You get ONE Pick, Wave 4 Edition

[Diamondback]

With two new waves announced since the last run, it's time for another round of You Pick 'Em. This time, we're gonna do things a little differently...

The question: Let's say Ares gives you a pick of ONE new sculpt--not a rate or a type but a specific design (say, not "Second Rate" but has to be as specific as "1797 Dreadnought 98")--and ONE reprint ship of an existing sculpt. What do you pick?

THE CATCH: You need to write a little telling us WHY your picks are Must Haves--this is an Essay section, anything like "it's obvious" or "because reasons" will result in your vote NOT being counted. Treat this thread like Rob's given you ONE chance to make your best possible arguments for each of your picks.

ONE sculpt and ONE name per category, please--try to vote twice and your vote will not be counted.

Where we are so far... Bold are official releases, regular text are my personal stand-ins

Rate/DescBritishFrenchAmericanSpanish
110+ 3-4-deck SOL2x SGN108 Generic 1st Rate6x SGN106 OceanN/A6x SGN112 Meregildos
100 3-deck SOL4x SGN108 Generic 1st Rate
1x SGN201 HMS VictoryN/A
90-98 3-deck SOLSGN201 as 1810 BoyneN/A
80/84 2-deck SOL2x Wave 4 Tonnant/Bucentaure 804x Wave 4 Tonnant/Bucentaure 80N/A
Large 74 2-deck SOLSGN104 as Triumph/Valiant

Middling 74 2-deck SOL
2x SGN102 1782 Temeraire
1x SGN111 Gautier 74
1x SGN111 as Upgun Bahama
4x SGN102 1782 Temeraire
SGN104 as 1778 Annibal
N/A
2x SGN102 1782 Temeraire
3x SGN111 Gautier
1x SGN111 as Upgun Bahama


68- to Common 74 2-deck SOL
6x SGN104 Slade Common 74
2x SGN104 Slade Common 74
N/A



62-66 2-deck SOL
SGN104 as St. Albans/Worcester 64
1x SGN109 1765 Artesien 64
1x SGN109 as Caton
6x Wave 4 British 64
4x SGN109 1765 Artesien
N/A



56-60 2-decker






56-60 frigate


1x SGN202 USS Constitution



44-50 2-decker
4x SGN110 Portland
2x SGN110 Portland
4x Wave 4 Groignard 900-ton EIM
1x Wave 4 Groignard 900-ton EIM (BHR)



44-50 frigate






38-42 frigate
2x SGN105 Hebe
4x SGN105 Hebe




30-36 frigate
2x SGN101 1777 French 32's
6x SGN103 1773 Amazon
2x Wave 4 Mahonesa
4x SGN101 1777 French 32's
2x SGN103 1773 Amazon

2x SGN101 1777 French 32's
4x Wave 4 Mahonesa


26-28 corvette/post-ship






20-24 corvette/post-ship






14-18 ship-sloop
2x SGN107 1766 Swan
2x SGN107 1766 Swan
2x SGN107 1766 Swan



14-18 brig-sloop






12 or less gun-brig

[Diamondback]

New Sculpts


Sculpt
# Req.
Specific Ships


UK Mars-cl. Large 74
1
HMS Mars - Capn Duff


SW Dristigheten 64
1
Dristigheten - TexaS


SP Montanes 80
1
Neptuno - Nightmoss


1748 HMS Seahorse 24
1
HMS Seahorse - scourge







UK Cruizer
1
1806 HMS Grasshopper - John Acton

[Diamondback]

Reprints
SKU/Existing sculptExisting ReleasesRequested Reprints
SGN101 1777 French 12# 32101A 1783 HMS Concorde/1796 HMS Unite
101B 1779 Hermione/1786 Inconstante
101C 1793 Sirena/1795 Ifigenia
KS01 1777 Concorde/1778 Junon
SS01
SGN102 Temeraire-family 74102A 1796 HMS Impetueux/1798 HMS Spartiate
102B 1784 Commerce de Bordeaux/1788 Duguay-Trouin
102C 1806 Heroe/1808 Argonauta
KS02 1785 Fougueux/1791 Redoutable
SS02Tigre - Capn Duff
SGN103 1773 Amazon 12# 32103A 1798 Embuscade/1801 Succes
103B 1779 HMS Cleopatra/1779 HMS Iphigenia
103C 1780 HMS Orpheus/1780 HMS Ampion
KS03 1780 HMS Juno/1785 HMS Castor
SS03
SGN104 Slade Common 74104A 1795 Berwick/1801 Swiftsure
104B 1760 HMS Bellona/1781 HMS Goliath
104C 1785 HMS Zealous/1760 HMS Superb
KS04 1786 HMS Bellerophon/1783 HMS Defiance
SS04
SGN105 Hebe and related 38/40s105A 1793 Carmagnole/1791 Sibylle
105B 1785 Proserpine/1783 Dryade
105C 1794 HMS Sybille/1796 HMS Amelia*HMS Trincomalee - Herkybird
HMS Shannon - TexaS
SGN106 Ocean 118 First Rate106A 1793 Montagne/1788 Commerce de Marseilles
106B 1791 Orient/1808 Austerlitz
106C 1805 Imperial/1802 Republique Francaise
SGN107 1767 Swan 14 ship-sloop107A 1767 HMS Swan/1778 HMS Fairy
107B 1782 Alligator/1780 Fortune
107C Thorn/USS AtalantaHMS Kingfisher - John Acton
SGN108/201 British First Rates108A 1786 Royal Sovereign/1762 HMS Britannia
108B 1788 HMS Royal George/1804 HMS Hibernia
108C 1790 HMS Queen Charlotte/1795 HMS Ville de Paris
201 1765 HMS Victory
SGN202/1xx? Humphreys "44"202 USS Constitution
SGN109 FR 1765 Artesien 64
stretched to include Caton 64(names embargoed)
SGN110 UK Portland 50(names embargoed)
SGN111 SP Gautier 74s
(SJN et al, stretched to include Bahama)(names embargoed)
SGN112 SP Meregildos 112 SOL(names embargoed)
Wave 4 British 64(names embargoed)
Wave 4 SP Mahonesa 344 Spanish
2 British
Wave 4 FR Tonnant 804 French
2 British
Wave 4 FR Groignard 900-ton EIM4 French
1 American
1 US "what if?"
*Trincomalee was launched after game cutoff, but I think an exception can be made for a Museum Ship

[Diamondback]

reserved for general-purpose "spare data space"







Open Season, folks!

[Comte de Brueys]

The new sculpt I want to pick is a 80 2-deck SOL:

Bucentaure was an 80-gun ship of the line of the French Navy, and the lead ship of her class. She was the flagship of Vice-Admiral Latouche Tréville, who died on board on 18 August 1804.
Bucentaure at Trafalgar

Vice-Admiral Villeneuve hoisted his flag on 6 November 1804. Bucentaure hosted the Franco-Spanish war council while sheltered from the British fleet at Cadiz. The vote was to remain in safe waters (a decision later overruled by Admiral Villeneuve) During the council, Spanish general Escaño complained that the atmospheric pressure was descending (a sign of approaching storms). French vice-admiral Magon famously retorted "the thing descending here is braveness". This offended Admiral Gravina and other Spanish officers who did not oppose later the imprudent order of taking to sea.

At the Battle of Trafalgar, on 21 October 1805, she was commanded by Captain Jean-Jacques Magendie. Admiral Nelson's HMS Victory, leading the weather column of the British fleet, broke the French line just astern of Bucentaure and just ahead of Redoutable. Victory raked her less protected stern and the vessel lost 197 men and 85 were wounded (including Captain Magendie); Admiral Villeneuve was lucky to survive, but this effectively put Bucentaure out of most of the fight. After three hours of fighting, she surrendered to Captain James Atcherly of the Marines from HMS Conqueror.

[Comte de Brueys]

As a reprint I want to see the Temeraire class:

(Peuple) Souverain was a 74-gun ship of the line of the French Navy, lead ship of her class.

She took part in the Battle of the Chesapeake, in 1781. In 1792, she was renamed Peuple Souverain ("Sovereign People").

In 1798, she took part in the battle of the Nile. A shot from HMS Orion (at the rear of the British line) cut her cable and she drifted out of position, later in the battle being captured by the British. She was subsequently recommissioned in the Royal Navy as HMS Guerrier, but was in too bad a shape to serve in the high sea, so she was used as a guard ship.

[Capn Duff]

Ok hope I done this correct

Reprint 102a Hms Impeteux

Temeraire class, can have sculpt of America( sister ship of Impetuex ) and Tigre both built in same yards, plus Tigre captured and used as Hms Tigre Rn used captured Impetuex/America as templates for America class and Northumberland, Revenge and Milford classes

New sculpt Mars class 74
Gives Hms Mars, fought at Trafalgar, Hms Centaur and Hms Conqueror a modified mars class also fought at Trafalgar
Pretty sure we could get more out of this sculpt from more knowlegable people

[Diamondback]

Sven, Bucentaure is just an improved Tonnant--if memory serves, I've seen draughts of both and there were only miinor detail differences, less than say a Bellona and an Elizabeth (Wave 4 has both Tonnant- and Bucentaure-class names on same sculpt).

Chris, would you mind citing a source on Revenge and Milford as Impetuex clones? Northumberland was another Temeraire clone, but actually copied from a different class-member IIRC (little to no real difference), and when you get to a nuts-and-bolts level, Revenge's draught I'd venture looks closer to the rest of Sir John Henslow's designs like Mars/Conqueror than to the Temeraire family. Barralier's Milford seems somehow an odd duck, though. I actually have most of the relevant draughts linked in this thread:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?2121-Stretching-Sculpts-SGN104-1760-Slade-Common-74-s

Not trying to argue, gents, just trying to help you make best possible use of your choices. :)

[Capn Duff]

Hi DB was looking through this list
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_line_of_the_Royal_Navy

1785 to 1830 section.

Not got many true naval reference books is all so I will happily stand corrected if not correct

[Diamondback]

Started from that same list, Chris, but I've been burned enough by bad info on Wikipedia before to not rely on it without independent confirmation.

@Sven, Souverain seems to be a much older and unrelated design (see http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?2516-Stretching-Sculpts-SGN102-1782-French-Temeraire-74-s&highlight=stretching+sculpts+sgn102 ), but if that's your final answer I'll duly record it as such. Chris, yours too, thought you need to pick between America (which became HMS Impeteux after the original burned in dock post-capture) and Tigre on the RP.

[Capn Duff]

In that case Tigre, I already done America using a spare HMS Impetuex :happy:

[Diamondback]

Chris, I'm also going to need you to pick one of the Marses and why before I can fully record that. :)

Link back to the old thread for reference:
http://sailsofglory.org/showthread.php?2571-You-get-ONE-ship

[Capn Duff]

HMS Mars as choice.

HMS Mars fought a ship to ship duel againt French 74 Hercule which she won, prominent in Spithead mutiny wanting more concessions, took part in Trafalgar lost her Captain (Captain Duff) served untill end of Napoleonic wars. At Trafalgar, because of Captain Duff, majority of crew of Scottish extraction, quite unusual for the time.

[TexaS]

Repaint:
HMS Shannon
The Leda-class Frigates were a copy of the Hébé-class frigates and should work as a repaint of the existing miniature.
HMS Shannon's story of meeting USS Chesapeake is stirring and heroic. The two ships met in a chivalrous manner one-on-one in a way most fitting for a game of Sails of Glory. It would also give British players a total of four (counting a reverse) 40 gun ships to get equal to the French fleet.

For a new ship it's harder. I do want the Santissima and the Indefatigable would be great even though I have built my own. Then there's the British second rates but I still think I will have to give my voice to a ship that no one else will choose.

New sculpt:
Dristigheten 1785
It was of a class of ships with 60 to 64 guns (Dristigheten had 64. Threedecks.org seems to have it wrong) designed to be able to support the army by being a stable gun platform with heavy guns and be able to sail close to land and navigate the sometimes shallow Swedish archipelago. It was made by the very good designer Fredrik Henrik af Chapman, and it's quite different from the other ships of the time with it's less protected upper gundeck. Dristigheten is one of the most famous Swedish ships of the line and led the Swedish line in the Battle of Viborg Bay or the Viborg gauntlet, one of the largest historical naval battles. About 200 Russian vessels and about 400 Swedish vessels.

I would want about ten of this one and I could swap base cards and use it for the whole class. One of those was even sold and used as an east indiaman before being bought back by the navy.

[Herkybird]

I would ask for a Leda class frigate, as it is the most common British frigate type not to have a model. I also have been aboard HMS Trincomalee (sigh!) and have a certain...brand loyalty consequently! :pray:

[TexaS]

Do you mean Trincomalee?

I wouldn't say no to a Lively either...

[Diamondback]

I would ask for a Leda class frigate, as it is the most common British frigate type not to have a model. I also have been aboard HMS Terpsichore (sigh!) and have a certain...brand loyalty consequently! :pray:
Richard, Terpsichore was a 1773 Amazon, I think already released, and my money's on the Ledas being Hebe reprints since they're cosmetically identical--question to you is, which specific ship since both Terp and any Leda would both be reprints?

Folks, on any given reprint there will beat most four slots for new ship names--we need you to make your best possible case why that ship should be considered over and above all others for one of those four spots. :) (Imagine that you're before the Admiralty, pleading for why your chosen ship should be preserved for posterity rather than broken up for firewood.)

[Herkybird]

Yes, I am a fool! I put the wrong ship in! - I corrected it in edit, sorry for that!

[Diamondback]

I throw the BS Flag on your Fool Card, amigo--we all make honest mistakes every now and again. :)

[Nightmoss]

I'm probably not going to get this right, but here goes? Main rationale to include these ships is the Battle of Trafalgar, Spanish representation.

New Sculpt: Spanish Ship Neptuno

Neptuno was an 80-gun Montañes-class ship of the line of the Spanish Navy. She was built in 1795 and took part in the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. She fought with the Franco-Spanish fleet in the battle of Trafalgar, and was wrecked in its aftermath.
Neptuno was built at Ferrol and launched in 1795. She entered service in time to support an attempt to unite with a French force and land troops in England, but the Spanish fleet under Admiral José de Córdoba y Ramos was intercepted and engaged by a British fleet under Sir John Jervis. Neptuno did not take part in the battle, having been sent into port beforehand. Several years later she was in a Spanish port when the combined Franco-Spanish fleet under Vice-Admiral Pierre-Charles Villeneuve arrived, having sailed to the West Indies and back, and been engaged by a British fleet in the Battle of Cape Finisterre. Neptuno joined the fleet in her attempt to reach Brest, but the plan to join with another French fleet failed and Neptuno ended up with the rest of the fleet, blockaded in Cadiz by a British fleet under Lord Nelson. More information here: http://www.todoababor.es/listado/navio-neptuno3.htm

Repaint: Spanish Ship Monarca or Montanes

The Monarca was a 74-gun third-rate ship of the line of the Spanish Navy. She was ordered by a royal order of 28 September 1791, built in the Reales Astilleros de Esteiro shipyard and launched on 17 March 1794. Designed by Romero Landa and belonging to the Montañés-class (a subset or modification of the San Ildefonsino class), her guns were distributed along two decks, with 28 24-pounder in his first battery, 30 18-pounders in her second battery, 12 8-pounders on her upper deck and four 8-pounders on her bowcastle. More information here: http://www.todoababor.es/listado/navio-monarca2.htm

[Diamondback]

Jim, we don't have a Montanes sculpt yet. :( Real Fenix was Rayo's sister, but Rayo was rebuilt with a third gun-deck and Fenix captured by the RN (becoming HMS Gibraltar) before she could get the same treatment. (This pair's gonna be right nasty buggers to do, and if we treat Cape Ortegal as part of Trafalgar we need both.)

[Nightmoss]

Jim, we don't have a Montanes sculpt yet. :( Real Fenix was Rayo's sister, but Rayo was rebuilt with a third gun-deck and Fenix captured by the RN (becoming HMS Gibraltar) before she could get the same treatment. (This pair's gonna be right nasty buggers to do, and if we treat Cape Ortegal as part of Trafalgar we need both.)

OK, so I changed my choices by editing my post above. New sculpt = Neptuno. Repaint = Montanes or Monarca using the existing Argonauta sculpt (probably a cheeky choice, but hey nothing ventured). Again the point is getting more ships from another nation on the table. You know, for some variety?!

[Diamondback]

Jim, you do realize existing Argonauta is a reflag Temeraire, right, not a Spanish build? :)

[Capn Duff]

I seen three French Termeraires that became Spanish

Pluton (Fr) Spanish in 1808 renamed Pluton hulked in 1816
Argonaute (Fr) Spanish in 1806 renamed Argonauta, became a prison hulk.
Heros (Fr) Spanish in 1808 renamed Heroe

Info taken from French Warships in the age of sail by Rif Winfield and Stephen Roberts

[Nightmoss]

Jim, you do realize existing Argonauta is a reflag Temeraire, right, not a Spanish build? :)

Yes, I know. That's why I implied my suggestion was being cheeky. Following up on Chris's suggestion you could substitute Heroe for the Monarca/Montanes?

I just want more Spanish ships on the table. :wink:

[Diamondback]

Chris, dead match for the data I had from ThreeDecks. FYI, the Spanish-language "list of Spanish ships of the line" is much better than the English counterpart, I wish somebody'd just straight-translate the former and junk the latter. (I had to call my old college Spanish prof and ask her to help me with translation...)

The Spanish reflags on SGN101 and 102 were a quick and expedient toe-hold that I had suggested as a "preview of coming attractions" much like how WizKids liked to have a super-rare pack in each of their Pirates releases be a sneak peek at the next set.

"Be patient--help is On The Way!"--George W. Bush :p

[scourge]

Let's add to the bottom of the list: 6th rates, sloops, and brigs please.

There are limitless scenarios involving smaller ships protecting or raiding convoys of merchants. Or 2-3 of these smaller ships -vs- a larger frigate.

New sculpt: HMS Seahorse - a 24 gun sixth rate. 1748-1784. Later used by the EIC as an 'extra ship'. Historically interesting career + Midshipman Nelson! and with a repaint it would round out the East India merchant side of the fleet.


Repaint: HMS Shannon - This gives us half of Shannon-v-Chesapeake.

[Herkybird]

I second HMS Shannon!

[Capn Duff]

For the Shannon, what actual painting would be needed?
I got a spare Hebe which is down to be her so will paint as directed here

[Diamondback]

Given how poorly documented ship color schemes of the era are... Well, these paintings should give you some ideas to guide you.

http://www.oilpaintingsgallery.com/paintings/The-USS-Chesapeake-and-the-HMS-Shannon.asp
http://www.penobscotmarinemuseum.org/pbho-1/collection/hms-shannon-captures-uss-chesapeake-june-1-1813
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_USS_Chesapeake
http://www.robin-brooks.com/special-ships/marine-paintings-shannon-chesapeake.shtml

[Capn Duff]

Thanks DB, first look gives me a dark brown to black with a yellow stripe running through the gunports

[Bligh]

I am happy to throw in my vote for the Shannon too.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

So, am I still allowed a repaint? I only see my name for a new sculpt?

[Bligh]

My reprint is not down for Shannon yet either Jim. I think we must give DB time to get around to it all.
Rob.

[Nightmoss]

My reprint is not down for Shannon yet either Jim. I think we must give DB time to get around to it all.
Rob.

I think I may have suggested a repaint that was not acceptable. We'll have to see what DB says?

[Diamondback]

Guys, will catch up when I can--annoying relatives whose sole purpose in life seems to be cheesing me off seem to insist on keeping me as AFK as possible today. (Part of my thinking was, I'm hoping to get things to like a dozen or so Candidates per sculpt, then finally wed it down to 3 or 4 "Most Wanted" to make up A and B sides for future runs. Shannon's already on the list, I just screwed up and slotted it in with SGN106 when I meant 105. Will fix tonight when I'm back online and the B****y Old Crab stops snapping at me every time I turn around...

Jim, I will record your reprint as stated if that's your final answer, but I wanted to be absolutely certain even though IMO the Wave 3 Spanish 74s, while not "close enough" for the San Leandro/Ildefonso/Montanes family in my eyes, are probably still closer than the Temeraires. Wanted you to have all the data available to me to consider before you Drop the Hammer. It will be noted as "AEA," but it WILL be noted.

[Nightmoss]

Guys, will catch up when I can--annoying relatives whose sole purpose in life seems to be cheesing me off seem to insist on keeping me as AFK as possible today. (Part of my thinking was, I'm hoping to get things to like a dozen or so Candidates per sculpt, then finally wed it down to 3 or 4 "Most Wanted" to make up A and B sides for future runs. Shannon's already on the list, I just screwed up and slotted it in with SGN106 when I meant 105. Will fix tonight when I'm back online and the B****y Old Crab stops snapping at me every time I turn around...

Jim, I will record your reprint as stated if that's your final answer, but I wanted to be absolutely certain even though IMO the Wave 3 Spanish 74s, while not "close enough" for the San Leandro/Ildefonso/Montanes family in my eyes, are probably still closer than the Temeraires. Wanted you to have all the data available to me to consider before you Drop the Hammer. It will be noted as "AEA," but it WILL be noted.

Thanks DB. Maybe I should hold off then? I'm not in a rush. Just wanted to clarify whether or not what I put forth was in the ballpark or not?

[Diamondback]

IMO Temeraire to Ildefonso is a Bridge Too Far, San Juan Nepomuceno slightly less so.

Drawings from top to bottom Temeraire (Pompee), Ildefonso, Bahama (if memory serves basis of Ares sculpt, over my caution--those old Gautier 74's are a BUGGER trying to find plans for):
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/551/media-551320/large.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Plano_navio_74_ca%C3%B1ones.jpg
http://collections.rmg.co.uk/mediaLib/551/media-551191/large.jpg

Remember what I said about how sometimes Things I Know But Cannot Say really SUCK?

[Diamondback]

Also, based on issues on a similar thread on the Drome, let's expand this to one nomination per sculpt on reprints so we can get a bigger pool.

I knew Shannon was going to be very popular, and while I'm only attaching names for "first to nominate" anyone's free to try to make a better business case for a previously nominated ship if it's your choice.

Fair warning, the Groignard 900-tonners like BHR I'm having some trouble running down the identities of all nine (we've accounted for six or seven). Groignard also designed similar EIM's up to 300 tons heavier and I'm not sure if they're "close enough", so those might be room for expansion too.

[TexaS]

I knew Shannon was going to be very popular, and while I'm only attaching names for "first to nominate" anyone's free to try to make a better business case for a previously nominated ship if it's your choice.
Yes! I got that one! :wink:

I have more new ships I would like. Come on, folks, give us some more good choices.
I like the 24 gun corvette Idea.

[John Acton]

I'd like to throw my hat into the ring for the brig-sloop HMS Grasshopper (1806). In general I would like to see more small ships and what can be done with their differing sailing qualities. In particular I'd like to see the Grasshopper because she had a dramatic career, taking several prizes and serving in three different navies over her lifetime. Also at 30m she's a touch over your hard limit and has a raft of cruizer class sisters for the second side of the card.

Repaints I'd like to see HMS Kingfisher, a very prolific small ship hunter and instigator of the battle of St Domingo.

[Diamondback]

Pete, Kingfisher's a Swan, right?

[John Acton]

She is.

[Diamondback]

Done and done, amigo. Ares needs I figure at least four new names for a re-run, and two for a re-flag... so I think in order to get there we want around a dozen or so candidates per reprint sculpt before things can open up into a "Pick 1-2 Per Sculpt" poll.

[John Acton]

I may have an unhealthy amount of cold and flu medication in my system, so I may be a little addled right now. Was that a flat no? Or a request for more sloops to make it viable?

[Diamondback]

No, amigo, the first part means your requests are logged. :) The second is "clarification of intent" for the community as a whole trying to remind everybody that instead of my usual "ONE ship, PERIOD" this round is "one per sculpt".

Had those kinda days too, so I feel yer pain on this one. :)

[csadn]

I confess: I don't quite understand the "spreadsheet" in the OP, so you'll forgive me if the following is a bit disjointed.

I'm still keen on having sets for the "Great Lakes wars" of the War of 1812 (to include Lake Champlain -- Plattsburgh naval action, and perhaps a AmRev Valcour Island scenario). Plus, let's face it: The "big ship" period of the Age Of Sail ended October 21, 1805 (and was none too healthy before then -- this is what happens when a revolution kills everyone with actual sailing experience).

To that end:

Reprint: _Swan_ -- it covers the ship-rigged types used in the area.

New: Something in a ~10-gun brig; probably _Niagara_ [ http://www.flagshipniagara.org/us-brig-niagara/flagship-niagara-about/ ].

[Diamondback]

Chris, Post 1 just compares quantities and rates on the existing or announced sculpts--for example, the British have 5 100-gun three-deckers and two 110-120-gunners. Bold are existing releases, un-bolded are niches that could be filled with reuse of existing sculpts. That help?

For your reprint are you specifically nominating HMS Swan herself, or just any member of the class? (I *KNOW* you get the importance of Tell The Story, so you're gonna have to do better than that, buddy. :P )
New... could be problematic, as we're stuck with a 28-meter "floor" on Gun Deck length, and still need six "broadly similar" names on a new candidate sculpt for it to get produced. Most of the lakers and similar-size outside the oceangoing UK RN are one- to three-offs... we're having a bugger of a time coming up with reasonable-numbers French counterparts for both Swan and the Cruizers (latter, I stand by my assertion that only a complete idiot would strike from consideration just on their importance in War of 1812 and the Mauritius Campaign alone).

[John Acton]

Well there's the Cormoran and then...... good point.

[csadn]

Chris, Post 1 just compares quantities and rates on the existing or announced sculpts--for example, the British have 5 100-gun three-deckers and two 110-120-gunners. Bold are existing releases, un-bolded are niches that could be filled with reuse of existing sculpts. That help?

A bit -- having to scroll up and down, and remember what I was scrolling for is a PITA. I may have to whip out the ol' pencil and paper....


For your reprint are you specifically nominating HMS Swan herself, or just any member of the class? (I *KNOW* you get the importance of Tell The Story, so you're gonna have to do better than that, buddy. :P )

Something in the class, or more likely something close to it -- see next.


New... could be problematic, as we're stuck with a 28-meter "floor" on Gun Deck length, and still need six "broadly similar" names on a new candidate sculpt for it to get produced. Most of the lakers and similar-size outside the oceangoing UK RN are one- to three-offs... we're having a bugger of a time coming up with reasonable-numbers French counterparts for both Swan and the Cruizers (latter, I stand by my assertion that only a complete idiot would strike from consideration just on their importance in War of 1812 and the Mauritius Campaign alone).

Therein lies the problem -- trying to find info on the small ships; they were even worse about "doing the paperwork" than WW1 acft. units. In some cases, all I have is a name -- no drawings exist. And the less said of the oddball histories of some ships... for ex.: How many of the "British" ships at Plattsburgh were built by the US, and "opportunistically acquired"?

The *importance* of the small ships is undeniable, save by complete idiots. Plattsburgh, in connection with Baltimore and New Orleans, demonstrated that even after three years of blockade, the British still couldn't break the US defenses, forcing Britain to accept status-quo-ante-bellum instead of uti possedetis. Put-In-Bay (Lake Erie) shut Britain out of Lake Erie (and with it, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and most of New York state) for good. The frigate and sloop duels were flashy (which is why they get all the attention), but they weren't war-winners.