Proposed Alternate Carronade Rule

[jazerjay]

What do you think of this for carronades:

1. Prior to battle, determine the number of broadside firepower to be designated as corronades
2. This number is only fully effective at C/D range and fires the same way as double shot (taking that many A and B damage)
3. This number is half effective, rounding up, at B range. Again, acting like double shot
4. This number has no effect at long range, only your regular cannon fire is
5. Carronades can be fired every turn, as long as the appropriate fire or reload command is planned, regular cannons still require a reload
6. Carronades can be fired out of the fire arc within the ruler's width, same as Ares proposed rules. I like this rule, sort of simulates bow and stern chasers.
7. As damage is taken, the carronades are the first number to be reduced-as they were most likely on the top deck and likely to take damage/killed crew

Example:

1. HMS Vangaurd starts at 4/6/4, 2 firepower is designated as carronades. At C/D range she inflicts a full broadside damage of 4 B chits and 2 A and B chits.

2. On the next turn, she can again inflict 2 A and B chits at the same range while the long guns are being reloaded (a reload command was planned). If she was to use her bow guns, a 4, 2 would long guns and 2 would be carronades; same for the stern guns.

3. After 2 damage boxes are filled, her firepower is reduced to 3/5/4, meaning she has a carronade power of 1/1/2 remaining. After 6 damage boxes are filled, a remaining firepoer of 2/3/2 means no more carronade fire, or most likely at this point, a reload or fire command will not be able to be played due to a shortage of crew and commands.

I think this could give an advantage to a smaller ship that keeps all it's long guns versus a larger ship that may have more carronades. Plus it could change up the variety of each ship a little as well.

What do you think? Suggestions/criticisms welcome.

[Bligh]

:thumbsup: I like the soundness of your idea Carl, and it seems to fit most of what we have discussed without being over complex. Also the idea of retaining the good bits of the new rules on Carronades. I just wonder if in the heat of battle the maths when reducing the firepower might not be made a little more simple in some way. i can't think how this could be achieved, but any further suggestions would be interesting.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Interesting approach, the rub is historically carronades weren't traded for guns piecemeal but rather all-at-once or upperworks (quarterdeck/forecastle or spar-deck) only.

Not trying to dis ya just because of a competing idea--it does have merit, and I'd love to see your rules and mine competitively playtested to figure out their relative strengths and weaknesses. :)

[jazerjay]

I seem to recall some statistics from a few ships, maybe French, that only carried a few carronades and the majority long guns. I agree historical accuracy is critical, but at the same time trying to keep the game a little flexible and adding some variety and "surprise." Pun intended.

I really like your original proposal back in 2013/14, but that would completely change the ship logs. I may play around with that a little. Did you ever play test those?

[David Manley]

The French came very late to the carronade party. What they did use though was a weapon called the obusier, similar in concept but so inadequate that history has practically forgotten it.

[Diamondback]

I didn't, but Nightmoss found it straightforward but impractical--overpowered when in range, but near impossible to use because everybody else would just stay out of range and wear you down with A-chit hits. The current version I offered was an attempt to blend that original work with Ares's.

[Bligh]

Great DB.
I will bear this in mind when I leave all my French ships with long guns.:wink:
That should give them a good chance to shine at long range.
Rob.

[Capn Duff]

Just a quick question here, why are we saying that carronades are double shotted for damage, I understood the adavantage of carronades was quick to load and needed less crew to service, not that they had greater firepower, or was the example just assuming double shot would be used ?

[Bligh]

What I tried with my Carronade on the Solo game was Double shotted for the opening exchange, and then treated it like the ordinary rules given by Ares Chris. Only single but quicker to reload. I suppose you could say they could be double and fire as often as the normal guns, but I thought this would add too much of an advantage although they were often double shotted with Cannister in real battles, which I can only assume was very quick to load. The search and swab would also be quicker with the shorter barrel.
Rob.

[jazerjay]

I was always under the impression that carronades were more powerful and caused more damage than a long gun, so that's why I set it up for double shot. However, after some play testing, I ran into a few snags. Namely, the carronades are grossly overpowered, being able to fire every turn, there is little reason for anyone to choose to have any long guns, or at least a minimum count. Also, I found it cumbersome to keep track of how many now and stern guns would count as carronades as damage was taken. I feel like this could use some work....or a complete overhaul!! Haha!

[Bligh]

I must say that is why I went for the easy option in my trial, and just ascribed 50% of my guns as Carronades.
If using double shot could only fire as fast as the long guns took to reload single shot. It worked with only one ship in the Squadron with Carronades but I would not fancy a lot of them to manage without some sort of markers.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Jay, would you mind giving my newer version a test? Yes, it involves some math and a revised log--tell me what your test ships are and I'll do the numbers for you so all you have to do is write 'em down and start tossing chits. :)

[jazerjay]

Absolutely! I'll try yours out next cruise.

[Capn Duff]

Hmm as per Ares th Carronades cant be double shottted, also for the more powerful aspect wil this not be simulated as the can fire every turn.
I also will try out DB rules my next sail, I like the idea of Carronades so looking forward to trying them out

[Hjl]

I'm pretty interested to try these out. I think I'll have one ship equipped with them as a test run in the next monthly campaign battle.

[Bligh]

Hmm as per Ares th Carronades cant be double shottted, also for the more powerful aspect wil this not be simulated as the can fire every turn.
I also will try out DB rules my next sail, I like the idea of Carronades so looking forward to trying them out

I thought that the fire every turn was to simulate the faster loading of cannonades Chris. As for double shot, you are quite correct, the Ares rules say no double, but are incorrect at least as far as Hail shot/ grape is concerned. I have no information about ball other than Seafaring novels. Bar or Chain shot is effectively double shot anyway.
Rob.

[Hjl]

If you think about it, there really should be some sort of rule for loading ball and canister at once. Takes two turns to load and you draw what ever chits for your range for ball and the grape shot chits if you are within range for them.

[Capn Duff]

The trouble being if you can load double shot and allow fire every turn for Carronades, will we start over complicating the system.
Carronades fire every turn, loaded with double shot they then same as standard guns, but the extra damage will make the games even more bloodier than they are now.
By allowing the Carronades fire every turn will this not simulate both the easier loading and more powerful shot ?
I also agree we should have a ball/ cannister rule, obviously only range of cannister but would anyone bother loading it as per chain shot. As yet I have never seen this ammo loaded in a game

[jazerjay]

I have to plead ignorance here, what is canister shot?

[TexaS]

Grape in the game.

Chris, I used it once in a game in the 2015 campaign to capture a ship I hoped not to sink.

[Bligh]

The trouble being if you can load double shot and allow fire every turn for Carronades, will we start over complicating the system.
Carronades fire every turn, loaded with double shot they then same as standard guns, but the extra damage will make the games even more bloodier than they are now.
By allowing the Carronades fire every turn will this not simulate both the easier loading and more powerful shot ?
I also agree we should have a ball/ cannister rule, obviously only range of cannister but would anyone bother loading it as per chain shot. As yet I have never seen this ammo loaded in a game

The way I played it was, Carronades each turn, unless loading with double shot in which case they take as long as ordinary guns, thus either each turn with one ball or every time the long guns fire with double shot.
In the actual scenario, I actually only used the Carronades double shotted on the first broadside, when they like the long guns had been pre loaded. I don't use the extra width of target rule but stick within the angles on the ship cards.
Rob.

[Hjl]

I used chain once as an experiment but found that simply aiming high was far more effective. It had a longer range and could be used in either situation without pre planning.

I have used ball a few times. Mostly when I'm going up against a ship that I know I won't hulk. Ball from a pair of frigates across the decks of even a 1st is nothing to laugh at.

[Bligh]

I did a series of draws for the various short range weapons, and none really give an advantage over ball in the long run.
Rob.

[jazerjay]

I have always felt that chain and grape (canister) are under utilized and/or effective. You need to be so close to actually use it and it's not nearly as devastating as ball. Plus by the time you can actually get into range, your opponent has torn you to shreds with A and B ball. I experimented once with chain being able to be used at B range, but again, under effective. I kind of feel like we are missing something simple here... I'll noodle this a bit more.

[Hjl]

Let me do some math on it. Ill post my findings.

edit: ok so.

A frigate firing at close range (in range of C and D chits) to a 1st rate.

assume a broadside of 3 a Burden of 6 and 12 crew boxes:

total of 66 damage points
12 crew points

B chits:
an avg of 0.27 crew dmg per shot
an avg of 0.7 hull dmg per shot

31 full broadsides to hull it
15 to decrew

C chits:
an avg of 0.43 crew dmg per shot
an avg of 0.5 hull dmg per shot

44 full broadsides to hull it
9 to decrew


As you can see from the above, C chits (grape) become very useful for taking on ships that you have no chance of hulking. Even if you were to consider fire and flood damage from B chits, there is no way that the damage output is going to get anywhere close to C.

For totaly unbalanced fights i would say that getting up close and using C is the only way to stand a chance at all. Ofcourse your more than likely going to get reduced to kindling by the first return broadside.

3 Frigates using C chits, assuming they can stay in range, should be able to decrew a 1st before it can destroy them all if they use C and get no where near doing it if they use B

[Diamondback]

I thought Burden was both Hull And Crew, though--so you have 66 points on each damage-track. Maybe I need a refresher, though... wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last.

[Hjl]

Huh, if that's true then I have been playing it wrong from the start!

[Bligh]

So have I.
I have it that one crew chit closes a crew box.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

I'll fire off a note to A.A. and ask--with all the 20-hour Running on Catnaps and Caffeine days having to think in three different timezones scattered near-equidistant around the world (Ares in Italy, my mom's overseas contract for Japan and Seattle local) plus a fourth in-between (my gal, East Coast), my brain is somewhat fried. :) (Even more nuisance when you consider on the latter I promised I'd have something hot and naughty written for her within the first half of this week... and I have a nasty case of writer's block.)

[Hjl]

I'm pretty sure it's one chit per box for crew. I read through the damage rules and it doesn't mention burden for crew at all.

[Capn Duff]

This could be throwing said cat amongst, I always took it to be a crew chit filled one box, going to go through the rulebook again myself

[Hjl]

24378

Ok, we were correct. Phew!


Ok so, with that now cleared up. There are definite uses for grape shot. I'm going to try it in a game today.

[Bligh]

Well done those men.
I'm sure you will let us know your results Hugh.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Thanks, guys. :) Guess I need to redesign some campaign tools I've been working on.

[Dobbs]

Let me do some math on it. Ill post my findings.

C chits:
an avg of 0.43 crew dmg per shot
an avg of 0.5 hull dmg per shot

44 full broadsides to hull it
9 to decrew


As you can see from the above, C chits (grape) become very useful for taking on ships that you have no chance of hulking. Even if you were to consider fire and flood damage from B chits, there is no way that the damage output is going to get anywhere close to C.

For totaly unbalanced fights i would say that getting up close and using C is the only way to stand a chance at all. Ofcourse your more than likely going to get reduced to kindling by the first return broadside.

3 Frigates using C chits, assuming they can stay in range, should be able to decrew a 1st before it can destroy them all if they use C and get no where near doing it if they use B

Hi Hugh, in reading over this, I realized, "C" chits are chain shot. "D" chits are grape shot. I look forward to hearing the modified results.

[Hjl]

OH really? That is interesting. I will do the analysis with grape as well then!

[Hjl]

This table shows the average number of broadsides fired by a three shot frigate required to defeat a 1st rate sol.

24402

as you can see, grape (D) is even more effective than chain (C). In almost every situation that you are outgunned and can get in range grape is going to benefit you more than ball.

edit.

Here is a more complete table, the values represent the number of broadsides required by each damage type to bring down the relevant ship. The assumed value for the full broadside here is 3.
24403

The table above shows that in almost all situations grape is superior to ball if you are close enough. This should stand true regardless of what ship rate is firing. Ofcourse these numbers are ideal for hull damage. They do not factor in wasted damage from over filling boxes. They also do not factor in fire damage. I believe that even with those two factors included that ball would still take longer to bring down a ship than grape would.

This has been pretty enlightening for me.

Now, if you were to double shot grape with chain or grape with grape then those numbers would be truly terrifying. This is probably why you cant in the rules. a 1st rate firing a double shotted ball and grape would, on average, do 6 points of crew damage per broadside, and grape-grape would deal 8!!

[Bligh]

That is amazing Hugh.
I am going to have to completely revise my strategy for close range fighting.
Rob.

[Hjl]

That is amazing Hugh.
I am going to have to completely revise my strategy for close range fighting.
Rob.

Its a curse. I dont seem to be able to play a game without breaking it down to numbers and calculating the optimums. It makes my game much stronger but takes away some of the mystery.

[Bligh]

Seems more like a gift to me.:happy:
Rob.

[Capn Duff]

Hmm very interesting reading and I applaude your calculations.
However the trick is getting close enough to fire your grape, I would estimate and I do mean estimate the enemy ship could get in two braodsides before you get into that range and then would not just sit there taking grape without reprisal.
So yes I can understand maybe three frigates taking down a 1st or 3rd rate, I shall have to have a go and see the results.
Nicely done Hugh

[Diamondback]

The other trick is, get in a good Stern Rake with Grape--or maybe Chain to hamstring their maneuverability while you tack back around to administer grapeshot-enema.

Double-shotted Graped Carronade Stern Rake... remember Bucentaure at Trafalgar?

[Hjl]

The range of C/D is very limited and that is a serious down side to them. I think if you are trying to board an opponent that you should load grade, fire muskets and then take care of the rest with a boarding action. Seems like that could be very effective.

[Bligh]

The other trick is, get in a good Stern Rake with Grape--or maybe Chain to hamstring their maneuverability while you tack back around to administer grapeshot-enema.

Double-shotted Graped Carronade Stern Rake... remember Bucentaure at Trafalgar?

I agree DB, but the rules do not seem to allow for any double shotted ammunition but ball, and for Carronades nothing is mentioned about double shot at all. I did allow it for first broadside in my action, however.
Have you ant extra pearls of wisdom to shed on this, because I'm sure at least grape could be double shotted from a carronade as you suggest.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

I'd be inclined to allow it on an Opening Salvo. Limits power, but makes it available for a Nelsonian In With A BANG... though I think it was only done because Nelson's entire plan was to hold until he had that 68-pounder practically crammed up Villeneuve's alimentary canal before opening fire.

I'm making notes on things in case anybody ever feels like paying me for the great deal of time and labor in creating a line of campaign books, and that's near the start of my notes on Trafalgar. Sorry, guys, these kind of undertakings are big enough, and my financials awkward enough, that I can't AFFORD to give that kind of time and effort away. (Anybody feels like making an offer, *hint hint Andrea and Roberto wink wink nudge nudge :) *, you know how to reach me... )

The other problem is, there might be no point in racking up too many crew hits in one salvo... if I draw three crew chits does that immediately KO three boxes, or is it like Hull where you only count enough to fill the current box and discard the rest? Otherwise... well, I get that the game wants to prevent One Shot Kills but like Bucentaure they *did* happen once in a very great while.

[Bligh]

Even more interesting reflections DB.
I have restricted mine as I said, and think I'll stick to that rule mainly for the reasons you give. After all he who gets his blow in first etc. But will as you say not entirely ruin the flow of the game.
Thanks for the answer, and I trust someone will come forward to act as a sponger for your grand enterprise. in the meantime all I can do is say thanks in the only way open to me.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Yeah... I hate to sound mercenary, but as much as I want to do that project I simply cannot afford the lost billable-hours of time that would be sunk into it just for my own amusement with the primary income of the household squarely in the crosshairs for the next round of Targeted Layoffs. :(

[Hjl]

The other problem is, there might be no point in racking up too many crew hits in one salvo... if I draw three crew chits does that immediately KO three boxes, or is it like Hull where you only count enough to fill the current box and discard the rest? .

If im understanding correctly them the answer to your question is that crew and hull act differently. Each hull box is filled when the damage adds up to more than the burden. The rules state that one crew box is filled by one token and has no relation to the burden.

Those of course are the rules as written, a lot of us have customized our rules here and there to better suit our individual demands.

[Diamondback]

Let's take an example... We're going to use an extrapolation of Ares' methods for 1782 HMS Egmont, a 74 loaded with carronades from keel to gunwales. She's got 6 chits to throw every turn at B-range. Let's allow a Double-Shot first turn, and assume she's trading broadsides at Grapeshot Range. That's TWELVE chances at Crew Kill chits. 43% chance of Crew Damage on any one chit means a Damage Expectancy of 5 crew-boxes eliminated just in her opening salvo, even more on a Stern Rake. And you can expect around 2-3 more the next fire-phase, and every shot thereafter, so taken down to half in the first volley and completely slaughtered two shots later... anybody else seeing concerns here?

[Hjl]

Absolutely. I mentioned earlier that this is probably why it wasnt included in the rules. Its horribly over powered.

[Diamondback]

On the other hand, let's take a 7-firepower First Rate, done under their rules and DS'ed, trying to replicate Victory's first shot. Again, we'll Double Grape. 7/2 rounded = 4, so that's 8 chits for three boxes knocked off first round, at ten to kill a typical Third Rate about 1.7/shot thereafter, so... four or five turns to completely decrew Bucentaure.

[Bligh]

This last seems more like what I would expect DB.
The first model is way over powered.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

They're both faithful replications of their historical loads, though--actually, the First Rate less so because the QD/FC carronades were only a fraction of the total throw. I would venture that on an SOL or two-decker cruiser their real use was more decrewing and pont-defense against small-ship threats like a modern Close-In Weapons System than as part of the broadside.

[Bligh]

The more that I trial them, the more I am coming to the same conclusion DB.
Rob.

[Hjl]

Ok guys, here is my AAR of two frigates using primarily grapeshot vs a 3rd rate.

--->Link (http://www.sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?4180-HMS-Unite-and-Cleopatra-vs-Aquilon&p=63519#post63519)<---

[Diamondback]

That one musta been a fat payday in Prize Money... :)

[Bligh]

A very interesting trial Hugh.
Seems to prove your point.
I must see if I can get a similar result.
Rob.

[Hjl]

It is anecdotal evidence, but I think it shows that grape does hold value.

I'd love to see your experiences.

[Bligh]

As soon as we get back from Scotland I will conduct some sea trials.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Any updates on trials? :)

I also have an idea for a house-rule on Victory's 68-lb. carronades at Trafalgar: In Fore arc ONLY, may throw one additional B, C or D chit at B range per fire/reload action. Unique to 1805 Victory. (Though I'm inclined to give that ability to 1782 Egmont too... give some "difference".)

[Bligh]

That would indeed be an interesting amendment to the rules DB.
I will also give that a whizz next time I use Victory in a game.

I'm afraid the trials are a bit delayed, as Mrs Bligh needed the games table for some quilt making project. That is a trade off for my having the largest table in the house under play mats for most of the year.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Headsup, some other ideas barfed up oer in the Wardroom too. :)

[Bligh]

Had a look but could not see anything obvious in the WR DB even after doing an advanced search.
Could you perchance give us a lead on in which thread it is to be found?
Thanks,
Rob.

[Diamondback]

Rob, that was Stats Committee--some quick-and-dirty work on Upbore 32's and Large 74's. :) Starting to think maybe we need to rethink the committee, as dead as it seems... :(

[Bligh]

Thanks for that DB.
Looks as if you are the Stats Committee to me.
Who were the other members?

[Diamondback]

You, David M, Jonas and I think maybe Eric other than myself--and while data-mining is something I do very well, me converting it to game stats is iffy.

[TexaS]

I read the posts but haven't really put in any time to think it over.

I'm not either really sure what kind of answer is expected to the latest posts. It's more like statements than questions.

[Diamondback]

Sorry, Jonas--intent was more spit-balling ideas, throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what sticks if anything. :)

[Bligh]

Just as an aside gentlemen, Sealegs now going under the name of Captain Whistle Blower and i tried conclusions with three 74s a side today. We used the strict Carronade rules for the British and the Spanish used normal weapons.
When I get time to transmit the photos to Cpt Whistle Blower I will advise you about his AAR.
Rob.