San Ildefonso Ship of the line

[Capn Duff]

Been doing a little reading of late and came across Wiki stating that the San Ildefonso was the class of vessel that Bahama was part of.
Further searching I found some stats in the Winfield Bristish Warships in the age of Sail book which showed both ships, as they were both captured at Trafalgar.

The San Ildefonso works out around being a metre or so smaller than Bahama which equates to 1mm and a tad lighter. This being due to materials in building as the Spanish navy wanted to try and match the RN equivalent ships for speed

San Ildefonso 175' 5.5", 140' 3", 48' 5.5" , 1751 tons
Bahama. 175' 1" , 144'9.5", 48' 2", 1786 tons

San Ildefonso LD 28x32p, UD 30x18p, QD 6x12p with 8x32p howitzers, this equates to Brit carronades I think. FC 2x12p+ 2x32p howitzers

Bahama. LD 28x32p, UD 30x18p, QD 6x12p with 8x32p howitzers, FC 2x12p+ 2x32p howitzers

The San Ildefonso was supposedly classed as a 74 but equiped with 80 guns, however I not found the info to show what the armamentvwas except that in Winfields book, but I am still looking
So I would suggest another Bahama model and we can tick another ship off the Trafalgar list having the San Ildefonso.
If it floats your boat so to speak, another HMS Bahama model and you can use it as HMS Ildefonso, as she was named after Trafalgar.

Of course if any one has further info saying this is not possible due to whatever reason, please say so, otherwise
I am looking for another Bahama to increase my Trafalgar fleets with the San Ildefonso

[Bligh]

Nice pick up Chris.
I may well have some of that as our Spanish quota still looks a bit slim even for friendly actions.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

The first Ildefonsos were built as 74's, the last four (Montanes class) were 80's--only minor changes to bow and ballast. Dimensionally ThreeDecks has Ildefonso a Burgos foot beamier but otherwise virtually identical to Bahama as-built, though somehow between then and her taking the older ship gained about a half-meter in length and beam.

Bahama was laid down before Ildefonso was even designed--the former started as a San Pedro de Alcantara 64 built according to Francisco Gautier's construction practices (the "Gautier System"), but *may* have been converted into a 74 while building. It may also be that Landa, when designing Ildefonso, looked to Bahama for ideas and inspiration... we can't really be sure unless we can find somebody who speaks technical Spanish and get them On The Ground in Madrid to access the Spanish naval archives.

I'm sorry, but Beware of Wikipedia--lots of errors, and lots of folks who make those errors that are overprotective of their content. That said, I'm sure that Roberto at Ares would be overjoyed at the idea of rerunning SGN112 as Ildefonsos and tamping down some of the criticism without having to eat a whole tool's cost as a loss... speaking of which, my report on that matter is just waiting for Subject Matter Expert confirmation on a couple things before I finalize and deliver it, and forty-eight hours after Roberto has it you here will too.

Howitzers were indirect-fire weapons just like their modern namesakes and those useless French obusiers.

[Bligh]

Thanks for the clarification DB. Looks promising then.
Rob.

[Capn Duff]

Cheers DB, I understand that Wiki is not fool proof nor definitive, I used the info , when I found it, as a starting point and now looking at my other books, keeping Winfield as my primary.
It really is a shame we cannot get access to a translated Spanish source, but until then we can always hope.

I know what a howitzer is and its use from land warfare perspective, wasnt sure how it equated naval wise.
Winfield says carronades but I wasnt sure the Spanish navy used carronades also at this time.

[Diamondback]

No scans yet, but here's a model Greenwich has of Ildefonso from their old Trafalgar diorama:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/539239.html

Best plan will be here when scanned (as converted to victualling depot; never saw warship service):
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/458455.html

Bahama broadside as taken:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/551/media-551191/large.jpg

Ildefonso model fwd port and aft starboard quarters:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/652/media-652921/large.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/652/media-652924/large.jpg

Bear in mind these models are very small and not necessarily the most accurate renditions, dating back to the 1850s, but here's Gautier's San Justo for comparison from the same display.
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/653/media-653101/large.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/653/media-653104/large.jpg

I would venture them to be superficially similar, enough so that if I were driving the bus at Ares I would quietly replace the Gautier 74s with Ildefonsos on the next run of SGN112, simultaneously offering Correction Logs to bring the existing releases in line and then giving the old bigger Gautier ships a new, bigger sculpt.

[Bligh]

Seems that you have come up with a very good answer to the problem DB.
If I were Ares I would take up your idea and be very thankful for the chance to get out of the do do.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Found a couple links to OcCre wood kits...

Ildefonso - http://www.occreusa.com/sanIldefonso.html
http://www.occreusa.com/images/sanIldefonso/sanIldefonso.jpg

Montanes - http://www.occreusa.com/montanes.html
http://www.occreusa.com/images/Montanes/principal.jpg

The Artesania Latina kit of Nepomuceno, do take viewing angle into account - http://www.agesofsail.com/ecommerce/artesania-latina-san-juan-nepomuceno.html
http://w.mawebcenters.com/static/ecommerce/87/87868/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/a/r/artlatjuan.jpg

For comparison, NMM J2634 Bahama draught:
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/551/media-551191/large.jpg

Ares SGN112:
http://www.aresgames.eu/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/800x600-sails_of_glory-SGN112C.jpg

Landa's designs seem to have a bit of a wider "bubble-butt" gallery swell-out than the older designs.

Port Counts, excluding FC's
DeckA.L. NepomucenuJ2634 BahamaOccre IldefonsoOccre Montanes
QD66??
UD15151515
LD14141414
Can't see the QD's on the Occre models clear enough to get port-counts there

I've provided what data I can, now you guys get to sort out what you think the existing model best fits. I do know that this is a wave with a lot of reprint potential and Ares is NOT going to just scrap one or two tool-sets... they'd more likely throw up hands in frustration and retire the whole wave. I may be just pulling thing out my arse here as a non-SME lacking a detail eye, but to me what we have *looks* more like an Ildefonso with the bubble-butt gallery, so here's what I'm thinking to put into my report to Ares.


RECOMMENDATIONS FOR SGN112: While the miniature is very undersize for a Gautier 74, its size and shape look like a reasonably close Ildefonso or Montanes--just over 2mm underlength, which is about where most folks at the Anchorage say they'll tolerate a little "fudging." What I would propose to do is that the next run we use Ildefonso and Montanes names, retiring the existing SKUs and cutting a bigger Gautier 74 sculpt in a later release, along with offering a "Make-Up Pack" giving SGN112A two new Ildefonso names, 112B a new Ildefonso back-side and replacing HMS San Juan with HMS Ildefonso as the back side of SGN112C. The guys who don't care will use what comes in the box, but for the vocal crowd that does giving them the option to replace the logs with an Official Ares Product, even if only a digital download*, will I think help move many of them back toward the "favorable" side of the ledger.
*As a side note, I think this would be a perfect opportunity to test digital distribution of additional Ship Log/Card/Base Insert options as a way to encourage more sales. There are a lot of people out there that want more ships, but are unwilling or unable to create their own logs or use "Non-Official Product," and I think additional logs with new names and stats would give people more reason to buy more than just "one or maybe two of each."

[Naharaht]

The National Maritime Museum, Greenwich has a diagram of the Montanes, a 74 built in 1794.

29239

[Bligh]

I am also with you on this one DB.
That is the logical approach as far as I can see.
Two great ideas in one day!
You been eating fish again?
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Rob, if I had been eating fish the violent allergic reaction would see me confined to the loo, crapper under one end and barf-trap trashcan under the other. :( But your comment's high praise... :)

David, technically Montanes was the first of four 80s built from the basic Ildefonso design, but excellent find. If only they had a scale for that drawing so I could rescale it...

[Capn Duff]

Has anyone got a copy of the the book The Ships of Trafalgar by Peter Goodwin?
I believe this book has plans and details and stats of all the ships that took part, including the Spanish .
Heard of it but not seen, is it worth searching out ?

[David Manley]

It is , and I think I have a copy somewhere. Saying it has plans of "all" of the ships is a bit optimistic. It is good on the British ships, less so on the Allied vessels. But worth getting if you can find a decent second hand copy

[Diamondback]

Chris, it might be helpful. Finding a copy at a good price, though... the best I've found is $50 *used*, and I'm not sure how much more library-building my budget can take at that rate.

[Capn Duff]

:thumbsup: cheers Dave
:thumbsup: cheers DB

[Bligh]

None at Speedy Hen Chris, but Amazon have them at £35.

Rob.

[Bligh]

I have one now Chris.

It arrived today
What do you need?

29463


Rob.

[Capn Duff]

Does it give any details on the San Ildelfonso and what other ships in the class?

Does it give any technical details of the French and Spanish ships so we can see if any other ships match current sculpts?

Is it worth the pennies for avlayman like myself ?

[Diamondback]

Montanes group: Montanes, Monarca, Neptuno, Argonauta.

Original eight: Ildefonso, Intrepido (French Intrepide at Trafalgar), San Telmo, San Francisco de Paula, Europa, Conquistador (to France 1802), Infante don Pelayo (to France 1802), ?Soberano, ?San Antonio (to France 1801)

64-gunner scaled-down version: San Leandro, San Fulgencio, 1788 San Pedro de Alcantara, ?Asia

Technicals on Ildefonso as taken: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=6350 About 53m long, same as Bahama.

[Capn Duff]

Cheers DB, I could not find that info except that there were 8 ships originally and about the later 64 but not the names, now .i can see what I can fudge with the ones I have

[Bligh]

The book has plans of the following ships Chris.

Santisima Trinidad.

Principe De Asturias.

Santa Ana.

Rayo.

Montanez.

Bahama.

Monarca.

San Ildefonso.

SanJuan Nepomuceno.

San Leandro.

I will photo copy them over the next few days and post what I can on the specs, when I come back from my operation.
Rob.

[Niek_vD]

Been doing a little reading of late and came across Wiki stating that the San Ildefonso was the class of vessel that Bahama was part of.
Further searching I found some stats in the Winfield Bristish Warships in the age of Sail book which showed both ships, as they were both captured at Trafalgar.

The San Ildefonso works out around being a metre or so smaller than Bahama which equates to 1mm and a tad lighter. This being due to materials in building as the Spanish navy wanted to try and match the RN equivalent ships for speed

San Ildefonso 175' 5.5", 140' 3", 48' 5.5" , 1751 tons
Bahama. 175' 1" , 144'9.5", 48' 2", 1786 tons

San Ildefonso LD 28x32p, UD 30x18p, QD 6x12p with 8x32p howitzers, this equates to Brit carronades I think. FC 2x12p+ 2x32p howitzers

Bahama. LD 28x32p, UD 30x18p, QD 6x12p with 8x32p howitzers, FC 2x12p+ 2x32p howitzers

The San Ildefonso was supposedly classed as a 74 but equiped with 80 guns, however I not found the info to show what the armamentvwas except that in Winfields book, but I am still looking
So I would suggest another Bahama model and we can tick another ship off the Trafalgar list having the San Ildefonso.
If it floats your boat so to speak, another HMS Bahama model and you can use it as HMS Ildefonso, as she was named after Trafalgar.

Of course if any one has further info saying this is not possible due to whatever reason, please say so, otherwise
I am looking for another Bahama to increase my Trafalgar fleets with the San Ildefonso

This looks like the British armament. The Spanish did not have 32-pounders. May I recommend https://www.todoababor.es/listado/index.htm for Spanish gunnery details.

Standard Spanish armament for a 74 was 28x24p, 30x18p, 8x8p, all in Spanish pounds, making a broadside of 647 British pounds, rather less than the 781 British pounds for a British common 74. This was the situation at Cape St. Vincent 1797.

In 1805, all Spanish 74s had howitzers or carronades added. Bahama for instance carried 6x30p howitzers, 4x24p howitzers, and 4x4p howitzers. San Francisco de Asis and San Justo were similarly armed.

In addition, some carried 36-pounders instead of 24-pounders on the lower deck: Montanez, San Augustin, and San Juan Nepomucheno.

San Ildefonso carried 24-pounders on the upper deck as well as on the lower deck.

Bahama and Monarca are variously reported in my sources with either 18-pounders or 24-pounders on the upper deck, and 24-pounders on the lower deck.

[Capn Duff]

Great, thanks Niek, all information greatfully received.
My main source for data are the Rif Winfield books so any other data especially from non uk sources, gratefully received.

[Capn Duff]

Montanes group: Montanes, Monarca, Neptuno, Argonauta.

Original eight: Ildefonso, Intrepido (French Intrepide at Trafalgar), San Telmo, San Francisco de Paula, Europa, Conquistador (to France 1802), Infante don Pelayo (to France 1802), ?Soberano, ?San Antonio (to France 1801)

64-gunner scaled-down version: San Leandro, San Fulgencio, 1788 San Pedro de Alcantara, ?Asia

Technicals on Ildefonso as taken: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=6350 About 53m long, same as Bahama.

So am I correct here in saying we can use SGN112 as Spanish San Ildelfonso, Bahama, also French ship Intrepide (a simple reflag), Spanish 74, Montañés , Spanish 80 Argonauta, Neptuno and Monarca ?
Keeping sculpts as they are and making new base plates, mats and ship cards.
Then hope Ares take up your suggestion and publish a new sculpt for the current SGN112 ?

[Diamondback]

I believe so, also that IDP became Desaix under the tricolor. San Antonio became St. Antoine--but don't bet on the ships with question marks, which shopuld include SPdA too. Montanes is an 80 also, not a 74--unlike a French or British 80 with an extra pair on each deck, IIRC the Spanish just chucked three more pairs onto the gaillards, much like turning a 26-gun frigate into a 32 or a 32 into a light 38. But in a nutshell, yes, keep the plastic and gin up substitute paper I think *should* be acceptable.

What I would propose to do:
--SGN112A: Retire, reassign log to SGNxxx new-sculpt Gautier Large 74.
--SGN112B: Becomes 112B(A), amended, with an Ildefonso replacing Bahama's current packmate.
--SGN112C: Becomes 112C(A), HMS Ildefonso replacing HMS San Juan. Not that none of these ships ever sailed again, so they're basically limited to What If and scenario pieces!
--New SGN112D pack: French flags, Intrepide and either Desaix or ex-Conquistador.
--SGN112E, F, G, H: Four packs with an Ildefonso one side and a Montanes the other.
--SGN112I, J, K: Three packs with Ildefonso one side, San Leandro 64 the other.
--SGN112L and beyond depend on what I find out about San Antonio and Soberano--possibly one more SKU each Spanish and French.

[Bligh]

Here is what I found on the Ildefonso from Goodwin. Not all that I had hoped for.

29530

29529

Rob.

[Bligh]

Here is a photo of the model of Ildefonso in the Museo Naval de Madrid, taken from Goodwin, to compare with the Maritime Museum one.


29531


Rob.

[Diamondback]

Rob, I think the Greenwich models, the display creator just ran all the 74s for both sides to the same design--and that drawing matches the description Greenwich has or their drawing of Ildefonso.

[Bligh]

That is interesting DB. I think that the Ildefonso plan is the least useful in the pack as it only shows the Depot ship version. If you think it worth while my posting the plans of any of the other ships i listed let me know and I will do the same sort of presentation. I just don't know how much other people already have.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

If you can find plans for San Juan Nepomuceno or any of the other 1750s-early-70s vintage 74's, those might be a bigger help. *I* won't be able to do much without scale data and original dimensions, but at least we can compare overall shapes. For the Ildefonsos, I'm ready to let Montanes define their shape as what paleo-geeks call a "holotype specimen."

[Niek_vD]

Great, thanks Niek, all information greatfully received.
My main source for data are the Rif Winfield books so any other data especially from non uk sources, gratefully received.

My pleasure, Capn Duff. Alas, I do not speak Spanish either, but I do have enough French to go along. Gun lists are easily translated if you know that "obus" is howitzer. Note that 'toneladas' are only roughly equivalent to 'tons' in the British system (fortunately, enough Spanish ships were captured to make a good estimate for individual ships, see other posts in this thread). James gives the Spanish pound as 1/72 heavier than the British pound (so multiply Spanish pounds by 73/72 for the British equivalent).

For those looking for pictures, the Spanish ministry of Defence published a booklet Militares y Navios Espanoles que participaron en Trafalgar by Luis Aragon Martin for the Bicentennial in 2005. The second part on the ships can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070413060640/www.mde.es/Trafalgar/Docs/MNE_2.pdf

The first part, on the sailors, can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20091122172610/http://www.mde.es/Trafalgar/Docs/MNE_1.pdf

Enjoy!

[Capn Duff]

Excellent once more Niek, the second link will help Bligh who has a thread on the captains of various ships in the actions during the wars and he has been looking for pictures of ship Captains.

[pajaromuerto]

I've been reading this old post, and would love to have any cooked-up Ship Logs and maybe cards for the San Ildefonsos, Montañés, and San Leandro 64's, if any of you sea gentlemen and gentleladies have made them. Do they exist?

If someone has maybe just come up with the stats, I could volunteer to make a few Ship Logs and make them available :-)

I'd love to repaint a few third rates for the Armada del Rey.


What I would propose to do:
--SGN112A: Retire, reassign log to SGNxxx new-sculpt Gautier Large 74.
--SGN112B: Becomes 112B(A), amended, with an Ildefonso replacing Bahama's current packmate.
--SGN112C: Becomes 112C(A), HMS Ildefonso replacing HMS San Juan. Not that none of these ships ever sailed again, so they're basically limited to What If and scenario pieces!
--New SGN112D pack: French flags, Intrepide and either Desaix or ex-Conquistador.
--SGN112E, F, G, H: Four packs with an Ildefonso one side and a Montanes the other.
--SGN112I, J, K: Three packs with Ildefonso one side, San Leandro 64 the other.
--SGN112L and beyond depend on what I find out about San Antonio and Soberano--possibly one more SKU each Spanish and French.

[Bligh]

Here is the Ildefonso stats.

43722

[Capn Duff]

Hi Rolando,
I have ship cards, base inserts and logs for all the Spanish ships that took part at the battle of Trafalgar, if you would like a copy of these pm me your email and I will send you on a word doc, already to print out.
Same for anyone else.

I have available cards , logs and insets for all my fleets, check out the thread my fleets updated for a full list.
As I have a number of repaints, reflags and renamed ships I also have a number of original cards and insets if anyone needs spares pm me and I will see what I can do.

[pajaromuerto]

Here is the Ildefonso stats.

43722

Ooo, sorry, I meant the burden, veer, gun and personnel stats, like 4-6-4, 3-5-4, etc., 4,4,3,3,3,3,2,2,1,1 in the musketry fields... That I could maybe make them into a nice Ship Mat with Adobe Illustrator.

–Rolando

[pajaromuerto]

Thanks, Chris! I'll message you now :)


Hi Rolando,
I have ship cards, base inserts and logs for all the Spanish ships that took part at the battle of Trafalgar, if you would like a copy of these pm me your email and I will send you on a word doc, already to print out.
Same for anyone else.

[Capn Duff]

No probs Rolando, just be aware though after a debate on this forum, it was deemed the Spanish ships were a bit overpowerful and some adjustments were made

[Capn Duff]

Also if you would like to see the Spanish ships of the line take a look at my thread Project Trafalgar, there is a pic of each ship and what model is the best representative for all of them