decker 74 Official SGN112b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35390&d=1517850526
San Francisco de Asis 2-decker 74 Official SGN112a model debatable too small
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35386&d=1517842932
San Agustin 2-decker 74 Official SGN112b model debatable too small
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35385&d=1517842916
San Juan Nepomuceno 2-decker 74 Official SGN112a model debatable too small
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36413&d=1521394445
San Justo 2-decker 74 Non official SGN112a- length ok but width small by 3mm but will look ok
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36649&d=1522332568
San Ildefonso 2-decker 74 Non official use SGN112b
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35387&d=1517842944
San Leandro 2-decker 64 built to same lines as the Bahama so None official use SGN112b model, needs new stats for a 64
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38569&d=1530548991
Capn Duff
10-16-2017, 04:09
So the game itself has been played at the Doncaster con and the game went very wrll and was very enjoyable for those that took part.
Here I will highlight the special rules that were used for future ref and can then be discussed as required.
The game was set up using the Osprey campaingn series book and the ship locations as at approx 1200.
The table ended up appprox 13 feet North to south and the same west to East.
However the table was set up in a T shape , see the picture.
https://sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39807&d=1537824921
Game play. The rules used were Standard rules adding a box of damage if a fire chit pulled.
Due to the number of players and to assist with speed the British players would choose which column to start the battle, they chose Collingwoods column.
Movement was as the SOG rulebook, each British player taking one ship in the column.
All non player controlled British ships followed the lead ship in line untill a player decided to control the ship.
Nelsons column moved towards the Allied fleet at the same time as Collingwoods column but stopped and remained in situ once the Victory moved into long range of the closest enemy ship.
Collingwoods column was moved in line , each captain choosing a ship.
British ships could load with initial double shot and first fire bonus ( This to simulate the training and sea competncy of the crews - yes it gave the British an advantage but I believe it worked)
Colingwoods column then fought the game against the rear half of the Allied fleet. The plYers controlled their ship moveing and fighting as the rules, then when ships not allocated came within range they chose snother ship to controll.
As the action progressed the lead ships took damage and naturally slowed down letting the rear ships take over, so players only really controlled two ships at any time in action.
One the action petered out , ie the British decided that enough had been done, in our case after 3 hours of gaming. Casualties were noted, but if longer time then the action could continue until the Allied rear broke through or the British cut down the enemy ships.
Once it was decided , not letting any Allied ships breaking through interfere with the Noth end of the battle, the action moved to Belsons column, which was just in long range of the Allied fleet.
Neksons column then engaged the Noth half of the Allies following the same procedure as Collingwoods column
The Franco Spanish fleet would remain static until the British cut the line.
Once the British cut the line the Allied fleet could move and react as per the standard rules of SOG.
However only the immediate ships could react plus any ship in short range if in the line.
The Allied fleet could open fire as normal, but all firing would use the “aim high” optional rule (Here I got things wrong a bit, I intended the rule to be for long range but reverting to normal rules at short range, however the rule in the book should be used at both long and short range.)
The Allied fleet would only fire either ball or grape and not use double shot nor get first fire bonus.
Tbc
David Manley
10-16-2017, 04:41
I would like to put this game on at next years Doncaster game if at all possible.
I suspect the scale of the battle would put it beyond a Doncaster event - I've played Traf through a few times using fast play rules such as FLoB and the record so far is 3 hours. With the detail - and the number of players - for Trafalgar I suspect you'd be looking a twice the length of time at least. So a "standalone" event might be worth thinking about.
If that appealed we do have a free venue with plenty of space, plenty of parking, beer and decent food (plus accommodation for players coming from a distance).......
FWIW we are looking at running Jutland there sometime in the next 12 months as well.
Capn Duff
10-16-2017, 05:56
Thanks for the insight Dave,
The size and scale of the game/ battle I agree is too big to play in its entirety, my initial idea is to have the Franco/Spanish fleet set up and remain static, as per The Nile scenario run at Doncaster, then take one of the two British columns as player ships and play that way with the British trying to destroy take as many enemy as possible in a time limit.
To play with both colums I agree would take a large venue and most likely a weekend, so your input is a starter, I just need to check on game play, hence the thread
The sheer special of seeing the two Fleets in array would be enough for me Chris.
If we did one column attack this year, maybe we could record the finishing positions and scores.
Then we could play the second column attack on the following year. Two for the price of one as they say. At least I won't need to make any coastline this time. :happy:
Rob.
Naharaht
10-17-2017, 01:20
If it could be put on, would it be a World Record?
Certainly for a Sails game, although I expect it has been done with other ships before.
Rob.
Nightmoss
10-17-2017, 07:51
Apologies for butting in, but you might want to check out these Anchorage threads for scale and some added background:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4097-Trafalgar-1805-Scenario-to-be-played-Memorial-Day-Weekend&highlight=trafalgar
Expanded AAR is here:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4121-Trafalgar-2016-The-View-from-Villenueve
Capn Duff
10-17-2017, 08:50
Hi Jim, you not butting in at all, thanks for bringing back these threads, they will assist me in my project. i missed the second write up so good news for me, I hope if I have any questions you can answer.
Ie were any stat adjustments made to the ships and what were used for the ships not yet released ?
From my fleet lists you can see which ships I have not yet assigned a model so any suggestions here?
David Manley
10-17-2017, 12:07
Certainly for a Sails game, although I expect it has been done with other ships before.
Rob.
I once played in a "Close Action" game (an improved version of "Wooden Ships and Iron Men") played out with miniatures in Washington DC that had somewhere in the region of 60 players. That was an absolute epic!
Apologies for butting in, but you might want to check out these Anchorage threads for scale and some added background:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4097-Trafalgar-1805-Scenario-to-be-played-Memorial-Day-Weekend&highlight=trafalgar
Expanded AAR is here:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4121-Trafalgar-2016-The-View-from-Villenueve
Guess that knocks that one on the head then Jim. I knew I had seen a big game somewhere. Just forgot it was yours and Sails to boot.
How many participants did you have? and how long did it take?
It does look superb as I said at the time. I am looking forward to seeing ours in the flesh as it were.
Rob.
Nightmoss
10-17-2017, 15:19
Hi Jim, you not butting in at all, thanks for bringing back these threads, they will assist me in my project. i missed the second write up so good news for me, I hope if I have any questions you can answer.
Ie were any stat adjustments made to the ships and what were used for the ships not yet released ?
From my fleet lists you can see which ships I have not yet assigned a model so any suggestions here?
Guess that knocks that one on the head then Jim. I knew I had seen a big game somewhere. Just forgot it was yours and Sails to boot.
How many participants did you have? and how long did it take?
It does look superb as I said at the time. I am looking forward to seeing ours in the flesh as it were.
Rob.
Just to clarify this project was 100% David's (Walram) and Fred's (fredmiracle). I was invited, but could not attend and really had nothing to do with it beyond egging David to do this after his version of the Nile. From the posts I think Diamondback might have been consulted at some point as well?
Chris I would check with David who I think still occasionally logs in here? Not sure about Fred's presence?
Looking forward to what you come up with for Doncaster next year. :thumbsup:
HMS Goliath
10-18-2017, 15:49
Just my two cents. Anything is possible if people want it bad enough.
Comte de Brueys
10-18-2017, 23:06
I have to study the battle a little bit before writing comments here.
One general thing are the dimensions: size of gaming surface, number of ship and players, enough space for gaming stuff, etc.
It is good to have some positive feedback from yourself and Jim Robert.
As far as the space needed Sven, if we get the run of the big room that we did the Nile in this year we should have plenty of space.
Rob.
Diamondback
10-19-2017, 19:54
I think I contributed a little on ship stats and stand-ins IIRC... when I had started working up my campaign-books idea for pitch to Ares, my first thought was to break each column's action into two scenarios assuming I could find a logical break point.
My original thought was to break Nelson's Column at the point where Nelson died, except that a performance by either side significantly departing from historical outcome could dramatically alter where that point happens. So maybe something like British score 2 Victory Points for each ship sunk, Franco-Spanish 1 for each still afloat when Nelson dies, and for each hitting Musketry attack made on HMS Victory draw an A-chit (or maybe B?) and any Special Damage means keg-'im-up-and-ship-'im-home end-of-game.
I've been following this thread. I'm working on a game tracker app currently that does the advanced combat rules, actions, repairs, grappling. This might speed up your game and log all of the details of the battle. Only negative I see is all game actions would be entered by one person for all of the ships, this might cause a bottleneck. It would save space though.
32978
Capn Duff
10-20-2017, 17:36
Thanks DB and Aaron for looking at my project, I appreciate any comments , tips and critisism.
For game play I was looking at taking one of the British columns moving the ships untill they break the line of the FrancomSpanish, keeping these ships immobile until engaged then allowing them to manouvre, not quite sure yet what "engaged" entails
As it was Collingwoods column who hit first, that is the ships and the lower half of the French/Spanish fleet to start with.
Still mulling over best route that this is my thoughts at present.
Diamondback
10-20-2017, 21:51
not quite sure yet what "engaged" entails
Maybe "enemy ship within two ruler lengths." If that's too generous, try one-and-a-half.
I would take one and a half as the Franco Spanish seemed in the main very sluggish in responding. The few exceptions could be catered for with special rules, suich as "Deft Captain."
Rob.
I would take one and a half as the Franco Spanish seemed in the main very sluggish in responding. The few exceptions could be catered for with special rules, suich as "Deft Captain."
Rob.
"Ships and seamen rot in harbour", as Nelson himself said -- and the Combined Fleet had been penned up for a while.
Not helping was the fact that the battle wouldn't have happened in one of the French admirals hadn't questioned the courage of the Spanish. The barometer had been dropping in the leadup to the battle (the battle itself was quite-literally fought in The Calm Before The Storm), and the Spanish were arguing against going out in such weather. One of the French (Magon, by some accounts) then said, "It is not the glass [a term for the barometer -- CF], but the courage of certain persons which is falling." The next words out of Gravina's mouth: "Mañana al mar!"
The rest, like the Combined Fleet, is history.... >:)
Capn Duff
10-22-2017, 15:35
Yes I like the 1.5 ruler idea, maybe drop to 1 when the ships get in among each other.
I also like the idea of Nelson being picked off if in contact.
I think there should also be a rule for Capt casualty in general, will look into some rules for this.
Anyone got any ideas on the orbat?
Diamondback
10-25-2017, 07:54
Chris, it turns out the SGN112 sculpt is too small even for the Ildefonso and Montanes classes--it's around 10% undersize IIRC, but would be a very close 64.
I checked the the models out and found the problem--Windows displays things scaled like 10% below actual size, the Waves 1/2 original ships were bang on to my printed-out-at-scale drawings (other than the stipulated-oversize Constitution, which happened because of a typo in one of Winfield's books), and while the Waves 3/4 new were undersize to hardcopy they were dead matches to the same drawings on-screen.
Union Jack
10-25-2017, 11:16
Perhaps if we discounted the French/Spanish van (can't remember if they actually got turned round to make a difference or the last ships if they are sailing against the wind). That would reduce the number of ships. Still have them on the table just don't count them in the game unless they are attacked by a player.
Split the players down into 2 teams, 1 per British column. Only play the lead ships with players remainders follow on in column auto pilot. Once a British ship is sunk that player takes over the ship behinfd the rear players ship in whichever column. Leap frogging ships as they are sunk or strike so eventually players will progress back along the column and all get a fair crack at the whip.
French/Spanish ships auto move as they did historically. Ships will engage the nearest British ship and will either a. Sail to close/ b. Sail to escape c. a n other choice.
Using a sheet like Sven produced would keep control of French/Spanish fleets manageable.
Perhaps this could be played as an all day campaign game covering all 3 sessions on 1 table. Players dropping in/out/staying put as they wish.
Just some thoughts in no specific order.
Some very good thoughts there Neil.
I especially like the auto control and Campaign idea.
Rob.
Union Jack
10-26-2017, 01:54
and along comes this......
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4783-SoG-Game-Tracker-App-(windows)&p=73993#post73993
Capn Duff
10-28-2017, 19:00
Chris, it turns out the SGN112 sculpt is too small even for the Ildefonso and Montanes classes--it's around 10% undersize IIRC, but would be a very close 64.
Sorry been away visiting family and just seen this. While it seems now clear why we got undersized ships its still depressing in this day and age that checks were not made, but there we go.
Whats more depressing though DB is that we have 2 models and only one is of use, the Bahama, even worse for me as I bought 5, three for The Montanes group, one for San Ildelfonso and another for the French Intrepide, ah well they now staying as they are
Capn Duff
10-28-2017, 19:05
Nice thoughts Neil, Ill be collating these thoughts and put forward sime plans soon.
I have seen the app and tried to download to dropbox but so far cant get it to work, still trying mind.
A big issue is player numbers,
I never expected to get enough players to do the whole battle, but after playing in the Aboukir game
I liked a lot of Svens working and intend to domsomething similar, if we could get six or more players I still think this could be a viable game, but as you say may need a full day session
David Manley
10-28-2017, 22:43
If an all day thing might it be worth thinking about running as an event in its own right? Perhaps October 21st 2018, which is a Sunday?
Diamondback
10-29-2017, 01:39
Sorry been away visiting family and just seen this. While it seems now clear why we got undersized ships its still depressing in this day and age that checks were not made, but there we go.
Whats more depressing though DB is that we have 2 models and only one is of use, the Bahama, even worse for me as I bought 5, three for The Montanes group, one for San Ildelfonso and another for the French Intrepide, ah well they now staying as they are
What's more depressing is that all future releases will probably be undersize too.
Fun question: How might the battle have gone differently if Nelson had re-used Nile tactics, having half each column break through but the other half turn short so Villeneuve's ships take fire from both directions at once?
What's more depressing is that all future releases will probably be undersize too.
Fun question: How might the battle have gone differently if Nelson had re-used Nile tactics, having half each column break through but the other half turn short so Villeneuve's ships take fire from both directions at once?
Interesting thought DB.
It also poses the question about the possible reduced fire power of a ship needing to man both sides at the same time.
Rob.
Diamondback
10-29-2017, 03:02
What if we made it so each ship got one more Crew Action than stated on the Log but firing each Broadside takes a Crew Action?
I'm also toying with an idea of doubling the "Hit Points", making each fire arc its own separate, independently fired and loaded attack and again, requiring one Crew Action per fire arc but giving a few extras to offset it a little.
The fire arc thing would certainly solve the Bow and stern chaser problem we are having. That would allow a somewhat reduced Main Battery fire even if the fore and aft arc had already done so.
I don't think the crew action would bite until the crew were getting depleted. I would like to see it bite once the first carefully laid broadside had been fired from both sides.
Rob.
Diamondback
10-29-2017, 03:30
I didn't even get to Musket attack for each arc being a separate Crew Action from Gunnery... so if you wanted to fully fire Guns and Muskets from all possible positions that's a dozen CA's burned right there. Hope you don't need to change sail settings, repair, fight fire, pump water, treat wounded...
David Manley
10-29-2017, 04:07
Chris, it turns out the SGN112 sculpt is too small even for the Ildefonso and Montanes classes--it's around 10% undersize IIRC, but would be a very close 64.
I checked the the models out and found the problem--Windows displays things scaled like 10% below actual size, the Waves 1/2 original ships were bang on to my printed-out-at-scale drawings (other than the stipulated-oversize Constitution, which happened because of a typo in one of Winfield's books), and while the Waves 3/4 new were undersize to hardcopy they were dead matches to the same drawings on-screen.
The modeller scaled off a Windows screen rather than using the actual dimensions of the vessel? Really? Who on earth would do that?????? :shock:
Capn Duff
10-29-2017, 05:19
What if we made it so each ship got one more Crew Action than stated on the Log but firing each Broadside takes a Crew Action?
It already does take a crew action to fire each broadside, as well as to load
Diamondback
10-29-2017, 06:01
Then maybe for the number of crew involved, it should be an action per gun deck. I don't know, I'm spitballing--flinging stuff at the wall to see if something sticks.
I didn't even get to Musket attack for each arc being a separate Crew Action from Gunnery... so if you wanted to fully fire Guns and Muskets from all possible positions that's a dozen CA's burned right there. Hope you don't need to change sail settings, repair, fight fire, pump water, treat wounded...
I had not even considered that each arc would consume a crew action DB.:happy:
Rob.
Diamondback
10-29-2017, 06:37
Idea for how to handle wounded crew:
Crew Card: Specialist Crew - Ship's Surgeon. Each turn after the fourth, you may spend a Crew Action to draw one Musketry chit. If the drawn chit is a blank, return one Crew Damage marker to the bag; if the draw is a Crew Hit the damage stays as it was before draw. Return the drawn chit to the bag. You may only remove two Crew Casualties per game with this ability.
New action: Triage Wounded. You may spend a Crew Action (as per Surgeon.) You may only remove one Crew Casualty per game with this ability.
(I'm envisioning a series of Specialist crew cards, who like captains can only be assigned one per ship.)
David Manley
10-29-2017, 06:52
Then maybe for the number of crew involved, it should be an action per gun deck. I don't know, I'm spitballing--flinging stuff at the wall to see if something sticks.
I can perfectly see this working for frigate actions, in fact there are several sets out there for small actions where crew management is a key element. For fleet actions I really don't see it as being something that the players should be worrying about, the game system should effectively "manage" the crew whilst the players concentrate on what their historical counterparts should be doing - fighting the battle. I suppose you could cover it at a high level using a "command aim" approach (similar to how navies actually do prioritise activities on board). For example, there are three broad aims, "float, move and fight" - so you could assign the command priority for each ship through ordering those elements (normally "fight" first - load and fire guns, board, etc.), "move" when crew needed to head into the rigging to change sail, tack etc. and "float" - when damage control is the priority. Something like 4 actions available means you can cover all aims, 2 or 3 means you can do two, one means one only. Still gives you some degree of crew management but without the minutiae that will slow down a large action.
Diamondback
10-29-2017, 07:09
Fair point, DM. Still have the "terminal ballistics" of how to represent the added stresses and strains of fighting both sides of a ship at once on the table at the root of that discussion, though--any ideas on how to represent "crew stretched thin"? Maybe when firing both broadsides they take a few chits' penalty to each attack, representing the slower fire of undermanned guns? (IIRC, the usual was enough crew to fully man one side but at most only partially the other, though I could be mistaken.)
David Manley
10-29-2017, 07:26
For a large action I'd probably go for full effect from one broadside, half effect from a second (or possibly half on both sides to keep it simple). I know wargamers love to delve into details, but you need to remember the role that the players are taking in the game. Its the captain's job to worry about how his ship fits into the battle and what he needs to do to achieve that, then he needs to tell his subordinates what he wants them to do - and then let them get on with it. So it is the first lieutenant and co who translate this into orders, crew direction etc. If the captain of a SOL is doing that he's lost situational awareness of the battle. If you are taking the roles of admirals then the abstraction should be even higher (don't worry about choosing ammunition, "fire on the uproll", put out that fire etc, etc. those are decisions going on within your ships, following your navy's doctrine and you should be well out of that sort of "long screwdriver" management.
I have actually played in a few very large games where crew management within each ship was an aspect of the game - but in that case there was a player for EVERY ship of the line and frigate, as well as flag officers "embarked" in players' ships. The successful fleets were the ones where the captains and admirals remembered their roles and stuck to them; admirals who worried unduly about what things their flag captain should have been doing quickly lost control of the battle.
Capn Duff
10-29-2017, 09:52
If an all day thing might it be worth thinking about running as an event in its own right? Perhaps October 21st 2018, which is a Sunday?
Now that idea I like, a refight on the actual day, pencil in that one Dave
Capn Duff
10-29-2017, 10:07
How does this sound
French and Spanish ships will not move until a British ship moves to within short range, the Allied ship will then be able to plan as normal the following move, but will move to engage a ship engaging it.
All allied firing will use the untried gunners rule when a British ship comes within long range then will use the standard one turn reload when they are specifically engaged by a British ship.
An Allied ship must open fire initially as soon as a British ship comes within range
British ships can use the continuous fire rule once within range but must state they are using this during the planning stage. ( A chit or some such to be used to signify)
Never tried the continuous fire rule Chris so it is hard for me to comment on this aspect. I will leave that to you chaps to sort out.
Rob.
Capn Duff
02-05-2018, 06:21
Assembling the fleets
Here is the start of the fleets, I will add the individual ships to the OB in the first few posts.
For now
The French fleet , named ships rigged and ready
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35383&d=1517836575
The Spanish Fleet
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35384&d=1517836592
Looking good thus far Chris.
On another matter do you have any spare Slop boxes. I put out an APB recently but got no takers.
Rob.
Capn Duff
02-05-2018, 09:56
Hi Rob,
I should have, will check out and let you know, which sloop box you after?
Capn Duff
02-05-2018, 10:59
three more Franco Spanish to come, they need finishing off, later this week Ill get the RN ships done
Hi Rob,
I should have, will check out and let you know, which sloop box you after?
The particular Sloop will not matter Chris. I have two Brigs from Langton's that I want to box for safety so the sail pattern will be different anyway.
Thanks Rob.
Just went and viewed those ships in your album Chris.
They look mighty fine sir.:clap:
Rob.
Capn Duff
02-07-2018, 07:06
The Royal Navy responds
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35442&d=1518012330
Now that is getting serious Chris.:clap:
I'm going to need to re photograph my Navies to show them up to date.
Rob.
Capn Duff
02-12-2018, 05:47
Added my last French ship, only need two more then have all for Trafalgar
French 80 gun Neptune
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=35520&d=1518439496
I can only bow to you in admiration for your perseverance against all the trials and tribulations of assembling these Fleets. I am looking forward to playing in the action at Doncaster.
rob.
Capn Duff
03-18-2018, 11:43
More for the fleets
Rayo
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36410&d=1521394388
San Juan Nepomuceno
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36413&d=1521394445
HMS Revenge
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36412&d=1521394429
Formidable
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36411&d=1521394409
Capn Duff
03-18-2018, 11:58
The fleets are now well established, named ships I am missing the following
British Fleet
Leviathan 2-decker 74 (based on French Courageux)
Conqueror 2-decker 74
Minotaur 2-decker 74 (based on French Courageux)
Colossus 2-decker 74 (based on French Courageux)
Swiftsure 2-decker 74
French Fleet
Indomptable 2-decker 80 Non Official SGN115c
Spanish Fleet
Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad 4-decker until official model possibly use an Ocean class
Argonauta 2-decker 80
Neptuno 2-decker 80
Monarca 2-decker 80
Montañés 2-decker 80
San Leandro 2-decker 64
San Justo 2-decker 74 Non official SGN112a THis one currently being rigged so will be joining the fleet soon
I am curently looking into what already released ships can be used for the missing, For the Spanish Montanes class I am possibly going to see if I can get some Stern castles from Langton for this class and replace them onto some Temeraires or Elizabeths, I am looking at my source books to see which is best fit.
The French are only missing one now which I will see about obtaining as and when I can.
British same as Montanes class checking into which is best fit.
The only real issue is the Spanish 64 as we got nothing in this size Spanish wise so may have to steal one from the British or French. we will see
David Manley
03-18-2018, 12:01
So when (and where) are we doing this? :happy:
Santissima should be much shorter than Ocean.
Theoretically you should be able to add another deck on any Meregildos.
Capn Duff
03-24-2018, 08:55
Been looking at a replacement for the Spanish 64 San Leandro
Using Perter Goodwins Ships of Trafalgar San Leandro is gun deck 53.55 m keel 48m width 14.5 m so in scale
Gundeck 53.5mm
Keel 48mm
Widest 14.5 mm
Closest match SGN 109a
Gundeck 50mm
Keel 49mm
Widest 13mm
So unless anyone got a better idea, I think all that is needed is possibly a new stern from Langtons.
Open to suggestions chaps
Interesting fact: Langton's Spanish stern gallery to first rates are too big for the Sails ships.
I wonder why that is considering the scale difference between the ships in the two ranges?
DB help us in our hour of need!
Rob.
Capn Duff
03-29-2018, 08:11
My last Spanish ship ready
San Justo 74
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=36649&d=1522332568
Yet another fine looking ship Chris.
Well done that man.
Rob.
Capn Duff
03-29-2018, 16:38
Thanks Rob, though just noticed missed a bit of rigging which I will restore today
Capn Duff
04-18-2018, 08:21
The new Santisima build
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=37229&d=1524060707
Also been looking into the Spanish 64 San Leandro, according to Peter Goodwin The Ships of Trafalgar, the San Leandro was built to the samelines as the Bahama, looking at the stats Bahama Length of gundeck 53.55mm widest part 14.48, exactly the same as San Leandro. so if we prepared to accept Bahama we can get another one and we have San Leandro, just need to update the stats as its a 64 gun ship
That is a superb bit of news Chris.
I will get onto that straight away before the lads buy them all up.
Rob.
David Manley
04-18-2018, 11:23
Interesting fact: Langton's Spanish stern gallery to first rates are too big for the Sails ships.
Probably because Rod's models tended to follow a parallel sided arrangement aft of amidships rather than curving inwards towards the stern
Probably because Rod's models tended to follow a parallel sided arrangement aft of amidships rather than curving inwards towards the stern
That combined with the faulty scale on the Sails ships makes the 1:1200 too big for the 1:1000 ships.
It's a pity since Langton's stern galleries are gorgeous and better than the standard Sails ones. At least they fit well on many others.
Capn Duff
07-01-2018, 08:10
I have been looking into replacements for a few ships for this project.
We are all aware of the descrepancy that has crept into the size of the ships, especially the last wave and the Spanish ships.
Therefore I am going to, for my part, use the following due to not knowing what or even if a wave 5 is forthcoming, also personal circumstances may preculde me from partaking in any new release.
Anyway,
I have used The Ships of Trafalgar and British Warships in the age of sail, plus Threedecks as references.
The following is an alternate model for the ships snd is not yet taking into account any change in stats which will be needed
The following two are models slready released
Spartiate. L182’. W49’
Belleraphon L168’ W47’
So we can use the Spartiate model as the following as we are talking a a couple of mm in our scale
Colossus L 180’ W 49’
Conqueror L 176’ W49’
At a push
Leviathan L172’ W48’
Minataur L172’ W48’
Swiftsure L173’ W47’
If you can get one the Belleraphon can be used for below as only 1mm difference or the above at a push.
Thunderer. L 170’ W47’
So I will need another 2 temeraires, possibly 5.
For the Spanish, well the current models are too small in comparison, but as they are the only ones we got we can use the Bahama model for the 4 montanes class and change the stats
Bahama L53m W14m
Montanes L54m W14m so within 1mm and rest of class similar so although not correct we can use until replacements made ( sorry momentary lapse there).
So its up to you if you want to substitute
The Belleraphon is the same model as all British 74, Elizabeth-class etc.
Useful information Chris.
I am now within having or on the way all but two of the British ships.
Rob.
Capn Duff
07-02-2018, 02:14
The Belleraphon is the same model as all British 74, Elizabeth-class etc.
Yes Jonas, but in the UK these are now quite difficult to find unless you prepared to pay silly money, the two reference ships were used to show size and eidth so you can choose the best representation as you wish.
Yes, but you don't need to get one as HMS Bellona is the same model. If you want to make a repaint why choose the rare expensive version of the same model as for example HMS Superb and HMS Goliath?
Capn Duff
07-02-2018, 08:43
I see your point Jonas, was just using the Belleraphon as an example for the length and width as it was at Trafalgar, so yes any Bellona model will do, apologies for any confusion.
Capn Duff
07-02-2018, 10:37
Two more to be added to the fleets
The French Indomptable
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38568&d=1530548974
The Spanish San Leandro 64, there is a seperate thread for the stats I am using as well as the ship log, insert etc
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=38569&d=1530548991
I am now missing the four Spanish Montanes class 80gun SOL and a half dozen British ships.
For these I am going to use 4 x Bahama's for the Montanes
For the Brits 5 x Temeraires and 1 Elizabeth class, that is if I can find any at a reasonable price.
Fight you for them then Chris. With the one due to arrive tomorrow, I'm just four short now.
2 Bordeaux/ Dougay for Mont Blanc and Heros plus whatever I choose for the Leviathan and Minotaur. That looks like it will be Belonas.
Rob.
Capn Duff
07-03-2018, 03:57
In my un-named box I have one each of a Temeraire, Bahama and Elizabeth, so I got three more from the missing 9
I just ordered two Spartiates from Entoyment so hopefully that just leaves two Duguay Trouins to get although I can't find them anywhere. Looks as if I may have to go States side again for those.
Rob.
Capn Duff
09-16-2018, 04:46
Well have now completed all the fleets ready for Doncaster.
The last pics will be posted shortly. All bar 1 are official SoG models. I know that a number are not truly correct, the Spanish Montanes for example but I do believe at this scale they will be a close representation, close enough for me anyway.
I intend to take a number of pics st the Doncaster con next weekend and see how my gameplan works, or doesnt, then all being wel, I shall liaise with DM to see about a possability of a full game at his pub venue in Oct or Nov. We will see want to try out the game mechanics first.
:salute: Right Chris.
And I will provide the drinks as usual.:drinks:
Rob.
I'm looking forward to seeing your photos. I hope everyone has an enjoyable time!
Comte de Brueys
09-16-2018, 09:07
I wish you alll a most successful Trafalgar mission in Doncaster and I'm curious for the AAR & the pictures.
:salute:
Thanks shipmates. Chris and I are just sorry that you cannot be with us this year. I will put your Cognac to one side for you my dear Comte.
Bligh.
Comte de Brueys
09-17-2018, 12:39
Thank you, Sir. :salute:
Mutiple reasons keep me away from Doncaster this year.
Beside this - situation in work intensified a little bit the last weeks because my deputy has massive problems with shiftwork/work at night and a reliable personal support isn't available before March 2019. :sad:
So I'm content not to be forced to cancel my attendance in last minute.
My dear Comte,
Here at the Admiralty we are very cognizant of your unfortunate position regarding the forthcoming event, and can empathize fully with your situation. We can only wish for your well being and success in your current difficult enterprise. We trust that we may avail ourselves of your excellent company and bonhomie in the not too distant future.
Pp. Their Lordships of the Admiralty.
Your obedient servant,
Wm. Bligh. Admiral of the Blue.
Naharaht
09-23-2018, 21:01
The starting set up for the Battle of Trafalgar at Doncaster.
39771
The British fleet.
39772
The French and Spanish fleet.
39773
39774
Capn Duff
09-24-2018, 15:50
Here are the first of my pics of the Trafalgar game from Doncaster the weekend just gone.
Complete Panorama of the battle
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39807&d=1537824921
The Allied center with the British approaching
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39808&d=1537824952
The front half of the Allied fleet, British in the background
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39809&d=1537824977
The rear of the Allied Fleet, the rear end of the British columns in the background
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39810&d=1537824996
Looking from north to South along the Franco Spanish Line, the two British columns to the right
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=39811&d=1537825017
Capn Duff
09-24-2018, 15:51
More pics of the action will be forth coming
Great to see pictures!
Whish I could have been there. At least I have just switched assignment at the job, so now I'm hoping for free time and no more working weekends. Time for more sails.
Can hardly wait...
Comte de Brueys
09-24-2018, 23:55
Incredible, Chris. :shock:
A great project came to a realisation.
The look on those ships in Doncaster given an inside view how it has been in the real battle. A horizont full of sails - thousands of mean ready to fight and a few captains holding the fate of their men and ships in hand. :salute:
And here is Chris being presented with the Admiral's prize for the best battle of the year.
Bligh.
39880
39881
Capn Duff
10-01-2018, 18:37
I have added the game play special rules to post 5
TwoSheets
10-12-2018, 07:57
Incredible looking game, well done Chris!
Capn Duff
10-22-2018, 08:53
here is another of the Trafalgar ships, the 80 gun Neptuno
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=40557&d=1540219656
The model is one of the Bahama types, using Peter Goodwins "Ships of Trafalgar" the difference between the Bahama and the Montanes class is almost, I say almost , negligible. The real issue is that I believe the actual Bahama model is shorter than it should be, but without other options I made do.
so for the time being at least you can use a Bahama for the four Montanes ships. changing the stats slightly, if you are happy to accept the Bahama as is.
Capn Duff
11-09-2018, 07:26
The last three Spanish ships
Argonauta
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41049&d=1541773095
Monarca
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41050&d=1541773128
Montanes
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=41051&d=1541773149
Yes these no totally correct but at least they are representative and worked.
So thats all the spanish and French ships represented.
Hi Chris,
I'm interested to know which ship you (or anyone else for that matter) use for the
Spanish ship Rayo and if/how you've modified it from the standard base ship.
Also if you have modified any stats, the firing arcs and/or sailing angles from the host.
Being pretty much a single type ship I don't see an actual ship for it for some time, if ever.
Capn Duff
11-10-2018, 01:57
Hi Alan
For Rayo I used SGN111b San Carlos
Using three decks as ref
San Carlos
Length of Gundeck205' 5"Burgos Feet57.1362 (187′ 5″ Imperial)
Length of Keel183' 9"Burgos Feet50.9863 (167′ 3″ Imperial)
Breadth54' 7"Burgos Feet15.085 (49′ 5″ Imperial)
Depth in Hold27' 6"Burgos Feet7.5421 (24′ 8″ Imperial)
Burthen2,308Tons BM
Armament
1787Broadside Weight = 1188 Spanish libre (1281.852 lbs 545.292 kg)B002Gun Deck30 Spanish 36-Pounder
Gun Deck32 Spanish 24-Pounder
Gun Deck32 Spanish 12-Pounder
Gun Deck18 Spanish 8-Pounder
Crew Complement 1787 878
Rayo using Goodwins Ships of Trafalgar
Length of Gundeck 189’
Length of Keel 165’
Breadth 57’ 14.89
Depth in Hold28' 3".
Burthen 1889 tons
Armament
1787Broadside Weight = 1010 Lbs
Gun Deck30 Spanish 36-Pounder
Gun Deck30 Spanish 18-Pounder
Gun Deck6 Spanish 18-Pounder carronades
Gun Deck32 Spanish 8-Pounder
Crew Complement. 1805. 830men
So in size the ships are within a couple of mm in this scale the main difference being crew, armament and weight of shot.
To account for this I subtracted 1 from each value in the firing values
For the crew I changed the initial number of boxs by one removing the first 4 box for actions and muskets.
This gave the stats, for ne anyway, a feel for larger than the Montanes ships and Smaller than the Meregildos.
The sailing burden Etc I kept as San Carlos.
I followed Chris when I did mine as well.
Rob.
Diamondback
11-12-2018, 18:14
The real issue is that I believe the actual Bahama model is shorter than it should be,
Not "believe," amigo, PROVEN FACT. All of Wave 3 are significantly undersize because of a measuring error introduced by Windows screen scaling (Windows automatically presents everything at something like 90% "actual" size), but Bahama in particular is scaled based on her dimensions as a 64-gunner as laid down rather than a 74 as taken.
I have a suspicion that even though I told Ares *exactly* what was wrong, that this underscaling is "the new normal"... :( This is why YOU CANNOT JUST PUT A RULER ON YOUR COMPUTER SCREEN TO TAKE MEASUREMENTS!
Oh DB! You have just destroyed my belief in Wysiwyg, Santa Clause and the Easter Beagle all in one.
Seriously though, I also get the same problem when designing ship cards. Despite sizing them exactly according to Photoshop measurements they invariably print out with a sizing error, which has to be corrected.
Thank you for taking the time to fully explain why the issue occurred though. I wonder at which stage of production this gaffe was made?
Rob.
Diamondback
11-13-2018, 01:05
Rob, try scaling up by 105 to 110% and see what that does for you. Alternately, put together a 1" scale bar on your screen (viewed at "actual size", what MS Paint calls a 1" measurement straight line, then take a pair of calipers and measure that line's actual length. A quick bit of division to find the reciprocal (1 / [measurement]), scale up to that percentage (ie, 1.05 = 105%) and Bob's Yer Uncle... for that specific computer at least.
Thanks DB.
I will give it a go.
Maybe there is an Easter Beagle after all.
Rob.
My photoshop sizing is spot on. I would recommend that you check your print settings. There are a few options you should make sure you don't use like "Fit to page"
Thanks for that help too Jonas.
I will check for sure.
this has all happened since I had my new printer.
Rob.
Fit to page puts your "page" within the magins of the printed page, ie sized down. There's also the old A4 or US Letter page size question that could affect the outcome.
Cheers Jonas.
I knew about the A4 size problem because the Printer prog always defaults to the 4.5 inch scale when you set the quality setting so it needs adjusting last of all or it comes out too big again.
Rob.
Capn Duff
06-26-2019, 10:28
at last pics of the missing ships from the Brit orbat
HMS Swiftsure
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44402&d=1561565993
HMS Colossus
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44401&d=1561565979
HMS Minotaur
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44400&d=1561565947
HMS conqueror
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44399&d=1561565922
HMS Leviathan
https://www.sailsofglory.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=44398&d=1561565900
So thats a pic of every Ship of the Line that we used for the Trafalagar game and is a model of every Ship of the Line that took part in the actual battle, I didn not use any Frigates
any questions I am available to answer, these have been added to post 2 and the orbat now complete
:salute:Well done sir. This was indeed a marathon effort to collect the ships let alone to rig them all.
A very impressive array indeed.:minis:
Bligh.:hatsoff::hatsoff::hatsoff:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.