Advanced Carronade Rules proposal

[Diamondback]

As noted on the New Historical Scenarios discussion, I think Ares is off to a good start with their new Carronade rules but could use a minor tweak, as it overstates carronade power on larger ships.

Not a problem, I've got a simple fix: two-deck cruisers and SOL's change the split from 1/2 to 1/3, three-deckers from 1/2 to 1/4. There were also cases of multi-deck ships being rearmed with all-carronade loads, these will be marked with an asterisk in the table below.

A ship with Full Carronades simply skips the split, uses its full numbers for Carronades and loses any Long Range attack. You are not required to declare whether you are using Full, Partial or No Carronades on any ship in your fleet until that ship fires for the first time.


SKU/ShipFull GundecksNo CarronadesAres Carronades
Carronades/GunsProp. Revised Carronades
Carronades/Guns
SGN101132/12/1
SGN102274/33/4
SGN103142/22/2
SGN103 Embuscade132/12/1
*SGN103 as HMS Castor 1808142/24/0
SGN104263/32/4
*SGN104 as HMS Egmont 1782263/36/0
SGN105142/22/2
SGN106374/32/5
SGN107121/11/1
SGN108374/32/5
SGN108 Ville de Paris374/32/5
SGN108 Hibernia384/42/6
SGN201A Victory3
SGN201B Victory 18053
SGN202A Constitution1
SGN202B Constitution 1812163/33/3









I don't have Victory or Constitution stats in front of me, but I'll add them when I do.

[fredmiracle]

Yes that is better--their rule seems to have only been thinking about frigates

[Bligh]

Found this nice picture of a Carronade on HMS. Victory.


24098

Rob.

[Diamondback]

And you can tell that that particular 68 has had some sighting upgrades installed--most of the problems with carronade range and accuracy were not so much the weapon itself as the limited sighting technology of the day and the cheapass bastards at the Admiralty of the time's unwillingness to invest in anything better than "what we've always used and Has Always Been Good Enough Before *harrumph*."

Not the ideal of the full length for sight radius, but probably still better than what that weapon was ordered and forged with.

[Dobbs]

Outstanding list! I was going to compile something like that myself. Thanks for doing it DB.

[Kentop]

Your list makes much more sense. I've been replaying the USS Constitution Guerriere battle a bunch of times and getting more comfortable with carronades. Your list provides very interesting scenarios with ships of the line. Great work!

The point of carronades was that it added destructive power at short range. But the carronade rules don't address that. If that is true, then you should get to draw extra damage chits for every zero damage chit drawn like you do with the good aim crew card. That would make it actually worthwhile to have short range guns aboard.

[Dobbs]

Shouldn't there also be a list of ships that stuck with long guns for their secondary battery, or pre-carronade list. I think, for instance, that Constitution started her life with a spar deck of long guns and the carronades replaced them. Also, the sloops often only carried long guns.

[Diamondback]

As built, the Humpreys superfrigates carried 32 24-pounders on the main deck, secondary on United States and President at completion was 22-24x 42# carronade. Constitution alone started with long-gun secondaries, a mix of 12# (14) and 18# (16) so these were technically 50-gun ships from square one, just sold as "44 guns" to look less "aggressive" to the isolationist politicians of the day.

[Bligh]

And you can tell that that particular 68 has had some sighting upgrades installed--most of the problems with carronade range and accuracy were not so much the weapon itself as the limited sighting technology of the day and the cheapass bastards at the Admiralty of the time's unwillingness to invest in anything better than "what we've always used and Has Always Been Good Enough Before *harrumph*."

Not the ideal of the full length for sight radius, but probably still better than what that weapon was ordered and forged with.

I was surprised to see that although upgraded with an elementary gun sight it was quoin operated, and still had no elevating screw.
Rob.:question:

[Capn Duff]

I shall try out these rules my next outing, thanks for the info DB

[Diamondback]

Just a note, the numbers in the table are Box 1 Center Broadside only, I need to sit down with a verified log-data spreadsheet and crunch the numbers for each individual ship, box and arc. The math's not complicated, but it takes a little sitting down with the calculator until you get used to it. :)

--DB, the Mathematically Declined Who Needed Three Tries To Beat Calculus Through His Thick Skull

[Dobbs]

With these rules, it actually makes Constitution stronger than a 3rd rate at close range. That doesn't seem right.

[Diamondback]

True... Though you can still add a gun attack on top of that every other turn, which almost levels the playing field again. On carronade throws alone, Constitution outguns even Hibernia... but once Hibernia reloads Constitution becomes a boatload of toothpicks.

Real world data: If memory serves, a Humpreys 44 at max typically carried more carronade bores than a normally-carronaded 74 or three-decker... the difference is made when you add the mainbores into the mix.

3 every turn and three more every other vs 2 every turn plus 4 every other. Or take Egmont: 6 every turn but no long-range...

[Diamondback]

SKU/ShipFull GundecksTurn 1
Full2
Carr. Only3
Full4
Carr. Only5
Full6
Carr. Only7
Full8
Carr. Only9
Full10
Carr. Only
SGN1011
2crde + 1gun2+1
32
52+1
82
102+1
132
152+1
182
202+1
232
25
SGN1022
3crde + 4gun3+4
73
103+4
173
203+4
273
303+4
373
403+4
473
50
SGN1031
2crde + 2gun2+2
42
62+2
102
122+2
162
182+2
222
242+2
282
30
SGN103 Embuscade1
2crde + 1gun2+1
32
52+1
82
102+1
132
152+1
182
202+1
232
25
*SGN103 as HMS Castor 18081
4crde + 0gun4
44
84
124
164
204
244
284
324
364
40
SGN1042
2crde + 4gun2+4
62
82+4
142
162+4
222
242+4
302
322+4
382
40
*SGN104 as HMS Egmont 17822
6crde + 0gun6
66
126
186
246
306
366
426
486
546
60
SGN1051
2crde + 2gun2+2
42
62+2
102
122+2
162
182+2
222
242+2
282
30
SGN1063
2crde + 5gun2+5
72
92+5
162
182+5
252
272+5
342
362+5
432
45
SGN1071
1crde + 1gun1+1
21
31+1
51
61+1
81
91+1
111
121+1
141
15
SGN1083
2crde + 5gun2+5
72
92+5
162
182+5
252
272+5
342
362+5
432
45
SGN108 Ville de Paris3
2crde + 5gun2+5
72
92+5
162
182+5
252
272+5
342
362+5
432
45
SGN108 Hibernia3
2crde + 6gun2+6
82
102+6
182
202+6
282
302+6
382
402+6
482
50
SGN201A Victory3
SGN201B Victory 18053
SGN202A Constitution1
SGN202B Constitution 18121
3crde + 3gun3+3
63
93+3
153
183+3
243
273+3
333
363+3
423
45









This assumes you go ten turns straight trading B-range center broadsides and somehow take NO damage. Constitution may seem to have a slightly stronger punch on paper, but if she goes toe-to-toe with a true SOL she's not going to be throwing those punches very long due to the glass jaw of her frigate hull. Similarly, 1782 Egmont and 1808 Castor seem overpowered, but the trade-off is they're knockout punchers with short reaches, so you can bob-and-weave at long range and wear 'em down with cheapshots.

[Bligh]

Thanks for that DB. A very useful set of tables.
Rob.

[Diamondback]

The rub is, it's predicated on a lot of assumptions--I haven't baked in damage taken in reply. A frigate punching above weight class is still only a frigate--and even a Full Carronades version of Swan is still an "I Fart In Your General Direction". (Well, not *me* farting... I could probably clear a gundeck with my gastric Weapons of Mass Disgustion, but you get my point.)

The scary thing is, Egmont would kill a First Rate in two or three shots with grape.

[Bligh]

:shock:


Good thing that only the American and Brits had the use of them then.:wink:
Rob.

[Joshamee Gibbs]

I was surprised to see that although upgraded with an elementary gun sight it was quoin operated, and still had no elevating screw.
Rob.:question:

QUoin operated??
you'd need a lot of QUarters to make a thing that size work!
:wink::takecover:
:rum:

[Diamondback]

*Gibbs-slap*

Quoins are the wedges they used for elevation control before somebody convinced the cheap, stupid bastards in party frocks to take a step into the modern world with the aforementioned elevation screws.

:p

[Joshamee Gibbs]

Snigger
:Wink:

[Diamondback]

Gibbs being the gray-haired old fart here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boY7i11aYRA

[Joshamee Gibbs]

One of my favourite shows

[Diamondback]

Jethro Gibbs is one of my heroes--I consider his Rules words to live by.

http://jp12.r0tt.com/l_b1f0ffc0-77f7-11e2-aa13-7304bc500012.jpg

[Bligh]

QUoin operated??
you'd need a lot of QUarters to make a thing that size work!
:wink::takecover:
:rum:

Good one John.
I set that up nearly three months ago, and you are the first one to spring it.
Rob.

[Joshamee Gibbs]

I was wondering if you wedged the phrase in on purpose

[Bligh]

I was wondering if you wedged the phrase in on purpose

Indeed you must still be in tune with me from the weekend John.
Neil has just told me about your suggestion about a gift to the Air Museum, identical to the Committee's.
Great minds think alike eh!
Rob.